difference in powders?

Keenan Goss · March 15, 2007, 12:38 PM

I'm new to this forum, and new to reloading, so I have a question for you all. I recently recieved my dies in .30-06 and .30-30, for the lee challenger press. I bought IMR 4064 powder for both cartridges, and when looking up the recipe for these loads in the LEE manual, I noticed A-XMR 4064 and IMR 4064 with the same vaules, or the same grains. (maybe a tenth or two difference.) My question is, on other calibers, there is a recipe for A-XMR 4064, but not for IMR 4064. Would it be safe to substitute IMR 4064 for A-XMR 4064? Thanks for all your help?

**Unclenick** · March 15, 2007, 03:34 PM

No. It isn't even safe to put the same brand of powder into a load in the same maximum load quantity if the lot number is different. Every time you change lots of components, you have to go back to the starting loads, and work them up again. Most often you will wind up back where you were originally, but not always. The importance of this practice goes double for near-equivalent powder numbers from other makers. Chances are they match really well in some cartridges and not in others. Small differences in manufacturing processes or raw material sources can become much more apparent in some case/bullet combinations than in others.

That said, the XMR powder has the designation it does to indicate it is generally close in characteristics to the other brand of that same number. Same with Hodgdon's H prefix powder names. This generally means you can interchange them in starting loads, but nothing else. Look at the powder maker's web sites for loads in your chambering and bullet weight, both in the brand you worked the load up with, and in the brand you want to substitute. Whichever company publishes the smaller starting load, use that load information for your workups.

mrawesome22 · March 15, 2007, 04:35 PM

Absolutely not. You should always look up loads before you buy powder anyway. Look on IMR's website, they'll have loads there.

cheygriz · March 15, 2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

This generally means you can interchange them in starting loads, but nothing else. Look at the powder maker's web sites for loads in your chambering and bullet weight, both in the brand you worked the load up with, and in the brand you want to substitute. Whichever company publishes the smaller starting load, use that load information for your workups

.

I agree with Unclenick.

Stick to the lower starting load and work up carefully from there.

In past years, I used quite a bit of IMR 4227 and H 4227. I dound that there was as much difference in lot numbers from the same company as there was between brands.

Just be careful, and work up slowly.

Keenan Goss · March 16, 2007, 11:28 AM

Thank you, I was following by the manual. I was just confused by the wording. I thought they were the same company being A-XMR and IMR?

mrawesome22 · March 16, 2007, 08:17 PM

No, A-XMR 4064 is made by Accurate Powder. IMR 4064 is made by IMR.

Keenan Goss · March 16, 2007, 09:58 PM

This question is totally off the subject. I just noticed that the Lee auto prime will not handle the .223 wssm. The cartride is too fat for the loader. What other piece of equipment would handle this type of cartridge? Similar to the construction of the Lee auto prime. I have a single stage press, so I would like it to be hand held.

mrawesome22 · March 16, 2007, 10:05 PM

RCBS makes a universal hand primer, but I think it costs about $50.

Kato_Guy · March 17, 2007, 01:13 AM

my lee auto prime wouldn't take my wsm. I ground out the hand prime with a dremel and now the wsm case fits like a glove. It should work for yoour wssm as well.

rogn · March 17, 2007, 09:17 AM

I ve heard that the newest Lee tools fit the WSMs, other wise Dremel is your friend.

**Unclenick** · March 17, 2007, 11:47 AM

If you are loading for precision (high accuracy) you may want to look at the K&M primer seating tool. You can call the maker and doublecheck compatibility with the WSM first. This is really a benchrest shooter's tool, and you put the primers in them one at a time. The Autoprime is the only one I know of with a primer tray built-in, but it also can somtimes make slight dents on primer faces. The K&M has a diminishing compound leverage system that lets you positively feel when the primer touches down in the bottom of the pocket so you don't crush it. It further uses a ground spring-loaded primer collar that ensures the case head is kept square to the primer as it starts in. At under $40 for the basic tool, I consider it a bargain. With a fancy dial indicator for measured rather than "feel" seated priming, it is around $98.

Another popular tool with benchresters is the Sinclair International primer seating tool. It has a very smooth feel. At $110, though, it is pricey.

Lots of fun toys out there.

Keenan Goss · March 17, 2007, 03:07 PM

Well, there are a lot of options out there. Being the novice that I am, which one will be the most user friendly? I would hate to try to modify my lee tool, because it fits all the other calibers perfect.

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2007, 10:10 PM

I still recommend the K&M tool. Brunoshooters.com, and several others sell it online. I don't think you really need the expensive dial indicator version unless you are shooting benchrest groups in the two's or below. The K&M uses the same shell holders as your Autoprime, so you are already partly equipped for it. The part that retains the holder is thinner than on the autoprime, or at least it is on mine, which I've had for some years. Call K&M Services and explain your problem with the Autoprime and that their tool was suggested to you, and make sure what I am telling you is still current and that it will work with your cases. (717) 292-3175.

Keenan Goss · March 19, 2007, 07:16 AM

Thanks unclenick, I will give them a call today. I was worried that I would have to buy a whole new set of shell holders, just to prime the .223 wssm.

cdoc42 · March 19, 2007, 02:28 PM

"IMR 4064 is made by IMR."

Wasn't IMR bought out by Hodgdon? They are still distributing the same line but I suspect it would make more sense in the future to stop the IMR line if there is very little practical difference between the H- and IMR products.

Jim Watson · March 19, 2007, 02:42 PM

Hodgdon bought out IMR Powder of New York, which was the US distributor of Expro made IMR powders from CANADA! They do not own the factory.
DuPont quit making gunpowder about 1976, production moved to Canada under their name for a while, then as IMR Powder.

Hodgdon imports their H-xxxx powders from Australia; but get the "Spherical" powders from St Marks, Florida.

Accurate Arms imports their XMR powders from all over the world, I don't know where they are getting XMR4064 right now, but they have sold powder from Israel, Communist China, Czechoslovakia, South Africa, and even the USA. AA is now owned by Western Powder which has been selling Ramshot powders mostly but not entirely from Belgium.

TEDDY · March 19, 2007, 07:04 PM

K GOSS: call Lee and see if their tool will except the wsm case.the shell holders are not the problem.its the casting.they were not made for large cases.

I love my fellow posters they must be rich.

Keenan Goss · March 19, 2007, 07:23 PM

What I noticed Hodgdon and IMR, their address is the same. I recieved info from IMR about the powder I just recieved, and Hodgdon had a booklet stuffed in it. So will they keep making the IMR powder?

March 15, 2007, 12:38 PM	#1
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	difference in powders? I'm new to this forum, and new to reloading, so I have a question for you all. I recently recieved my dies in .30-06 and .30-30, for the lee challenger press. I bought IMR 4064 powder for both cartridges, and when looking up the recipe for these loads in the LEE manual, I noticed A-XMR 4064 and IMR 4064 with the same vaules, or the same grains. (maybe a tenth or two difference.) My question is, on other calibers, there is a recipe for A-XMR 4064, but not for IMR 4064. Would it be safe to substitute IMR 4064 for A-XMR 4064? Thanks for all your help?

March 15, 2007, 03:34 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,062	No. It isn't even safe to put the same brand of powder into a load in the same maximum load quantity if the lot number is different. Every time you change lots of components, you have to go back to the starting loads, and work them up again. Most often you will wind up back where you were originally, but not always. The importance of this practice goes double for near-equivalent powder numbers from other makers. Chances are they match really well in some cartridges and not in others. Small differences in manufacturing processes or raw material sources can become much more apparent in some case/bullet combinations than in others. That said, the XMR powder has the designation it does to indicate it is generally close in characteristics to the other brand of that same number. Same with Hodgdon's H prefix powder names. This generally means you can interchange them in starting loads, but nothing else. Look at the powder maker's web sites for loads in your chambering and bullet weight, both in the brand you worked the load up with, and in the brand you want to substitute. Whichever company publishes the smaller starting load, use that load information for your workups. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 17, 2007 at 11:30 AM. Reason: emphasis on key words

March 17, 2007, 11:47 AM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,062	If you are loading for precision (high accuracy) you may want to look at the K&M primer seating tool. You can call the maker and doublecheck compatibility with the WSM first. This is really a benchrest shooter's tool, and you put the primers in them one at a time. The Autoprime is the only one I know of with a primer tray built-in, but it also can somtimes make slight dents on primer faces. The K&M has a diminishing compound leverage system that lets you positively feel when the primer touches down in the bottom of the pocket so you don't crush it. It further uses a ground spring-loaded primer collar that ensures the case head is kept square to the primer as it starts in. At under $40 for the basic tool, I consider it a bargain. With a fancy dial indicator for measured rather than "feel" seated priming, it is around $98. Another popular tool with benchresters is the Sinclair International primer seating tool. It has a very smooth feel. At $110, though, it is pricey. Lots of fun toys out there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 18, 2007, 10:10 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,062	I still recommend the K&M tool. Brunoshooters.com, and several others sell it online. I don't think you really need the expensive dial indicator version unless you are shooting benchrest groups in the two's or below. The K&M uses the same shell holders as your Autoprime, so you are already partly equipped for it. The part that retains the holder is thinner than on the autoprime, or at least it is on mine, which I've had for some years. Call K&M Services and explain your problem with the Autoprime and that their tool was suggested to you, and make sure what I am telling you is still current and that it will work with your cases. (717) 292-3175. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 19, 2007, 07:04 PM	#17
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	priming K GOSS: call Lee and see if their tool will except the wsm case.the shell holders are not the problem.its the casting.they were not made for large cases. I love my fellow posters they must be rich.

March 15, 2007, 04:35 PM	#3
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Absolutely not. You should always look up loads before you buy powder anyway. Look on IMR's website, they'll have loads there.

March 16, 2007, 11:28 AM	#5
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	Thank you, I was following by the manual. I was just confused by the wording. I thought they were the same company being A-XMR and IMR?

March 16, 2007, 08:17 PM	#6
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	No, A-XMR 4064 is made by Accurate Powder. IMR 4064 is made by IMR.

March 16, 2007, 09:58 PM	#7
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	This question is totally off the subject. I just noticed that the Lee auto prime will not handle the .223 wssm. The cartride is too fat for the loader. What other piece of equipment would handle this type of cartridge? Similar to the construction of the Lee auto prime. I have a single stage press, so I would like it to be hand held.

March 16, 2007, 10:05 PM	#8
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	RCBS makes a universal hand primer, but I think it costs about $50.

March 17, 2007, 01:13 AM	#9
Kato_Guy Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 212	my lee auto prime wouldn't take my wsm. I ground out the hand prime with a dremel and now the wsm case fits like a glove. It should work for yoour wssm as well.

March 17, 2007, 09:17 AM	#10
rogn Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2005 Posts: 203	I ve heard that the newest Lee tools fit the WSMs, other wise Dremel is your friend.

March 17, 2007, 03:07 PM	#12
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	Well, there are a lot of options out there. Being the novice that I am, which one will be the most user friendly? I would hate to try to modify my lee tool, because it fits all the other calibers perfect.

March 19, 2007, 07:16 AM	#14
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	Thanks unclenick, I will give them a call today. I was worried that I would have to buy a whole new set of shell holders, just to prime the .223 wssm.

March 19, 2007, 02:28 PM	#15
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	"IMR 4064 is made by IMR." Wasn't IMR bought out by Hodgdon? They are still distributing the same line but I suspect it would make more sense in the future to stop the IMR line if there is very little practical difference between the H- and IMR products.

March 19, 2007, 02:42 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Hodgdon bought out IMR Powder of New York, which was the US distributor of Expro made IMR powders from CANADA! They do not own the factory. DuPont quit making gunpowder about 1976, production moved to Canada under their name for a while, then as IMR Powder. Hodgdon imports their H-xxxx powders from Australia; but get the "Spherical" powders from St Marks, Florida. Accurate Arms imports their XMR powders from all over the world, I don't know where they are getting XMR4064 right now, but they have sold powder from Israel, Communist China, Czechoslovakia, South Africa, and even the USA. AA is now owned by Western Powder which has been selling Ramshot powders mostly but not entirely from Belgium.

March 19, 2007, 07:23 PM	#18
Keenan Goss Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 27	What I noticed Hodgdon and IMR, their address is the same. I recieved info from IMR about the powder I just recieved, and Hodgdon had a booklet stuffed in it. So will they keep making the IMR powder?