Which K-Hornet variant do i have?

mattL46 · January 21, 2015, 11:19 PM

I know there are several variants. Differences in body dimensions and shoulder angles. I bought the RCBS full length die set. The measurements in the load manuals aren't really even close to what I've measured on the brass that came out of my particular chamber. Pics on the way.

mattL46 · January 21, 2015, 11:28 PM

Now I'm aware that all chamber dimensions aren't particularly the same but the measurements I've come up with don't really seem close to any variant I've researched. That being the original kilbourne the KE hornet or the 40° K-hornet shoulder variant. My mesuarments are from the bottom edge of the rim to bottom of the shoulder...1.050 roughly and to the top edge of shoulder...1.135ish. Neck length about .242 any ideas? Id really like to know the shoulder angle for sizing purposes. I've read the rcbs dies use a 40° angle. any thoughts anyone?

chiefr · January 22, 2015, 09:21 AM

Yep, sometimes there are variances with wildcats as not all reamers are the same.

I would do a chamber cast and see how close it mikes out to the original drawing of the K Hornet. You can also do a chamber cast on your die itself and compare notes.

Another option would be to fireform your brass and NSO thereafter.

mattL46 · January 22, 2015, 12:59 PM

Thanks for the info chief. The cartridges in the photo were loaded with my rcbs die. They were fairly accurate. I had some vertical stringing, which I'm sure was my fault. I get a little too obsessive with these things, so ill keep with the dies I'm using and see how it goes. The shoulder on my cartridges in the photo just don't resemble any K-hornet photos I've seen. My shoulder has got kind of a round profile where others are sharp and seem to taper flat. I just worry that the rcbs die isn't contacting the shoulder. I've considered having a custom die made with my fire formed brass but that is rather costly. Ill see about casting the die and comparing it to my fire formed brass.

chiefr · January 22, 2015, 04:05 PM

I used to be into the Hornet nest, but got stung some time ago and sold all. The Hornet has always been one of the worse carts I ever reloaded. Most brass is thin and easily crushed when seating bullets. You have to be extra careful.

One veteran Hornet guy told me about reaming my chamber out to the K Hornet and brass would be easier to work with as you actually have a shoulder and I took the bait. Reloading was easier, case life longer, plus the extra FPS.
I think you have a good deal going. I would go ahead and fire form some brass, anneal, and neck size only providing you have only one Hornet

Longshot4 · January 22, 2015, 05:23 PM

I have a 22 K Hornet and I love it. It's in a Ruger 77 the bolt is shimmed, the trigger tuned and the barrel is floated. Lil'Gun with Hornady 35gr and #6 1/2 primer is the load that shoots best. "For now" As far as that shoulder angle goes find the reamer and you should have the angle. I don't have that information either. If you can get it into a machine shop they should be able to help you with a what you need in the gage room. I usually neck size but recently purchased a FL die. I am experimenting with just bumping the shoulder by placing a .002" feeler gage between the shell holder and the die when setting the locking ring. My plan is to keep the locking ring locked. Although I will be waiting for spring before more load testing will continue. I have consulted with Redding and they recommend bumping after 1 or 2 neck sizing. For now I sting squirrel heads at what ever range they pop up.

Longshot4 · January 22, 2015, 05:50 PM

My K Hornet cases use to give me a problem when seating flat base bullets but not any more. If you are careful to make sure you have a proper inside chamfer out side as well. Not a knife edge. Very slowly raise the loaded case and bullet carefully with your fingers into the seater. When it gently bumps the seater a few times you should feel it start or it will be started. Ever since I started the bullet in this manner I haven't had one single damaged case.

mattL46 · January 22, 2015, 08:19 PM

Good info long shot. No chance of finding the reamer. I inherited this rifle. Its been in the family for years. Its a gorgeous custom low wall. I too bought a FL die to experiment with bumping. But I'm unsure of the shoulder in the die contacting the shoulder on the brass. I tried several ways to tell. I put some sharpie on the shoulder and ran it through. No smeared or missing ink. I even lowered the die "too" low and the only thing that seemed to happen was the neck grew longer. I then took a bullet comparator insert that would fit over the neck and contact the shoulder..(I know this is not a listed method,just trying for smiles and grins figured it may tell me something) and it didn't appear to set back at all. So I didn't take that too seriously considering the method there. So I not sure. Is there a formula with the appropriate measurements to find the shoulder angle?

chiefr · January 22, 2015, 11:12 PM

I just could never get good case life out of any Hornet (K or regular) when I bumped the shoulder back after initial firing. NSO for me.

One last note:
I picked up some European Hornet ammo at a gunshow years ago. After fire-forming and reloading, I noticed this brass was thicker than WW & RP. I reloaded several times and found it far superior. I can't remember whether it was RWS or SBP as it was long ago. If you can find any grab it.

mattL46 · January 22, 2015, 11:47 PM

That will probably be the route I take chief. Thank you for your good info. I do need better brass. I'm afraid the PPU brass I have now isn't very good. I lost a little less than a 1/3 upon fire forming. I have some more once fired standard that I may anneal before loading to see if I can spare some fire forming.

Longshot4 · January 23, 2015, 04:07 AM

Where is F.Guffey when we need him?

**Unclenick** · January 23, 2015, 07:34 AM

Several things seem to be going on here. I think you'd better take a look at the SAAMI drawing for the plain old, K-free Hornet. The dimensions it gives from the head to the start of the shoulder is 1.0471". Did your brass start out as Hornet brass? If so, I think the reason your shoulder is rounded is the case simply has never been subjected to enough pressure to blow the shoulder fully out into the chamber.

I note that the new SAAMI standard Hornet case is just 1.350" long, where old drawings have 1.400". I looked at 6 different sets of K-Hornet dimensions. If you have that greater old case length, then your neck length suggests the closest match is to the 1951 Landis dimensions cited in The Illustrated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions (Wolfe, 1993; no individual author). Those dimensions have a 0.242" neck. The shoulder is given as 35°; the length from the head to the start of the shoulder is calculated from other dimensions as 1.126", and the length from the head to the top of the shoulder is calculated to be 1.161". A second version of that 35° K-Hornet has the head to the start of the shoulder as 1.116", and it has a slightly thicker neck, so the top of the shoulder moves back to 1.149", and the neck is then .254".

The K-Hornet with 40° shoulder has a neck 0.279" long with a case length of 1.389". But if your brass started as the newer, shorter 1.350" Hornet brass, then that would drop to 0.240". So if your cases started out at 1.350" length, then the 40° K-Hornet is the most likely match.

mattL46 · January 23, 2015, 09:07 AM

@uncle nick thank you for the good info. It is possible that I've not allowed for a complete fire forming. The very first load was a standard fireform load. Don't remember the specifics. But it was a starting load. The next two "K-hornet" loads after fire forming were from hornady 50gn bullet starting load of 7.1 then worked up to 7.7 which is only the second tier of data (out of 4 I believe) I was aware that I might not be completely formed but thought the second higher load would have done it. Maybe not. Do you suggest I work up to near maximum and see if we have any changes? I too literally spent my entire last day off comparing drawings...if I remember I found at least six. Possibly more. And none of them seemed to compare to what I have. When I'm home I will measure the standard hornet brass I'm using to fire form. Its once fired PPU brass. Any more info will ceartianly help. Now I'm no expert so you may have a reason..but I'll just say...the saami link you posted was for a 17 K hornet. I'm using a 22-K Hornet. There may be a reason I'm unfamiliar with. I have studied the original Kilbourne hornet drawing. I'll look again and take closer measurements.

mattL46 · January 23, 2015, 09:41 AM

Measured my ppu brass before leaving the house. Standard hornet twice fired 1.408

January 21, 2015, 11:19 PM	#1
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Which K-Hornet variant do i have? I know there are several variants. Differences in body dimensions and shoulder angles. I bought the RCBS full length die set. The measurements in the load manuals aren't really even close to what I've measured on the brass that came out of my particular chamber. Pics on the way.

January 23, 2015, 07:34 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Several things seem to be going on here. I think you'd better take a look at the SAAMI drawing for the plain old, K-free Hornet. The dimensions it gives from the head to the start of the shoulder is 1.0471". Did your brass start out as Hornet brass? If so, I think the reason your shoulder is rounded is the case simply has never been subjected to enough pressure to blow the shoulder fully out into the chamber. I note that the new SAAMI standard Hornet case is just 1.350" long, where old drawings have 1.400". I looked at 6 different sets of K-Hornet dimensions. If you have that greater old case length, then your neck length suggests the closest match is to the 1951 Landis dimensions cited in The Illustrated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions (Wolfe, 1993; no individual author). Those dimensions have a 0.242" neck. The shoulder is given as 35°; the length from the head to the start of the shoulder is calculated from other dimensions as 1.126", and the length from the head to the top of the shoulder is calculated to be 1.161". A second version of that 35° K-Hornet has the head to the start of the shoulder as 1.116", and it has a slightly thicker neck, so the top of the shoulder moves back to 1.149", and the neck is then .254". The K-Hornet with 40° shoulder has a neck 0.279" long with a case length of 1.389". But if your brass started as the newer, shorter 1.350" Hornet brass, then that would drop to 0.240". So if your cases started out at 1.350" length, then the 40° K-Hornet is the most likely match. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 21, 2015, 11:28 PM	#2
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Now I'm aware that all chamber dimensions aren't particularly the same but the measurements I've come up with don't really seem close to any variant I've researched. That being the original kilbourne the KE hornet or the 40° K-hornet shoulder variant. My mesuarments are from the bottom edge of the rim to bottom of the shoulder...1.050 roughly and to the top edge of shoulder...1.135ish. Neck length about .242 any ideas? Id really like to know the shoulder angle for sizing purposes. I've read the rcbs dies use a 40° angle. any thoughts anyone?

January 22, 2015, 09:21 AM	#3
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	Yep, sometimes there are variances with wildcats as not all reamers are the same. I would do a chamber cast and see how close it mikes out to the original drawing of the K Hornet. You can also do a chamber cast on your die itself and compare notes. Another option would be to fireform your brass and NSO thereafter.

January 22, 2015, 12:59 PM	#4
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks for the info chief. The cartridges in the photo were loaded with my rcbs die. They were fairly accurate. I had some vertical stringing, which I'm sure was my fault. I get a little too obsessive with these things, so ill keep with the dies I'm using and see how it goes. The shoulder on my cartridges in the photo just don't resemble any K-hornet photos I've seen. My shoulder has got kind of a round profile where others are sharp and seem to taper flat. I just worry that the rcbs die isn't contacting the shoulder. I've considered having a custom die made with my fire formed brass but that is rather costly. Ill see about casting the die and comparing it to my fire formed brass.

January 22, 2015, 04:05 PM	#5
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I used to be into the Hornet nest, but got stung some time ago and sold all. The Hornet has always been one of the worse carts I ever reloaded. Most brass is thin and easily crushed when seating bullets. You have to be extra careful. One veteran Hornet guy told me about reaming my chamber out to the K Hornet and brass would be easier to work with as you actually have a shoulder and I took the bait. Reloading was easier, case life longer, plus the extra FPS. I think you have a good deal going. I would go ahead and fire form some brass, anneal, and neck size only providing you have only one Hornet

January 22, 2015, 05:23 PM	#6
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	I have a 22 K Hornet and I love it. It's in a Ruger 77 the bolt is shimmed, the trigger tuned and the barrel is floated. Lil'Gun with Hornady 35gr and #6 1/2 primer is the load that shoots best. "For now" As far as that shoulder angle goes find the reamer and you should have the angle. I don't have that information either. If you can get it into a machine shop they should be able to help you with a what you need in the gage room. I usually neck size but recently purchased a FL die. I am experimenting with just bumping the shoulder by placing a .002" feeler gage between the shell holder and the die when setting the locking ring. My plan is to keep the locking ring locked. Although I will be waiting for spring before more load testing will continue. I have consulted with Redding and they recommend bumping after 1 or 2 neck sizing. For now I sting squirrel heads at what ever range they pop up.

January 22, 2015, 05:50 PM	#7
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	My K Hornet cases use to give me a problem when seating flat base bullets but not any more. If you are careful to make sure you have a proper inside chamfer out side as well. Not a knife edge. Very slowly raise the loaded case and bullet carefully with your fingers into the seater. When it gently bumps the seater a few times you should feel it start or it will be started. Ever since I started the bullet in this manner I haven't had one single damaged case.

January 22, 2015, 08:19 PM	#8
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Good info long shot. No chance of finding the reamer. I inherited this rifle. Its been in the family for years. Its a gorgeous custom low wall. I too bought a FL die to experiment with bumping. But I'm unsure of the shoulder in the die contacting the shoulder on the brass. I tried several ways to tell. I put some sharpie on the shoulder and ran it through. No smeared or missing ink. I even lowered the die "too" low and the only thing that seemed to happen was the neck grew longer. I then took a bullet comparator insert that would fit over the neck and contact the shoulder..(I know this is not a listed method,just trying for smiles and grins figured it may tell me something) and it didn't appear to set back at all. So I didn't take that too seriously considering the method there. So I not sure. Is there a formula with the appropriate measurements to find the shoulder angle?

January 22, 2015, 11:12 PM	#9
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I just could never get good case life out of any Hornet (K or regular) when I bumped the shoulder back after initial firing. NSO for me. One last note: I picked up some European Hornet ammo at a gunshow years ago. After fire-forming and reloading, I noticed this brass was thicker than WW & RP. I reloaded several times and found it far superior. I can't remember whether it was RWS or SBP as it was long ago. If you can find any grab it.

January 22, 2015, 11:47 PM	#10
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	That will probably be the route I take chief. Thank you for your good info. I do need better brass. I'm afraid the PPU brass I have now isn't very good. I lost a little less than a 1/3 upon fire forming. I have some more once fired standard that I may anneal before loading to see if I can spare some fire forming.

January 23, 2015, 04:07 AM	#11
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Where is F.Guffey when we need him?

January 23, 2015, 09:07 AM	#13
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	@uncle nick thank you for the good info. It is possible that I've not allowed for a complete fire forming. The very first load was a standard fireform load. Don't remember the specifics. But it was a starting load. The next two "K-hornet" loads after fire forming were from hornady 50gn bullet starting load of 7.1 then worked up to 7.7 which is only the second tier of data (out of 4 I believe) I was aware that I might not be completely formed but thought the second higher load would have done it. Maybe not. Do you suggest I work up to near maximum and see if we have any changes? I too literally spent my entire last day off comparing drawings...if I remember I found at least six. Possibly more. And none of them seemed to compare to what I have. When I'm home I will measure the standard hornet brass I'm using to fire form. Its once fired PPU brass. Any more info will ceartianly help. Now I'm no expert so you may have a reason..but I'll just say...the saami link you posted was for a 17 K hornet. I'm using a 22-K Hornet. There may be a reason I'm unfamiliar with. I have studied the original Kilbourne hornet drawing. I'll look again and take closer measurements.

January 23, 2015, 09:41 AM	#14
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Measured my ppu brass before leaving the house. Standard hornet twice fired 1.408