which primer ? - Page 2

Marco Califo · October 31, 2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Marco,

Actually the #41 cups are not thicker. CCI told me they are standard CCI 450 (small rifle magnum) primers with a shorter anvil inserted to reduce their sensitivity to the military spec.

Quote:

Small Rifle CCI
400 020” 1753” 109”
450 025” 1750” 113”
BR4 .025” 1755” 109”

Thanks Unclenick, referencing the chart above, the 450's do have a thicker cup than the OP's topic 400's. So the #41's are thicker than the 400's, and the same thickness as 450's. I have noticed that 400's are not as strong as #41's when shooting hotter loads. Now I think I know why.

**Unclenick** · October 31, 2012, 03:06 PM

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant only that CCI didn't achieve the reduced military sensitivity (as compared to the regular 450 primer) by making the 450 cup thicker. I suppose the thicker cup in the 450 as compared to the 400 would reduce its relative sensitivity if the priming mixes were the same. However, Alan Jones said that in 1989 they (he worked at CCI) altered the magnum priming mix to better ignite the spherical powders available then (mostly the ST. Mark's Powders Western Cannon series sold in canister grade as Hodgdon and Winchester spherical numbers). So I don't actually know how the 400 and 450 sensitivity compare in an H test due to the formulation difference adding a variable. The thicker cup will have better pressure deformation resistance, for sure.

4runnerman · October 31, 2012, 05:28 PM

I used rem 7 1/2 for years till i made the switch to CCI-BR4's. Never had a problem with 7 1/2's either. I just picked up velocity and accuracy with the CCI's. I don't run a real hot load in the 223,Maybe 3100fps.

W.E.G. · October 31, 2012, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Here is the verbage directly from the box:

Thanks!

mohr308 · November 1, 2012, 01:06 AM

I will always use the CCI41 primers for my AR loads. when I started loading I was using the CCI 400's, I took the time to redevelop my loads with the new primers. Better safe then sorry!

rebs · November 1, 2012, 05:26 AM

How many of you guys use the CCI 450 magnum primer in your AR loads and why ? Isn't it kind of dangerous using a magnum primer in a round that calls for a standard primer ?

Jimro · November 1, 2012, 11:24 AM

rebs,

Not dangerous at all. The magnum primer is safer as it is less likely to experience a slam fire, and often a better way to initiate ball powders. I'm using the KVB-556M (the M stands for "magnum" and the box says Small Rifle Magnum on it) and have no complaints as to how it lights off 2000-MR powder.

If the 450's weren't so bloody expensive compared to the Wolf I would have absolutely no qualms about using them.

As long as you do a normal load workup with a powder in appropriate burn range for the bullet you are using everything is just fine.

Jimro

LarryFlew · November 1, 2012, 12:03 PM

plus another for #41 primers.

4runnerman · November 1, 2012, 12:25 PM

I have 4 rifles i load for now. I have never used anything other than Mag or Bench rest primers in any of them.( Since i did a test ) never a issue with pressure,just better burn rate and more accuracy

Oh Ya and never a dud yet

W.E.G. · November 1, 2012, 02:54 PM

The use of a magnum primer in .223/5.56 is not the slightest bit dangerous.

Back in the 90's, I chronographed loads identical loads of various flavors, with the only difference being different primers of all sorts, standard, magnum, Federal, Winchester, CCI.

No difference in velocity over the chronograph whatsoever.

Its not even close to rocket science.
Not even Silly Putty science.

So far as pressure issues in the .223/5.56 goes, a primer is a primer.
If it sparks, its good, and its all that any other primer is.

Only difference is that the thin-cup primers will pierce, and mess up your gun.
Don't use 'em.

4runnerman · November 2, 2012, 06:37 AM

No difference in velocity over the chronograph whatsoever

WEG- I have to dissagree with you there. I went from 7 1/2 rem to CCI-BR4 and picked up over 50 fps. Along with tighter groups also

**Unclenick** · November 2, 2012, 09:43 AM

Charles Petty had an article in which he ran 24 grains of RL10X under a 52 grain A-max in his .223 Cooper Phoenix and got 159 fps difference between the Federal 205 and the Remington 7½. His results are below.

Notice that he averages 25 shots for each loading. In this kind of testing you can't just shoot three or five and expect to have an accurate representation of the average. MV SD's are typically too high for that to work out well.

As to using the magnum primers in non-magnum cases, the safety side of it is just working the load up with them in the first place. The performance side is to realize the function of a magnum primer is to produce enough extra gas to adequately pressure a large case full of powder so the powder gets a good start to its burn. If you have a smaller case, but one that is less completely filled with powder, then that extra pressurization can be helpful to that as well. Here's a good primer on primers.

For those regarding the SD's in the above with envy, note again what I mentioned earlier: Federal now has a military sensitivity version of the 205M primer available, the GMM205MAR. The KVB-556M's are also very consistent.

Wyoredman · November 2, 2012, 10:33 AM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492869

Above is a thread about a velocity test I did with CFE223 and CCI 400 vs. CCI 450 primers.

It is pretty interesting. Check it out.

P.S. I found that the 450s give me higher average velocity, lower extreme spread and lower SD than the 400s.

**Unclenick** · November 2, 2012, 11:37 AM

Yep. Follow the link in my last post for an explanation of why that happens. Spherical propellant. Excess room in the case. Both prescriptions for 450's.

4runnerman · November 2, 2012, 12:03 PM

Great Chart Nick. I will have to retest- I gain around 50 fps going fromRem 7 1/2 to CCI-BR4's. According to the chart i should have lost. Eye's are starting to fail me

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 12:36 PM

4runnerman,

Powders respond differently to primers, especially pushing different bullets. Unless you are specifically loading Re10X and that Amax I wouldn't worry about the chart.

Jimro

4runnerman · November 2, 2012, 01:01 PM

Thanks Jimro- I know i put over 50 rounds over the chrono and it seemed faster. That was 25.5 Varget and a 60 gn V-Max

**Unclenick** · November 2, 2012, 02:43 PM

Also, one of the points in the Alan Jones article is that primer makers change mixes and specs more often than you might realize and without making public notice of it. Rocky Raab's general rule for new lots of any component is to knock 5% of a previously developed and work back up. That only takes 6 shots in 1% steps and 4 shots if you avoid exceeding the more traditional 2% step used to check pressure.

October 31, 2012, 03:06 PM	#27
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant only that CCI didn't achieve the reduced military sensitivity (as compared to the regular 450 primer) by making the 450 cup thicker. I suppose the thicker cup in the 450 as compared to the 400 would reduce its relative sensitivity if the priming mixes were the same. However, Alan Jones said that in 1989 they (he worked at CCI) altered the magnum priming mix to better ignite the spherical powders available then (mostly the ST. Mark's Powders Western Cannon series sold in canister grade as Hodgdon and Winchester spherical numbers). So I don't actually know how the 400 and 450 sensitivity compare in an H test due to the formulation difference adding a variable. The thicker cup will have better pressure deformation resistance, for sure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 31, 2012, 05:28 PM	#28
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I used rem 7 1/2 for years till i made the switch to CCI-BR4's. Never had a problem with 7 1/2's either. I just picked up velocity and accuracy with the CCI's. I don't run a real hot load in the 223,Maybe 3100fps. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 1, 2012, 01:06 AM	#30
mohr308 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2012 Location: Western New York Posts: 466	I will always use the CCI41 primers for my AR loads. when I started loading I was using the CCI 400's, I took the time to redevelop my loads with the new primers. Better safe then sorry! __________________ Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!

November 1, 2012, 11:24 AM	#32
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	rebs, Not dangerous at all. The magnum primer is safer as it is less likely to experience a slam fire, and often a better way to initiate ball powders. I'm using the KVB-556M (the M stands for "magnum" and the box says Small Rifle Magnum on it) and have no complaints as to how it lights off 2000-MR powder. If the 450's weren't so bloody expensive compared to the Wolf I would have absolutely no qualms about using them. As long as you do a normal load workup with a powder in appropriate burn range for the bullet you are using everything is just fine. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 1, 2012, 12:25 PM	#34
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I have 4 rifles i load for now. I have never used anything other than Mag or Bench rest primers in any of them.( Since i did a test ) never a issue with pressure,just better burn rate and more accuracy Oh Ya and never a dud yet __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 1, 2012, 05:26 AM	#31
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	How many of you guys use the CCI 450 magnum primer in your AR loads and why ? Isn't it kind of dangerous using a magnum primer in a round that calls for a standard primer ?

November 1, 2012, 12:03 PM	#33
LarryFlew Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2009 Location: Minnesota CZ fan Posts: 902	plus another for #41 primers.

November 1, 2012, 02:54 PM	#35
W.E.G. Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2007 Location: all over Virginia Posts: 266	The use of a magnum primer in .223/5.56 is not the slightest bit dangerous. Back in the 90's, I chronographed loads identical loads of various flavors, with the only difference being different primers of all sorts, standard, magnum, Federal, Winchester, CCI. No difference in velocity over the chronograph whatsoever. Its not even close to rocket science. Not even Silly Putty science. So far as pressure issues in the .223/5.56 goes, a primer is a primer. If it sparks, its good, and its all that any other primer is. Only difference is that the thin-cup primers will pierce, and mess up your gun. Don't use 'em.

November 2, 2012, 06:37 AM	#36
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	No difference in velocity over the chronograph whatsoever WEG- I have to dissagree with you there. I went from 7 1/2 rem to CCI-BR4 and picked up over 50 fps. Along with tighter groups also __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 2, 2012, 09:43 AM	#37
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Charles Petty had an article in which he ran 24 grains of RL10X under a 52 grain A-max in his .223 Cooper Phoenix and got 159 fps difference between the Federal 205 and the Remington 7½. His results are below. Notice that he averages 25 shots for each loading. In this kind of testing you can't just shoot three or five and expect to have an accurate representation of the average. MV SD's are typically too high for that to work out well. As to using the magnum primers in non-magnum cases, the safety side of it is just working the load up with them in the first place. The performance side is to realize the function of a magnum primer is to produce enough extra gas to adequately pressure a large case full of powder so the powder gets a good start to its burn. If you have a smaller case, but one that is less completely filled with powder, then that extra pressurization can be helpful to that as well. Here's a good primer on primers. For those regarding the SD's in the above with envy, note again what I mentioned earlier: Federal now has a military sensitivity version of the 205M primer available, the GMM205MAR. The KVB-556M's are also very consistent. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 2, 2012, 10:33 AM	#38
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,352	http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492869 Above is a thread about a velocity test I did with CFE223 and CCI 400 vs. CCI 450 primers. It is pretty interesting. Check it out. P.S. I found that the 450s give me higher average velocity, lower extreme spread and lower SD than the 400s. __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams! Last edited by Wyoredman; November 2, 2012 at 12:52 PM.

November 2, 2012, 11:37 AM	#39
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yep. Follow the link in my last post for an explanation of why that happens. Spherical propellant. Excess room in the case. Both prescriptions for 450's. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 2, 2012, 12:03 PM	#40
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Great Chart Nick. I will have to retest- I gain around 50 fps going fromRem 7 1/2 to CCI-BR4's. According to the chart i should have lost. Eye's are starting to fail me __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 2, 2012, 12:36 PM	#41
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	4runnerman, Powders respond differently to primers, especially pushing different bullets. Unless you are specifically loading Re10X and that Amax I wouldn't worry about the chart. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 2, 2012, 01:01 PM	#42
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Thanks Jimro- I know i put over 50 rounds over the chrono and it seemed faster. That was 25.5 Varget and a 60 gn V-Max __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

November 2, 2012, 02:43 PM	#43
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Also, one of the points in the Alan Jones article is that primer makers change mixes and specs more often than you might realize and without making public notice of it. Rocky Raab's general rule for new lots of any component is to knock 5% of a previously developed and work back up. That only takes 6 shots in 1% steps and 4 shots if you avoid exceeding the more traditional 2% step used to check pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle