Progressive Press for Test Loads?

[rdtompki]

I'm considering starting my handgun ammo reloading "career" with a progressive press. I don't have any qualms related to learning curve; my entire (engineering) career has produced a measure twice, cut once mentality. I'm very time limited and between my wife and I we would be shooting perhaps 1600 rounds a month or so. I'd appreciate some input on the practicality of having only a progressive press when doing small runs of test loads.

The other option would be to buy an inexpensive single stage press as well with an eye toward being able to use the same dies in both presses.

[jmorris]

Before I had a range in my backyard, I worked up pistol loads with this setup. Shaves days of time, in less than two hours I can work up loads to meet power factor using 4 powders with 4 different bullets and load enough for further testing.

[StripesDude]

I went from turret to progressive within five months of starting to reload. I should have just gone progressive to begin with. I can quadruple my output with my progressive press.

I'm mechanically inclined also. I bought the Lee Loadmaster (after upgrading from the Lee Classic Turret). What some folks can't get to work, I've never had an issue with. It's not rocket science....no need to spend triple on a big blue machine.

I'd go progressive if I were you.

[madmo44mag]

Normally I suggest a new hand loader to start on a single stage but people that have attention to detail seldom have an issue starting with a progressive press.
A progressive press will crank out ammo once you get your routine down.
The biggest advice I can give is read, read, read and get a good grasp on what you are doing. I also suggest at least 2 reloading manuals from different sources. (Hornaday, Speer, Lee), ect….)
Lastly use this form for info.
There is a ton of great info here and members willing to help.
As for the brad of press well everyone has their favorite.
I like Hornaday but have owned Lee and RCBS.
Dillon makes a great press but seems to be more proprietary.

[Ole 5 hole group]

1600 rounds a month is not really high volume but would be a real PITA using a single stage.

I would recommend you look at either the Hornady LnL or the Dillon 650 - those two machines will easily do what you want and if your needs progress, then all you need to do is add the case feeder to keep up and if you really go high volume then add the bullet feeder and crank out 700 to 900 an hour.

You'll need extra primer tubes, as priming is what will slow you down on the per hour count - if your spouse will keep the tubes loaded, then you wouldn't need extra tubes but chances are real good that you'll purchase extra tubes.

Without the case or bullet feeder you can easily do 250 to 350 an hour and the powder drop from the Hornady will be spot-on. I don't have the Dillon, but I would imagine their powder drop would be on the money as well.

[Waldog]

If you only want to reload handgun ammo, you can't beat the Dillon Square Deal press. It's easy to use, is ROUGHLY adjusted from the factory for the caliber you want to load. The downside is that it uses proprietary Dillon Dies. No other dies will work. The Upside is that dies are available on ebay. Not always at bargain prices however.

[DaleA]

Go ahead and get the progressive.

I went the ‘traditional’ single stage then progressive route but I think anybody willing to read the directions and start out slowly will be just fine with a progressive.

A GREAT start would be if you could work with somebody that is currently reloading. Directions are great, videos can be helpful but hands on experience from somebody that is doing it is, IMhO, best.

New to reloading, no matter what format, it’s nice to have the shop vac handy.

One other thing…I never used a turret press…watching these videos I often wish I would have tried one:
http://leeprecision.com/turret-press-help-videos.html

[dickttx]

I have the Hornady LnL AP and just ran it one case at a time for awhile to learn the process. I pretty well had my loads worked up, but if I were working up a new one I would do it one case at a time also.

[tobnpr]

^^ This.

One of the advantages of the Hornady is the spring-loaded case retainer which allows you to just pop cases in and out at any station.

It was the very first press I bought (never had a single stage), and I just ran it as a single stage when learning- and still do when I'm doing only a few rounds per charge when working up a new load.

It's easy to take out a case, weigh the charge (and dump it back into the powder measure if needed), adjust the meter, etc. as needed.

[Unclenick]

Same with the Dillons, except a brass pin with a wide head rather than a spring retains the cases at each station, and can be pulled to allow you remove partially finished rounds. So you can pop cases out wherever you want in the process. This is helpful when setting dies up.

Note that among the Dillon presses, only the Square Deal uses proprietary dies. The others all use standard dies.

The Square Deal is great if you shoot just one caliber a lot. I have one that runs only .45 Auto. The manually indexed 550 and the more automatic 650 let you change calibers faster. All have tool heads so you can leave dies and a powder measure set up to make change-out quick. RCBS also uses a quick-change tool plate, IIRC.

You should, with any of the progressive presses, be able to get your month's ammo supply assembled in a couple of sittings. Just one sitting when you get your routine down. You'll probably find you want to leave one caliber set up and do six months worth over a couple of weeks of evenings, then change out and do the same for the other chambering. Unless you are still deciding on a load, that not only works, but encourages you to buy components in quantities that save money.

From a learning standpoint, if you invest in one of the inexpensive Lee Challenger single-stage presses first, you can learn die setup and what to watch out for while loading using that press for a couple of weeks. Then when you get a progressive set up, that press becomes a special operations press. You may use it with a universal decapping die to decap cases before cleaning and sizing when you think there's too much primer residue built up to allow solid primer seating. You can use it with a Hornady Cam-Lock Bullet Puller to pull bullets on rounds you made mistakes with or surplus ammo you want to recover components from rather than fire as-is. There always seem to be uses for a single-stage press, even when you reload progressively.

[PhantomI]

Just one thought before you start. I started on a progressive (Dillon SDB). As a new reloader you need to master two different task from the get go. Manufacturing safe ammo and operating a new piece of equipment you most likely have never seen before. My advice, what ever press you buy, learn the press inside out before you ever start loading. This precludes the: did I do something wrong or did the press just hick up dilemma. Attending a reloading class and reading manuals will fill in the how to do it safely.

Test load setup require about the same time as full production. Set up time is determined by what is changing on the press. ie powder setting, seating die, or crimp die. I don,t think this is a deal breaker personally.


Best wishes,

Tom

[Machineguntony]

If money isn't an issue, or if you want to spoil yourself, just get the Dillon 1050. I don't understand the concept of telling a new reloader to start with a single stage. Single stages are a pain in the behind.

I have a Dillon 650, and I hate it. Small volume cases, like 9mm, will spill powder as the progressive plate indexes. If you look this issue up on youtube, you will find all sorts of cures, from cutting the plate spring to using a plastic ball bearing. I have tried everything, and none really work. I use my 650 for .45 acp and 40SW. The spill problem isn't as bad in those case sizes.

I have three 1050s, each dedicated to 9mm, .308, and .223, respectively. I have a bullet feeder on each one. They're so awesome that sometimes I enjoy reloading as much as I enjoy shooting.

1600 rounds a month is a lot, and eventually, you'll feel like you're doing work. As time goes on, you will find that the reloading time is more enjoyable if you have to do less work to produce a round. Eventually, get an auto primer. It'll make your life easy. I shoot about 2000-10,000 rounds a month, depending on my mood, and my near automated set up makes reloading easy and enjoyable.

One thing I am afraid to get is a Possness-Warren motor. IMO, they're just too dangerous. When I first spoke to the Dillon rep, he said to be careful, as the motor can cut your fingers off. After using a 1050 for about 2 years, I can see how it would cut off fingers.

Btw, Dillon says that the 1050 is 'commercial quality'. It isn't. I've seen a real commercial reloader in action, and it is nothing like what we have.

[jmorris]

If money isn't an issue, or if you want to spoil yourself, just get the Dillon 1050.

One thing I am afraid to get is a Possness-Warren motor. IMO, they're just too dangerous. When I first spoke to the Dillon rep, he said to be careful, as the motor can cut your fingers off.

Yeah the 1050 properly set up would have him working less than an hour for the months worth of ammo (if it's all one caliber). Any press could cut your fingers off, even a single stage. The key to not cutting them off is to keep your fingers out of the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

Btw, Dillon says that the 1050 is 'commercial quality'. It isn't. I've seen a real commercial reloader in action, and it is nothing like what we have.

It's not a Camdex, ammo load or Scharch but there are a lot of business that use them because you can buy more than a dozen of them for the price of a single Camdex and if the single Camdex has a problem your production falls to zero. Caliber conversions for them also cost more than $7000 each.

[totaldla]

Not a big deal. Usually I can dial in the Dillon powder dispenser pretty fast and then changing the charge by a couple tenths is accomplished with 5 or 6 dump & weigh cycles. For handgun, I usually make 10 or so at each charge weight increment, less if I can get setup so that I'm shooting groups over the Chrony (weather is the variable where I live).

I think that SDB on the tailgate is the slickest setup I've seen for at the range tuning & tweaking.

[Machineguntony]

The Camdex is quite an awesome reloader. I have been thinking of getting one, just to get one. I hear the wait for delivery is a long wait, up to a year.

The problem with using the 1050 in a commercial setting is that you need one operator/employee per 1050 to use it, as someone needs to pull the handle to operate it, unless you get a possness-warren motor. With multiple Camdex machines, you can have one employee manning several machines.

With the 1050, even if you pay an employee minimum wage, that still comes out to an extra $16,000 in expenses per employee per year. Over time, once an enterprise has enough money, it is much more economically viable to have multiple Camdexes, even at its cost multiples over a 1050.

Even with a motor, I don't see the 1050 being efficient enough to use without an operator: sometimes the bullet drop will drop two bullets, requiring the operator to reach in and remove the extra bullet that dropped on the shell plate (this is how you would cut off a finger, by reaching in while the motor was operating the index plate); sometimes a jam happens because a case feeds incorrectly; etc, among other jamming issues. I watched a Camdex (actually, I do not know if it was a Camdex, I just assumed it was a Camdex, as it looked nothing like a circular indexing type machine, but reloaded in linear fashion), and it had none of the problems of a circular indexing reloader. It was quite impressive and made me green with envy.

But then again, I have no personal experience with a Camdex. Maybe it is "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. A machine that complex can not be easy to use, and probably requires a lot of expertise to maintain.

I little off topic, I know, but gosh, I love this hobby.

[jmorris]

I know a fellow that has more than a half a dozen Camdex machines and more than a dozen 1050's. They all need processed brass to run 100%.

Processing brass eliminates many of the problems one might encounter loading, on any machine.

It does take more time, unless the process is automated as well.

A 1050 can be setup to process brass as fast as other machines.

Like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ieGYpdr9I


The Camdex machines also check for cracked cases and "ringers" (where the outer portion of the primer stays in the pocket and the bottom is punched out.

A 1050 can be made to tell if the pocket diameter is smaller than it should be too.

Like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7vSEAqkZw

Once they are fed brass that is processed, generally the only time they stop is when they need more primers (and you add cases and bullets to the feeder.

This machine runs, more often than not, when I am not in the room.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

[Machineguntony]

Whoa!

That would be a perfect set up with a motor.

Am I correct in understanding that the 1050, shown in the first video, is just processing cases, meaning that only the first station is used to decap and resize the brass? Am I also correct in understanding that the other stations are not used?

Why would processing cases eliminate most problems? I can see the simplicity behind it, but I don't understand why brass processing would eliminate most problems, as you say.

[Misssissippi Dave]

I prefer the Dillon 550b. It is easier to use it like a single stage to develop new loads than the other Dillon presses for me. Advancing the case is done manually so you don't have to keep returning the case to the prior stage once you make an adjustment. Getting into a steady pattern to produce ammo doesn't take very long to learn either. I like to check the stages before advancing them. It might not be as fast in turning out ammo once it is setup right as a 650 with case feeder or the 1050. It is fast enough to easily produce 300 round per hour once things are setup properly. Most people I have spoken to with a 550 claim to turn out closer to 400 rounds per hour on average. The 550b has one big problem out of the box. That is the pivot on the door for the used primers. It comes with a cotter pin for the pivot. That should not be used and a round steel pin should be used to replace the cotter pin. Then the door will move properly and you don't wind up with used primers all over the place. Keeping the area for the primer shuttle clean will keep the primer feed working well too. Any standard dies will work with this press but I still prefer the Dillon dies. Once things are working well I don't see any need to spend much over an hour reloading per week or possibly 5 hours once a month cranking out the ammo you will be shooting that month. Even a couple half hour sessions a week will get the job done.

Lately, the hardest problem has been getting enough powder to keep feeding the press.

[Jim Watson]

What caliber, rd?

I would be comfortable loading 1600 9mm a month on a SDB. But it lacks the leverage to seat primers easily in .45 ACP.
A 550 is somewhat better, I don't know about a 650.
I bought a 1050 for .45 instead of a new gun one year and that was a great idea. The primer pocket crimp is swaged out and the primer seated on the downstroke to a positive stop. The 550 is fine for 9mm, .38, and even .44-40 from my CAS days.

Since a Dillon's powder measure is case mouth activated, you can run one round at a time for training, so as to see what each station is doing; and for loading a few trial rounds for testing. After loading single rounds for a while, you will have to adjust the powder measure to go progressive because of the lesser vibration, but that is not difficult.

If you envision doing a lot of test loading, I recommend a micrometer seating die from Redding or Hornady. The Dillon die does a good job of seating but does not have an adjustable seating plug, you have to screw the whole die in and out on a 14 tpi thread, which is a real drag.
And the Uniquetek micrometer powder measure adjustment would be useful if you do a lot of fiddling with powder choice or charge.

[jmorris]

Why would processing cases eliminate most problems? I can see the simplicity behind it, but I don't understand why brass processing would eliminate most problems, as you say.

Well, when you load ammo on a progressive, what are the problems that you have that cause you to stop?

Almost all of them are due to to something that can be helped before there is a primer seated or powder dropped.

By other machines at least.

[BigJimP]

Loading a small volume of test ammo on a progressive is pretty easy...so no big deal there. You do not need a single stage press for test ammo.

I like the Dillon 650 ...it auto indexes ( the 550 does not)...the 650 has a 4 station tool head allowing for a "powder check die" ( the 550 does not).../ but the Hornaday LNL is about the same quality as the Dillon 650.

Dillon 1050 comes with only a 1 yr warranty / where the other Dillon machines come with a lifetime no bs warranty.../ the 650 press with a case feeder easily does 800 - 1,000 rds an hour.

I've had a 650 for about 10 yrs...and for what its worth I'd buy it again ( I reload 7 handgun calibers on it - and 3 rifle calibers )...

[spaniel]

I had a single stage from beginning on precision rifle, so I still use it to work up loads. But if I have the dies already set in my Hornady LnL....easy to weigh the powder on the Chargemaster and dump from that, but run everything else on the progressive.

Just go progressive. But work up charges on a scale, you will need one anyways to verify that the progressive is throwing accurately.

And....LOL...1600 rds fired/mo and you are "time-constrained"....that would be my dream, and I have 2 home ranges.

[sawdustdad]

I never loaded pistol ammo on my single stage press-an RCBS rock chucker. I bought a Square Deal (before the "B" came out-prob. ~1987?). I load rifle ammo on the single stage (.223 and 30-06) and pistol on the Dillon-9mm, .38. .357, .44 mag.

The progressive press is easy enough to figure out if you pay attention.

[FlySubCompact]

jmorris,

Followed the links you your Youtube videos and all I can say is my hat is off to you, sir. Awesome work.

[schmellba99]

I have the Hornady LnL AP and just ran it one case at a time for awhile to learn the process. I pretty well had my loads worked up, but if I were working up a new one I would do it one case at a time also.

This.

Shoot, because I don't get to shoot as much as I'd like, my reloading seems to come in spurts and I generally run several cases single through my LnL AP before I really crank up the volume just to make sure my sets are right and that I get back in the right habit before trying to do too much. It's not a big deal.

RE: the comment about a single stage. I still recommend that everybody start off with one, even if for a short time frame personally. It teaches you the intricacies of each individual step, which makes life infinitely easier when you are trying to combine 4-6 individual steps into one singular action. If you don't know what each step does, how it should do it and what the end product should look like, odds are you are going to have a major malfunction when trying to crank out the mythical 600 RPH on a manual progressive and not even know it. Kind of like starting off shooting with a Red Ryder BB gun instead of a .300 Win Mag with a 24x turret scope an a 20MOA rail - it's just good general practice for the vast majority of people out there.