#4 Buck

Boris Bush · April 1, 2008, 10:36 PM

Well I thought to myself as I stood infront of the buckshot at the store that I always get OO buck or OOO buck. I thought, and put it back and got some #4 buck instead. I got a box of the Estate Cartridge 25 round box. I went to the range the next day and my shotgun throws very even pattterns with any buckshot. When I shot the #4 the pattern size was the same but of course more full and impressed me alot.

I dont use buckshot for hunting (big game atleast), but I do for HD. I think I will swap out the Flite control wad Federal (OObuck) and put some of the #4 as my primary load..........

jrothWA · April 2, 2008, 01:52 AM

quarter-inch diameter pellets, delivered at once, will definitely get someones attention, for a bit.

teeroux · April 2, 2008, 02:15 AM

#4 is good i prefer #1 myself more shot than 00 and 000 and larger than #4

mikenbarb · April 2, 2008, 08:12 AM

I have used #4 buck for the last 10 years for our deer drives.(slug gun for on stand) It puts them down with authority and I shoot Winchester 3 1/2" and it packs a 54 pellet payload.

publius · April 2, 2008, 09:44 PM

If you are going to use buck for HD I would go with #4. For deer I would use #1 although I have used #4 with success.

Ruger4570 · April 2, 2008, 10:34 PM

#4 Buck is about .24 caliber and weigh about 40 grains per pellet, so at around 1200 FPS it is like shooting 27 .22 rimfires at the same instant into a target. I used to load them at times and shot a Snowshoe rabbit one time at about 25 yards or so. He rattled when i picked him up and there were fur balls on the other side of him where the shot took fur right through him (or her) I really doubt I would have a real problem with this load for HD. Considering people have been killed with a single 22 rimfire. I think 27 would surely do the job. I also seriously doubt any bad guy is gonna want to hang around for the 2nd shot much less give me a hard time. I am NOT a Tacky Cool kinda guy, but I think #4 Buck is fine. I don't use a extended magazine in the fear of a running gun battle. I don't intend to "rack the slide" in the hopes it will scare off the bad guy or make him fill his pants. I don't have a sidesaddle containing 75 extra rounds. I simply have a Berreta 390, old model with the pretty wood. If my home was entered, I would most likely load the gun, actually, I have no kids so it is always loaded with the bolt back. I would be on the floor, being that it is something where I am least expected to be. He has a matter of a second or 2 to hit the floor, one way or the other,, his choice to get down on his own, or dead, also his choice. I sure don't expect to need more than one, at most 2 shots to neutralize the threat. Like I said, I am not "cool" much less "tackycool" looking and one that is hopeing someone breaks in so I can show off my masculinity and testerone levels. Also, do you want to face a judge in a self defense (Manslaughter) trial with a gun that looks like John Rambo would own to take out a town? Sorry, I rather go in with my plain old hunting gun complete with the wood plug. Being prepared is one thing, being Tactical and not a Cop is something else. I don't want to spend time in a prision because I read it was OK on some gun forum to look like and act like a Rambo. That is the movies, not real life.

.45 COLT · April 3, 2008, 06:41 AM

#1 Buck is around 40 grains, #4 is about 20. Still a pretty nasty load.

DC

mikenbarb · April 3, 2008, 07:43 AM

Ruger4570, Your thoughts are the same as mine and I agree 100%. I live in a state where the gun laws are out of control and one could have a very hard time with a judge with a rambo style gun. A sporting model would give you a lot better hand of cards to play with arguing your defense.

Ruger4570 · April 3, 2008, 09:21 PM

.45 Colt, I apologize, you are right on the weight. I just seemed to "remember" weighing one at 40 grains. Obviously my memory from 40 years ago is off.

mikenbarb: I have several buddies that are either Prosecuting Attorny's or Defense Attorneys. We often get together after shooting and go to the local pub and have a brew or two and see how many chicken wings we can make disappear.
The discussion of HD has come up many times over the course of the past couple of years. Both types of Attorny's agree, you set up some kind of Rambo gun, in a court, the prosecuters will hang your azz. Remember in a HD situation with the death of a "perp" there will still be a charge of Manslaughter against you. It might be cleared and no harm to you and you go home. But as pointed out to me, if you have some Tacky Cool gun you are going to have some real problems defending yourself as the Prosecuter will most likely lay the grounds, you were prepared, ready to ambush then and HOPED and PRAYED someone would give you the opportunity to shoot them with the excuse of HD.
People watch movies and TV and somehow think that is the way the Law actually works. Nothing could be further from the truth, they are SHOWS, entertainment, made up and nothing more and CERTAINLY not sound legal advice.
I always get a laugh whenever I read about all the tricked out HD shotguns with extended tubes, sidesaddles, lasers and so on. Well you certainly are well prepared for a SHTF situation, you just better pray it doesn't happen to you. Heck, you might even get off with some luck, then look at your legal bill as opposed to the guy with a sporting 28 inch barreled shotgun or a legal pistol defending himself. It is cool to try to be a Rambo, but you will find in the end, you have a problem. If you doubt me, call your Lawyer and spend a little time with him, I suspect he will advise against a Tacky Cool gun too.

.45 COLT · April 3, 2008, 10:00 PM

Ruger 4570 - My uncle was head DA there in Monroe County for many years. That was back when the area was a little more conservative I hear it is now. I lived in your area for a while (Macedon) and he got me out of a couple of scrapes.I was in Wayne County, but he had friends all over the state.

DC

john1911 · April 4, 2008, 10:12 AM

If they are going to "hang your azz out" for using a "Rambo" (belt-fed?) gun, there's a pretty good chance they will do the same thing if you use Grandaddy's 30" double barrel. Some areas of this Country don't want people defending themselves at all.

mikenbarb · April 4, 2008, 12:07 PM

john1911, I live in the great state of New Jersey where you wouldnt want to be in front of a Judge with a tricked out HD weapon, No matter what style. They would take into consideration that it was a true HD situation if you had Grandpas old 12 double because it doesnt have alot of optional equipment installed by the owner.(not saying how much it looks better to the jury) I have seen it time and time again in the court system in this state. Our state gun laws are tough in this state because all the crackheads like to shoot each other.( I dont mind that at all ) But because of their actions it makes people like myself and many others suffer every time we want to buy a new long or handgun. We have a wonderful 6 month wait to buy a handgun. And you have to do that for every one you buy. If you shot an intruder in this state you better hope he had a weapon and he was going to try to kill you. If not, your the one going in pretty silver bracelets. Im sure you would have a better defense if you had a sporting firearm vs. a tricked out model due to the reasons Ruger stated. Im not saying its a no no to have one but I wouldnt want to have the prosecuter hold it up to show the jury members that watch ALOT of movies. (Rambo style = Any weapon altered to enhance tactical use or appearance.)

Bill DeShivs · April 4, 2008, 12:28 PM

It must be awful to live in the liberal north. I pity you guys!
Everything you are saying is completely foreign. A little further to the south, we actually have laws that make sense.

mountainclmbr · April 4, 2008, 02:51 PM

I have some Remington 3-inch #4 Buck. It has 41 pellets. I have not patterned it yet.

Ruger4570 · April 4, 2008, 03:39 PM

Gun laws get even better going West and South as long as you don't wander into California.
NY is about as liberal as anyone can stand and has many restrictive laws, but, there is no law against defending yourself from someone with a weapon. I just have to agree with the consept that in a Court in front of Jurors with a rabid Prosecuter you may have some serious problems with a "tricked out" shotgun. Personally, I don't care if the Tacky Cool guys get their ego off with them all accessorized. I just know, in a HD situation, me with my sporting gun and 3 round magazine against a another with his Rambo special,, who do you REALLY think stands a better chance of acquittal in front of a Jury?

Bill DeShivs · April 4, 2008, 05:40 PM

I would THINK, in the normal sense, that if the shoot was a good one, in your own home-that it really wouldn't matter.

john1911 · April 4, 2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

I would THINK, in the normal sense, that if the shoot was a good one, in your own home-that it really wouldn't matter.

Exactly. A good shoot with a legal weapon should be cleared. Doesn't matter if it's a Revolutionary War era Brown Bess musket or a legally owned full auto gun.

If it's any different, you should look real hard at your elected officials. Might be time to use the ballot box.

Ruger4570 · April 4, 2008, 08:10 PM

Some of you folks should take some time and actually go into a Court room with a case like this, most are open to the public. Honestly, no disrespect to anyone, but Justice in the real world hardly emulates Justice in a movie or on TV. I think a lot of people get their Legal Opinions from watching TV and movies and not from an actual Courtroom. It was a real eyeopener to me my first time.

madcratebuilder · April 5, 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Some of you folks should take some time and actually go into a Court room with a case like this, most are open to the public. Honestly, no disrespect to anyone, but Justice in the real world hardly emulates Justice in a movie or on TV. I think a lot of people get their Legal Opinions from watching TV and movies and not from an actual Courtroom. It was a real eyeopener to me my first time.

This is very true. If you ever find yourself in a situation like that, keep your mouth shut and hire the best mouth piece you can afford. The BG better be in your house and you need to be in fear of your life when you pull that trigger.

don't shoot it's me · April 5, 2008, 09:44 AM

I use the same load as our dept. (LASD) 4 buck. I have a 7 round tube and load it down....2 slugs first, then 3 of the buck....

Bill DeShivs · April 5, 2008, 12:35 PM

I have worked around the courts and LE for 36 years.

W. C. Quantrill · April 5, 2008, 01:59 PM

Bill,

Nice website and knives you have.

I worked LE for a number of years and in the court system for about 10. I am quite a ways west of you, but here, attitudes are completely different than on the coasts. Fortunately, I was able to progress from that period of my life.

We carried #4 buck in our cruisers. Without elaboration, we found we got better results with it. Fortunately, we live in states that allow rifles for hunting, and it is not a factor there.

Also, fortunately, we have judges who can be somewhat controlled by the communities, or if not, they do not last another term. The power of the ballot box still prevails in this part of America. Somewhat west of here, ballot results are sometimes shakey, as are the elected officials.

The basic problem that we as Americans are facing at this time is that we are being ruled by emotion rather than law and order. Perhaps if we had more order, we would not need so many laws.

#4 Buckshot is still a viable option.

Bill

mikenbarb · April 5, 2008, 07:13 PM

Ruger, I have tried to go to court hearings in regards to weapon violations to see how they pan out for people and they have closed court for all firearm violations.(not suprised) "A little story how New Jersey gun laws work",,, I have a friend that is a previous sport shop owner that had a great little business in Sussex county N.J. He is a great honest guy and comes from a great family of local people. He was broken into one night and had a few guns stolen out of a locked and secure area in his sportshop. Later that week we heard alot of police sirens and the next day we found out there had been a shooting of a couple pizza delivery men. The kids that stole his guns called in a fake pizza delivery to an abandoned house and when the pizza guys showed up they opened fire on them with the stolen guns killing them. After many court battles and hundreds of thousands of dollars he was sued by the family of the slain pizza delivery guys. He lost his business, his house and their life savings due to a couple kids that broke into HIS business and stole a couple guns to have a "thrill kill". In the actual statement one of the murderers stated that you should have seen the look on their faces when we started shooting. They were both given life and they are appealing the courts decision. This is a TRUE story of a legitimate sport shop owner that was broken into by a couple of dirtbags that should have gotten the death sentence. Reality sucks and the gun laws are getting tougher every day for the good gun owners and not severe enough for the criminals.

kristop64089 · April 5, 2008, 07:31 PM

I was curious about #4 as well. I have small children (4,2, and a prego wife) and I always worry about strays. I have retired my HD handguns to the safe. Right now I have it stoked with birdshot.
The way I figure, if someone is in my house they are going to get 7 rounds of birdshot within 20'. If they live thru that, I have 12 more on the stock. I know this is not recommended, so I was looking at moving to larger shot, but not as big as 00,000

drifts1 · April 5, 2008, 08:51 PM

+1 on the 4 buck. I also noticed the pattern size with the #4 buck was the same as 00 with my Mossy.

April 2, 2008, 01:52 AM	#2
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Twenty-seven... quarter-inch diameter pellets, delivered at once, will definitely get someones attention, for a bit.

April 3, 2008, 07:43 AM	#8
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	Ruger4570, Your thoughts are the same as mine and I agree 100%. I live in a state where the gun laws are out of control and one could have a very hard time with a judge with a rambo style gun. A sporting model would give you a lot better hand of cards to play with arguing your defense. __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

April 4, 2008, 10:12 AM	#11
john1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Location: The relatively sane part of IL Posts: 383	If they are going to "hang your azz out" for using a "Rambo" (belt-fed?) gun, there's a pretty good chance they will do the same thing if you use Grandaddy's 30" double barrel. Some areas of this Country don't want people defending themselves at all. __________________ Almost any problem can be solved by a liberal dose of .45 230 gr JHPs.

April 4, 2008, 12:07 PM	#12
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	john1911, I live in the great state of New Jersey where you wouldnt want to be in front of a Judge with a tricked out HD weapon, No matter what style. They would take into consideration that it was a true HD situation if you had Grandpas old 12 double because it doesnt have alot of optional equipment installed by the owner.(not saying how much it looks better to the jury) I have seen it time and time again in the court system in this state. Our state gun laws are tough in this state because all the crackheads like to shoot each other.( I dont mind that at all ) But because of their actions it makes people like myself and many others suffer every time we want to buy a new long or handgun. We have a wonderful 6 month wait to buy a handgun. And you have to do that for every one you buy. If you shot an intruder in this state you better hope he had a weapon and he was going to try to kill you. If not, your the one going in pretty silver bracelets. Im sure you would have a better defense if you had a sporting firearm vs. a tricked out model due to the reasons Ruger stated. Im not saying its a no no to have one but I wouldnt want to have the prosecuter hold it up to show the jury members that watch ALOT of movies. (Rambo style = Any weapon altered to enhance tactical use or appearance.) __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

April 4, 2008, 12:28 PM	#13
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	It must be awful to live in the liberal north. I pity you guys! Everything you are saying is completely foreign. A little further to the south, we actually have laws that make sense. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 1, 2008, 10:36 PM	#1
Boris Bush Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2007 Posts: 921	#4 Buck Well I thought to myself as I stood infront of the buckshot at the store that I always get OO buck or OOO buck. I thought, and put it back and got some #4 buck instead. I got a box of the Estate Cartridge 25 round box. I went to the range the next day and my shotgun throws very even pattterns with any buckshot. When I shot the #4 the pattern size was the same but of course more full and impressed me alot. I dont use buckshot for hunting (big game atleast), but I do for HD. I think I will swap out the Flite control wad Federal (OObuck) and put some of the #4 as my primary load..........

April 2, 2008, 02:15 AM	#3
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	#4 is good i prefer #1 myself more shot than 00 and 000 and larger than #4

April 2, 2008, 08:12 AM	#4
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	#4 buck I have used #4 buck for the last 10 years for our deer drives.(slug gun for on stand) It puts them down with authority and I shoot Winchester 3 1/2" and it packs a 54 pellet payload. __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

April 2, 2008, 09:44 PM	#5
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	If you are going to use buck for HD I would go with #4. For deer I would use #1 although I have used #4 with success.

April 2, 2008, 10:34 PM	#6
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	#4 Buck is about .24 caliber and weigh about 40 grains per pellet, so at around 1200 FPS it is like shooting 27 .22 rimfires at the same instant into a target. I used to load them at times and shot a Snowshoe rabbit one time at about 25 yards or so. He rattled when i picked him up and there were fur balls on the other side of him where the shot took fur right through him (or her) I really doubt I would have a real problem with this load for HD. Considering people have been killed with a single 22 rimfire. I think 27 would surely do the job. I also seriously doubt any bad guy is gonna want to hang around for the 2nd shot much less give me a hard time. I am NOT a Tacky Cool kinda guy, but I think #4 Buck is fine. I don't use a extended magazine in the fear of a running gun battle. I don't intend to "rack the slide" in the hopes it will scare off the bad guy or make him fill his pants. I don't have a sidesaddle containing 75 extra rounds. I simply have a Berreta 390, old model with the pretty wood. If my home was entered, I would most likely load the gun, actually, I have no kids so it is always loaded with the bolt back. I would be on the floor, being that it is something where I am least expected to be. He has a matter of a second or 2 to hit the floor, one way or the other,, his choice to get down on his own, or dead, also his choice. I sure don't expect to need more than one, at most 2 shots to neutralize the threat. Like I said, I am not "cool" much less "tackycool" looking and one that is hopeing someone breaks in so I can show off my masculinity and testerone levels. Also, do you want to face a judge in a self defense (Manslaughter) trial with a gun that looks like John Rambo would own to take out a town? Sorry, I rather go in with my plain old hunting gun complete with the wood plug. Being prepared is one thing, being Tactical and not a Cop is something else. I don't want to spend time in a prision because I read it was OK on some gun forum to look like and act like a Rambo. That is the movies, not real life.

April 3, 2008, 06:41 AM	#7
.45 COLT Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 308	#1 Buck is around 40 grains, #4 is about 20. Still a pretty nasty load. DC

April 3, 2008, 09:21 PM	#9
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	.45 Colt, I apologize, you are right on the weight. I just seemed to "remember" weighing one at 40 grains. Obviously my memory from 40 years ago is off. mikenbarb: I have several buddies that are either Prosecuting Attorny's or Defense Attorneys. We often get together after shooting and go to the local pub and have a brew or two and see how many chicken wings we can make disappear. The discussion of HD has come up many times over the course of the past couple of years. Both types of Attorny's agree, you set up some kind of Rambo gun, in a court, the prosecuters will hang your azz. Remember in a HD situation with the death of a "perp" there will still be a charge of Manslaughter against you. It might be cleared and no harm to you and you go home. But as pointed out to me, if you have some Tacky Cool gun you are going to have some real problems defending yourself as the Prosecuter will most likely lay the grounds, you were prepared, ready to ambush then and HOPED and PRAYED someone would give you the opportunity to shoot them with the excuse of HD. People watch movies and TV and somehow think that is the way the Law actually works. Nothing could be further from the truth, they are SHOWS, entertainment, made up and nothing more and CERTAINLY not sound legal advice. I always get a laugh whenever I read about all the tricked out HD shotguns with extended tubes, sidesaddles, lasers and so on. Well you certainly are well prepared for a SHTF situation, you just better pray it doesn't happen to you. Heck, you might even get off with some luck, then look at your legal bill as opposed to the guy with a sporting 28 inch barreled shotgun or a legal pistol defending himself. It is cool to try to be a Rambo, but you will find in the end, you have a problem. If you doubt me, call your Lawyer and spend a little time with him, I suspect he will advise against a Tacky Cool gun too.

April 3, 2008, 10:00 PM	#10
.45 COLT Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 308	Ruger 4570 - My uncle was head DA there in Monroe County for many years. That was back when the area was a little more conservative I hear it is now. I lived in your area for a while (Macedon) and he got me out of a couple of scrapes.I was in Wayne County, but he had friends all over the state. DC

April 4, 2008, 02:51 PM	#14
mountainclmbr Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: On a mountain in the Colorado Rockies Posts: 966	I have some Remington 3-inch #4 Buck. It has 41 pellets. I have not patterned it yet. __________________ "The unfettered free market has been the most radically destructive force in American life in the last generation." - Hillary Clinton

April 4, 2008, 03:39 PM	#15
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	Gun laws get even better going West and South as long as you don't wander into California. NY is about as liberal as anyone can stand and has many restrictive laws, but, there is no law against defending yourself from someone with a weapon. I just have to agree with the consept that in a Court in front of Jurors with a rabid Prosecuter you may have some serious problems with a "tricked out" shotgun. Personally, I don't care if the Tacky Cool guys get their ego off with them all accessorized. I just know, in a HD situation, me with my sporting gun and 3 round magazine against a another with his Rambo special,, who do you REALLY think stands a better chance of acquittal in front of a Jury?

April 4, 2008, 05:40 PM	#16
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I would THINK, in the normal sense, that if the shoot was a good one, in your own home-that it really wouldn't matter. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 4, 2008, 08:10 PM	#18
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	Some of you folks should take some time and actually go into a Court room with a case like this, most are open to the public. Honestly, no disrespect to anyone, but Justice in the real world hardly emulates Justice in a movie or on TV. I think a lot of people get their Legal Opinions from watching TV and movies and not from an actual Courtroom. It was a real eyeopener to me my first time.

April 5, 2008, 09:44 AM	#20
don't shoot it's me Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2001 Location: NY first/LA second Posts: 1,537	I use the same load as our dept. (LASD) 4 buck. I have a 7 round tube and load it down....2 slugs first, then 3 of the buck....

April 5, 2008, 12:35 PM	#21
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I have worked around the courts and LE for 36 years. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 5, 2008, 01:59 PM	#22
W. C. Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Location: No Man's Land Posts: 354	Bill, Nice website and knives you have. I worked LE for a number of years and in the court system for about 10. I am quite a ways west of you, but here, attitudes are completely different than on the coasts. Fortunately, I was able to progress from that period of my life. We carried #4 buck in our cruisers. Without elaboration, we found we got better results with it. Fortunately, we live in states that allow rifles for hunting, and it is not a factor there. Also, fortunately, we have judges who can be somewhat controlled by the communities, or if not, they do not last another term. The power of the ballot box still prevails in this part of America. Somewhat west of here, ballot results are sometimes shakey, as are the elected officials. The basic problem that we as Americans are facing at this time is that we are being ruled by emotion rather than law and order. Perhaps if we had more order, we would not need so many laws. #4 Buckshot is still a viable option. Bill __________________ NRA Life Whittington Center Life

April 5, 2008, 07:13 PM	#23
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	True story Ruger, I have tried to go to court hearings in regards to weapon violations to see how they pan out for people and they have closed court for all firearm violations.(not suprised) "A little story how New Jersey gun laws work",,, I have a friend that is a previous sport shop owner that had a great little business in Sussex county N.J. He is a great honest guy and comes from a great family of local people. He was broken into one night and had a few guns stolen out of a locked and secure area in his sportshop. Later that week we heard alot of police sirens and the next day we found out there had been a shooting of a couple pizza delivery men. The kids that stole his guns called in a fake pizza delivery to an abandoned house and when the pizza guys showed up they opened fire on them with the stolen guns killing them. After many court battles and hundreds of thousands of dollars he was sued by the family of the slain pizza delivery guys. He lost his business, his house and their life savings due to a couple kids that broke into HIS business and stole a couple guns to have a "thrill kill". In the actual statement one of the murderers stated that you should have seen the look on their faces when we started shooting. They were both given life and they are appealing the courts decision. This is a TRUE story of a legitimate sport shop owner that was broken into by a couple of dirtbags that should have gotten the death sentence. Reality sucks and the gun laws are getting tougher every day for the good gun owners and not severe enough for the criminals. __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

April 5, 2008, 08:51 PM	#25
drifts1 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Posts: 136	+1 on the 4 buck. I also noticed the pattern size with the #4 buck was the same as 00 with my Mossy.