October 22, 2009, 12:55 PM | #51 | |
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October 22, 2009, 12:57 PM | #52 | |||
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I understand that some might not like this group for sociological reasons, but not liking or trusting the sort of people you think they are is hardly an indictment of an idea.
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For those reasons, I believe that your analysis inadequately distinguished between the COTUS, government and country.
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October 22, 2009, 01:02 PM | #53 | |
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Endorsements are nice and all, but don't mean too much to me. I have seen too many examples of very good people, very reputable people who endorsed things that turned out to be garbage, sometimes for various financial incentives, sometimes out of real or perceived commonalities, sometimes out of professional courtesies, sometimes out of naivete, and sometimes because they were out and out duped. Sometimes those making such endorsements simply have a different agenda from mine, even if they are very good people. So just because people of note have endorsed the group is fine, but I can't see changing my mind about the organization on that sort of basis. To do so would mean that I would be doing nothing more than blindly following the lead of the endorsers...which sort of gets back to the original problem of cops and military folks who blindly follow illegal orders given to them.
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October 22, 2009, 01:14 PM | #54 | ||||||
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Is that what you and Oath Keepers are proposing? Surely not. Without a doubt the government does oppressive and bad things from time to time. Sort of a human thing I guess as the leaders of government are human. Me, I like the idea of a nation of laws not men. Nagin was sued by the NRA and the NRA settled the case. I guess they felt they achieved restitution enough but you don't think so. Of course legally the RKBA does not now apply to the states and hasn't in 200 years but our courts will fix that in June next year right? Yeah, Nagin is an idiot and might get away with the gun grab unless he loses the next election. Yeah the democratic system of law sucks, unless of course you compare it to any other system. Quote:
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Did you notice Mr. Stewart has a place to donate money to his cause? Follow the money.
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October 22, 2009, 01:17 PM | #55 | |
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I was going to say that I have my beliefs and agendas but refuse to align myself with groups of similar as they always seem to have a few other agendas or beliefs either in the way of officially or just that of some members that will be 180 out from my own. I also prefer to keep my name off their rosters for many reasons. I do belong to the NRA as they are the only frontline lobby group fighting on behalf of my 2A rights directly. Brent |
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October 22, 2009, 01:31 PM | #56 | |
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An argument from authority is that X must be true because Mr. Y says so. The argument here isn't that Oath Keepers are "true", but that they aren't a group of icky camo wearing embarrassments. That is directly responsive to the charge that the group is a bunch of icky camo wearing embarrassments.
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October 22, 2009, 01:39 PM | #57 | ||||
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France gave us democracy in 1787 and it was a bloody horror, the mother of modern totalitarianism. Let's not permit liberties to be abused so long as it is done by majority vote. Quote:
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http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; October 22, 2009 at 02:34 PM. Reason: clarity |
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October 22, 2009, 05:00 PM | #58 |
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Vanya, thank you for a most excellent post.
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October 22, 2009, 05:45 PM | #59 | ||||||||||
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Curiouser and Curiouser... The military should not have a problem with most of these but the police sure will.
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October 22, 2009, 06:18 PM | #60 |
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Katrina/New Orleans
We could have used more people who followed the 10 lines of the Oath Keepers during Katrina as law abidding citizens were treated like criminals and had their firearms confiscated while looters ran wild.
It sounds like a group that are simply reaffirming an original oath to remind and in some case educated a population that has little knowledge of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the fact that we live in a Constitutional Republic and not a Democracy. Additionally, I don't read anything that sounds like they are gathering to organized some type of armed resistance.
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October 22, 2009, 08:34 PM | #61 |
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TG I will answer you with facts. Let me ask you what good has Heller done? It is still near impossible to get a firearm registered in DC. Since you mentioned full auto weapons, I'll use it as an example of a loss of freedom. I want a full auto weapon. I know all I have to do is fill out the paperwork, pay my tax, and wait. I go out looking and all the FA weapons are much too expensive. What ought to cost $1500 costs $4000-5000 or more. Why is that? Because the gov't decided FA weapons could no longer be manufactured for sale to the general public. While, technically, my right has not been denied, I cannot exercise it because of restrictions the gov't has placed upon it that place it out of my reach. Am I more free, certainly not.
The Declaration of Independence gives creedence to the existence of Oath Keepers. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Perhaps they see the tremendous deficit as a yoke binding us to serfdom under the government. I know I do. Perhaps they see the possibility of despotism rearing its ugly head and wish to stand against. Your statement of nothing happening in the past 200 years that approaches the scenarios outlined by the 10 points is not quite correct. What about the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2? It is ironic that the 442nd was the highest decorated unit during the conflict. What of the illegal seizure of weapons during Katrina, as has been previously mentioned. Then there is that little incident called the Civil War( War of Northern Aggression). I say the rights we enjoy are just words on a piece of paper and as valueless as a dollar without something to back it up. It is the RKBA that gives teeth to the BOR, and without it all the other rights are nothing but well meaning intentions. One last thing. Since when has the militia conjured up such negative images? It existed into the 20th century without a problem. What is wrong with a group of citizens banding together to protect themselves during a time of crisis? It must be all the hamlets and villages attacked by militia groups. Maybe its all the bombings they've committed. Oh. that's right, there haven't been any attacks by militia units. Maybe its just the kool-aid. |
October 23, 2009, 12:04 AM | #62 | ||||||||||||
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October 23, 2009, 12:20 AM | #63 |
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I meet many police officers, military officers, etc, who have taken an oath and I very seriously doubt they really thought about it or value it. Many are just in it for a paycheck or college tuition. I don't think it is odd that this group wants to differentiate themselves from a wider less conscientious group of their peers. I think anyone who says that every, or even most, US military or police hold their oaths of office near and dear to their heart is kidding themselves. How many out of those groups could repeat their oaths back today? If they can't, they obviously do not take them seriously.
Some of the statements on their site are at the least a little aggressive and a little doom and gloom. I think anyone who says we are currently at a point where rebellion is necessary is crazy. Are we headed that way? It is pretty much the nature of all government to head that direction. The next Lee Harvey Oswald or Timothy Mcveigh will almost certainly be an NRA life member. Are any of you canceling your memberships? What would the site of a group with the same fundamental message as the oath takers but toned down to what you are comfortable with read like? Do you all generally think that joining a group which reaffirms you take your oath of office seriously is bad in general? Is there anything on that list that you would want an officer of the government to do? I might have trouble with swearing not to enter a state in rebellion under arms. I don't know, I would have to think on that. It would certainly be a ------ day, but I think there would be a good number of circumstances in which i would do it. All joking about the availability of fresh fruit aside, we used concentration camps in WWII. Did any of you watch he Siege and say to yourselves "This is absolutely appalling. This could never happen."? If terrorists supposedly had a nuke in NY City I hate to think of what the government would resort to in trying to stop its detonation. Maybe that situation justifies throwing the constitution out the window. Despite what other parts of the website say the scope of membership qualification seems to be 1. Having taken an oath of service and 2. willingness to follow those ten rules. I would have trouble judging anyone who met those qualifications harshly. Think of a northerner who sat out the civil war b/c he thought it was unconstitutional. Does that sound crazy? Craxy dangerous man? Sometimes I like having a rabid senseless bulldog, such as GOA, in the fight. The ACLU has made the strategy work for decades. |
October 23, 2009, 12:34 AM | #64 |
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A couple more facts that I will try to keep impersonal:
Mexican soldiers, under the control of international drug cartels and supplied by our own military resources(rifles, humvees, etc), regularly cross several miles into the US for operations while in uniform. Research on dominant authority figures almost exclusively points to people being unable to defy an authority figure UNLESS they have previously considered the scenario and made a decision. THAT is what most people who have studied Nazi Germany and other genocides say MUST happen to prevent such acts. The people on the ground must go into the situation having decided their reaction before the situation presents itself. Even then many fail. Very few are able to make the "right" choice in the heat of the moment against authority. Many will follow if someone else goes against authority. I have not seen anywhere that they ask for money in order to be a member. If someone has more info on this I would also be interested, |
October 23, 2009, 09:12 AM | #65 |
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More thought required...
All of this seems to have begun with the election of an administration, with a clear majority of votes, that's led by someone who is ethnically and politically much different than any leader in our past.
Not only are we frightened by his ethnicity (he doesn't look like us) and what we assume his politics are, the fact that he'd win an election with a clear majority from a war hero Conservative (who does look like us) adds to the fear. What's become of "our" United States (as defined by the power distribution, economic forces, political hierarchy, moral values, racial juxtapositions, and place in the world of the 1950's)? Our country seems to be eroding and melting away from around us and under us; what was "the way of things" has moved away from us- or so it seems in our insecure and frightened conjectures of what's to happen to us when the majority of voters don't match our politics or prefer our ethnicity. Well, it's a different country in so many ways than it was during Ike's tenure as president. In the manner it has always done in the past, it has changed with the times and with the will of the majority of the people who vote. Anyone who resists change, like the Torys of Revolutionary times, will be left behind as the dynamic, adapting, growing, flexible powerhouse this nation is makes its way amid a changing world, holding as constant as is possible the basic tenets of our identity as seeded in 1776 and 1789. A lot of of the assumptions that have been made about what's to happen to our Constitutional rights (including gun rights) are not supported by a comprehensive, objective, close reading of the administration's stance on the issues as stated before and after the election. It's more emotion than thought, fear than knowledge that drives the perspective of too many of us. Now is a crucial time to get off our lazy intellectual butts, put aside our emotions and fears, and THINK. We must learn what there is to know from sources with no agenda or axe to grind and then decide independently what it is we stand with. Let no one tell us what to believe when we have the mental equipment and the guaranteed freedoms to find out for ourselves. All that's required of us is that we confirm the objectivity of anyone who tries to convince us of anything, and to have the energy, integrity and responsibility to learn what we can BEFORE we decide what we support or believe. These are the basic responsibilities of citizenship in the US which were expected of us by the Founders who gave us the Bill of Rights. Individual freedom is more than a right, it's a responsibility, a duty of us all, which includes first of all putting in the intellectual efforts being free requires.
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October 23, 2009, 11:16 AM | #66 | |||||
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October 23, 2009, 11:28 AM | #67 | ||||
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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October 23, 2009, 12:17 PM | #68 | |
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October 23, 2009, 12:20 PM | #69 | |
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Uncle Billy, that's a fine post up there.
I particularly liked this bit: Quote:
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October 23, 2009, 12:36 PM | #70 | |
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So they won't participate in warrantless searches and all that, but what are they going to do to stop it when it does happen? So they want folks to keep the oath they have already taken (police, fire, military, etc.) but they want $30 for it, but they will allow folks who don't fit in the above category to be supporter members for $30 as well. So that am I missing? They want $30 for folks to feel good about themselves? This sort of reminds me of televangelists (many of whom have some lofty endorsements as well).
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October 23, 2009, 01:14 PM | #71 | |||
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October 23, 2009, 01:14 PM | #72 | |
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+1 By golly I think that you have nailed it: It's about lining someone's pockets. |
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October 23, 2009, 01:18 PM | #73 |
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I think we are done. We moved from the L and CR issues that this organization might support or problem they might cause to evaluating TV preachers and talk show blather.
Closed.
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