handguns for stopping vehicles

[SARuger]

I have heard that the VA state police switched to the .357 SIG because the old .40 would not consistently penetrate a windshield. Thats what I was told by a VA State police officer anyway.

[44 AMP]

police switched to the ..... because the old ..... would not consistently penetrate a windshield.

This is a combination of urban legend and actual valid complaint, and NOT a new thing at all.

It is a matter of cartridge load, and impact material and angle. When the era of "auto bandits" arrived, many police turned to the .38 Super, because the .45 and .38 Special were simply not good enough penetrating car bodies. (I never heard of the 9mm Luger ever being considered )

When the .357 Magnum arrived, it became the king for that. The famous "crack an engine block" performance comes from that era.

Car bodies had actual steel in them in those days, and windshield glass was ordinary glass, and nearly always vertical or close to it.

I saw a write up once (in the 70-s) using 50s-60s cars for tests, and one of the things discovered was that the standard 200gr .38 Spl would not reliably penetrate a car windshield, when fired from a snub nose (Det Spl) but would get through, fired from the standard 6" service revolver.

Today, windshields are made of composite layers (safety glass), and are very often sloped at very good angles for ballistic protection. (think of the front slope of a tank's armor).

It is the combination of hard surface, and angle that defeats the bullet. Even rifle rounds "glance off" certain angles (and curves) when a 90 degree shot will punch through easily.

Elephant hunters learned in the heyday of the ivory trade that there is a certain velocity range/bullet weight needed to get through the elephant's skull. Rounds below that range wouldn't get in and do the job, and rounds above that range (higher velocity) would glance off, too often for comfort.

It also works that way for other things. right size & speed (for the material & angle) it gets through. Outside of that, either way, usually doesn't.

To penetrate a car, bust the engine, kill it, probably the best handgun rounds for that were made by KTW. Needle pointed tungsten carbide, Teflon coated.

These were the rounds that (after a decade or two in production) when discovered by the anti-gun zealots, created the "Teflon coated Cop Killer Bullet" scare. They were Teflon coated, all right, not for penetration (although I don't think that hurt any) but to protect the bore of the gun they were fired from. Made for, and only sold to the police market.

NEVER sold to the public. Never saw or heard any data about them ever being used to shoot any police, anywhere. Only in the minds of the antis, and in Hollywood movies financed by them.

[Bultaco]

I think our military has some experience with it and weapons like an RPG or a LAW would be the baseline to stop the vehicle not just kill the driver.

[peggysue]

related article about shooting engine blocks just out..

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...kly+Newsletter

[DA/SA Fan]

Originally posted by IBMIKEY

Get real fellows, the chance a situation would present it's self where an individual would be faced with a car killing decision are astronomical. Second, if one did shoot at a vehicle I can just see all the ramifications of such an act. Unless your concealed carry is a RPG I would suggest concealed carry is for defensive protection and not assaults on the Nation's motor vehicles.

I don't think anyone carries for every day occurrences. If it happens, it happens astronomical odds don't matter at that point. Because we don't carry RPG's it doesn't hurt to give some thought to what you would do if you ever had to. As long as you don't lose any sleep over it you're O.K.!

[BoogieMan]

If I knew I would have to stop a car I would (as someone else stated) have a 30-06 with an AP round. Thats enough to break cylinders, heads, connecting rods, maybe even cranks. Better yet would be a 50BMG- Coast Guard uses that pretty effectively to stop boats.
As for a handgun your only good chance is the driver. As a civilian I cant see a scenario in which I would need to stop a car and I would be armed with a handgun. I would feel more comfortable jumping in my car and using the PITS. I have an attitude that: my stuff is insured, take it.

[Ibmikey]

DA/SA without being loquacious as in the first post my point is personal defense is paramount with me so instead of taking on a vehicle with my carry pistol (usually .380) i would use it to withdraw to a safer position.

[triumph666]

any bullet can go through a windshield and kill an occupant....disabling the actual vehicle is a little bit more difficult.....it would take an armor piercing round through the engine block to stop engine within minutes......other than that you need to disable the igntion system.....good luck with that.....any other disabling shot requires engine to overheat or run out of oil and overheat which may take miles...so....shoot the driver! because if you decide to shoot the tire instead of engine....you can still make it quite a ways on o rim!

[tipoc]

We can learn something about this from the "Box-O-Truth"...

Here is the outside/in shooting results...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...lds-outsidein/

more than adequate penetration with the 9mm, 40 and 45 acp.
Here the inside/out results...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buic...lds-insideout/

The same here. But look and draw your own conclusions.

tipoc

[DA/SA Fan]

Ibmikey. What about the scenario I laid out before? Someone pulls up to the sidewalk, pulls your granddaughter in the car, and takes off. There you stand with a .380 in your pocket. What do you do? Granted your chances of stopping a car are slim but I think it would be better to try than not. The question is what is the best way to try?

[bungiex88]

Them newer critical duty bullets are made to help the bullet not deflect as much through a windshield

[Sharkbite]

Ibmikey. What about the scenario I laid out before? Someone pulls up to the sidewalk, pulls your granddaughter in the car, and takes off. There you stand with a .380 in your pocket. What do you do? Granted your chances of stopping a car are slim but I think it would be better to try than not. The question is what is the best way to try?

That is probably the worst scenario to fire at the car.

First, in order to hit the engine you would need to MISS the granddaughter. The sheet metal of the car body is likely to allow the bullet to penetrate, but the chance of scoring a engine disabling hit are remote at best.

[DA/SA Fan]

I don't know. If you empty a magazine into the radiator how far will the car get? Maybe a shot worth taking in the extreme situation? Likewise if you don't get a shot from the front might it be worth trying to shoot out a tire? If a gun even has a slight chance of making the situation more recoverable is it better to take the shot or reach for your cell phone instead? Me, I think I'd do both.

Just trying to change the premise of the OP a little from "does it work like in the movies?" to "what's the best way to try?"

[44 AMP]

If you empty a magazine into the radiator how far will the car get?

Might make it 10 miles. Might not. Depends on how hard the driver is pushing it, and the outside air temp. Absolutely can make it out of your sight, with just radiator hits. Now, if you hit the timing chain/belt, that's a different matter.

[DA/SA Fan]

If it quits when the bad guy gets to the highway you have a better chance of the LEO getting him. If someone abducts a child he won't drive around the block to his house. It's a good bet he's using a highway to get away. Out of sight, most likely but worth trying I think.

[darkgael]

Let me get this straight.....you are talking about shooting at a moving vehicle that has your granddaughter in it?

[DA/SA Fan]

Let me get this straight.....you are talking about shooting at a moving vehicle that has your granddaughter in it?

Not with an RPG. Do you try, or write off the child to God knows what fate?

[Chris_B]

If you empty a magazine into the radiator how far will the car get? Maybe a shot worth taking in the extreme situation? Likewise if you don't get a shot from the front might it be worth trying to shoot out a tire? If a gun even has a slight chance of making the situation more recoverable is it better to take the shot or reach for your cell phone instead? Me, I think I'd do both.

Completely subjective. You need to pierce the tank or the cooling lines that join the tanks, or one of the radiator hoses, and then it matters where they were damaged and how quickly it drains. I guess we hope the badguy does not have an old VW Beetle they were air cooled and the engine was in back.

Tires? IMO fantasy unless you are quite close and even then you need to know deflection. Are there guys and girls out there that are that good with a firearm? Sure. I bet you and I are not among their number. But if you're that close to the car, worry about being run down.

This whole scenario we're discussing is pretty far-fetched but I would recommend risk assessment instead of using the mindset that says any chance is worth taking. The key here is 'chance'. Presumably, you're not simply risking missing the tire. Or radiator. Or driver. You're risking hitting an occupant you want unharmed. You're also risking whoever is in the path of your wildly shot attempts at knocking out a tire, etc. Maybe somebody else's child, grandchild, etc. How do they factor into the odds? Acceptable?

We can put so many parameters on this thing that Santa Claus and Superman could be involved but I think we'd all agree that this scenario is an extremely unlikely one. Fine to toss around what ifs but we should remember that they are just that.

[tipoc]

Ibmikey. What about the scenario I laid out before? Someone pulls up to the sidewalk, pulls your granddaughter in the car, and takes off. There you stand with a .380 in your pocket. What do you do? Granted your chances of stopping a car are slim but I think it would be better to try than not. The question is what is the best way to try?

You have a .380 in your mitt and you are thinking of shooting to stop a car. It's a .380...not alot of power there. You do need some punch for penetration and for getting through a hood and into something important. And since you can't see under the hood not a lot to aim at.

Also since it's a 380 exactly what thing do you hope to hit that will stop the vehicle immediately. Trying to make a One Shot Stop with a handgun is not something I'd count on.

Maybe you have a clean shot and can hit the driver...and maybe the vehicle crashes with your grand daughter in it. Since, hypothetically, how fast is this make believe vehicle driving?

Do you try, or write off the child to God knows what fate?

We already know one fate...a fella with a .380 shooting blindly at a vehicle in the hopes he hits something important with a caliber that does not have all that much punch.

Cell phone...license plate...description of the vehicle...cops. Maybe get another vehicle and follow safely till cops respond. Then they can shoot up the vehicle.

Shoot out a headlight...then when you call in the license plate, description of kidnapper and vehicle, etc. you can add that it has a busted headlight or tail light.

While we're at it...in this scenario it's likely that you'll know the kidnapper. Likely it'll be your ex son in law who snatched the kid to get him away from his crazy gun toting grandpa who thinks he can stop a vehicle with his .380 by shooting wildly at the engine compartment of a rapidly moving vehicle on an urban street.

Since this is hypothetical, just call Liam Neeson, he'll get your grand daughter back.

tipoc

[boondocker385]

IED, rpg or other shoulder mounted propelled munitions. Handgun. ...not so much although a Contender in 50 bmg might work....it would definitely maim on one end and kill on the other.

[Ibmikey]

The whole topic of shooting cars and the related fantasy situations are beyond reality. Anyone who has actually tried to stop a vehicle with average police carry weaponry can relate to the difficulty (yes i can speak from experience) the average schmoe should not be preparing for the opportunity to kill mechanical devices when his personal defense skills are probably in need of honing.
It is a heck of a lot of fun to shoot at vehicles during training sessions or watching exhibitions on tv but in none of these cases is the only fire power Joe Citizen's five shot .38 spec. In summation if you wish to stop a vehicle with your EDC ask the bad guy to first put 100# of tannerite in the front seat with him.

[4V50 Gary]

I would not count on a handgun bullet to pierce a windshield. Yes it can, but it can also deflect.

As for shooting tires, better be good at a moving target.

Now, radiators are doable but if the vehicle is fleeing away from you, then it's likely to present the backside and not the radiator.

[DA/SA Fan]

Tipoc's assumptions of blind spray and pray shooting aside, ALL shooting scenarios are pure fantasy until they happen. A one shot stop isn't anything I mentioned and I don't think it at all likely but I still contend that you have a better chance of a good outcome if the BG doesn't get to where he wants to go. Disable the vehicle or at least mark it with bullet holes in the fender.

[Carmady]

What's with all the radiator stuff? I'll bet a car would run for at least 10 miles with no radiator.

[45_auto]

I can tell you for a fact that a Toyota Corolla will go 36 miles at 70 MPH with a totally destroyed lower radiator hose and no water in it. At that point it will blow the head gasket, lose compression on a couple of cylinders, then still go another 10 miles at about 20 MPH to the nearest gas station.