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Old September 8, 2007, 09:38 AM   #151
Mas Ayoob
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More proof that disarming is a good thing to know, and that it doesn't take the reincarnation of Bruce Lee to "make it happen."

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...oting_070906m/
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Old September 9, 2007, 06:40 PM   #152
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Quote:
No? You didn't read very far, about 4 paragraphs from the top:

Katelyn Van Allen, 18, refused to come downstairs when her mother, Anne, invited Moldovan to their Lake County home for an introduction to Self-Defense 101.
Credit where credit is due, I never saw a hyperlink, and read it as; "this article...." as if to say; "some article...." but I still doubt she was coerced. Seems to me that forced here means "convinced". By those standards, I'm "forced" to go to my mother in laws every other week. I don't see the duress.
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Old September 9, 2007, 08:27 PM   #153
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I don't see the duress.
Depends on the mother in law doesn't it?
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Old September 9, 2007, 08:42 PM   #154
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Depends on the mother in law doesn't it?
Maybe I could take a course in how to avoid it.
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Old September 11, 2007, 08:29 AM   #155
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Mas Ayoob said:
Quote:
Justme, I believe you're thinking of "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker.
I "read" it on tape while driving. While a hypocritical anti gunner, he has no problem with his "proffesionals" having guns, the amount of information on avoidence and controling the situation emotionally is fantastic. I thought it a worthwhile read.
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Old September 11, 2007, 08:57 AM   #156
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Mas, good link there. You know, during this whole thread I've been thinking of a young man we met this summer. Bet you have, too.

Agreed that The Gift of Fear is a worthwhile read.

And I'm still flabbergasted at the number of people who're willing to say

1) that women can't learn this stuff (no female cops exist, I guess)

2) that you can learn nothing worthwhile in any span less than "years" (how long does it take to learn a single technique in your dojo?)

3) that if you can't learn everything, you're better off if you learn nothing at all (Alexander Pope lives ...)

Such determined defense of ignorance really boggles the mind!

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Last edited by pax; September 11, 2007 at 11:59 AM.
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Old September 11, 2007, 04:38 PM   #157
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Came across a news article just now that somehow seemed appropriate for this thread -- particularly for the people saying "Never ever try to take a gun away because you'll get yourself killed!"

From http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7054446

Quote:
Burglar Shot and Killed by Homeowner

Sep 10, 2007 07:25 PM PDT


Homeowner Shoots Robbery Suspect in South Reno

On Monday at about 1:35 p.m. a homeowner arrived at his residence in the 400 block of Brittany Ave.

He entered his home and was almost immediately confronted by a burglar who pointed a gun at the victim and ordered him to the ground. The suspect then ordered the victim to crawl to the bathroom at the end of the hall and remain at that location while the suspect continued to burglarize the residence.

After a short time the suspect returned to the victim's location and placed a gun to his head. The victim believed he was about to be shot and he turned his head as the gun discharged. He then jumped to his feet and struggled with the suspect for the gun.

During this struggle the victim sustained two gunshot wounds to his upper body but managed to wrestle the gun from the suspect and fatally shoot the intruder.

The victim was transported to Renown Medical Center where he was admitted with non-life threatening injuries.


The suspect was declared deceased at the scene.

The suspect has not been identified at this time. The Reno Police Department's Robbery/Homicide Unit continues to investigate the shooting.
Homeowner would definitely have been dead, shot in the head at close range, if he hadn't tried for the disarm. As it was ... he is alive and the attacker is dead.

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Old September 11, 2007, 06:00 PM   #158
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http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_253174151.html

74-Year-Old Man Fights Off Mugger With Tire Iron
Retired Long Island Grandfather Overcomes Attacker Outside South Shore Mall


Yes it can be done. It has been done. This old guy took the tire iron from the attacker!

If you actually practice it for a while, you can disarm fairly well. But you actually have to practice, not once, but often. Just like shooting only more.

A one time disarm class gets you nowhere if you don't keep up the practice.
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Old September 12, 2007, 06:33 AM   #159
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Is it me or does nothing quite gratify like hearing about a 70-80 something yr old guy who pounds the heck out of a teenage punk who tried to jack him
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Old September 12, 2007, 07:31 AM   #160
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The older you get the better it sounds.
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Old September 12, 2007, 07:34 AM   #161
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Nice links gents!
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Old September 12, 2007, 07:50 AM   #162
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I have been to that mall plenty of times and have already commented on this locally. The old man was an idiot. He is lucky to be alive.

You do not volunteer to engage in combat unarmed with someone 40 years your junior and armed with a tire iron. He got out of the car he was in to do this.

The man is made out as a hero because the media loves to hype the 1 in 100 who oppose an armed criminal unarmed and prevail. Of course the numerous people beaten and left for dead get a single mention in the media at the time of the crime but this guy will be held up again and again as a shining example... of stupidity.
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:03 AM   #163
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Musketeer,

While his actions might not make sense for you they might be perfectly logical for him. You might risk quite a bit by doing something like that but if all he has to look forward to are days of Geritol and Depends standing up to a punk might be the best thing he's done in a decade.

If more people were willing to take a risk to preserve honor we'd all be better off.
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:07 AM   #164
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Sorry glock glocker but no. He was obviously healthy enough to get out of that cr and engage in some form of physical confrontation. It does not sound like he was in a condition where he was waiting for death to take him from his sufferring.

He put himself in mortal danger by exiting the several thousand pounds of protection, escape and if need be weapon, in order to go mano y mano with a tire iron armed thug. Brave? Fine, he was brave. Stupid? Beyond a Doubt!
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:16 AM   #165
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"preserve honor"? What a bunch of BS. Over-reaction to loss of honor or being dissed is best left to the young and dumb.

to tie this in with this thread, this is exactly the type of nonsense that I believe this so-called self defense classes promote. Keep as many things as possible between you and the bad guy. Buildings are best, a car or two is good, a car door is better than nothing.
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:22 AM   #166
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Thread is going nowhere. Just a bunch of blather now.

The main point was whether the course would be useful. Some here deny it for irrational reasons that Pax, Mas and others point out.

Let the lean, mean fighting machines not send their kids to self-defense courses and let's be done with it.

It's called evolution.
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:50 AM   #167
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If preserving his life is the primary objective his course of action was not the wisest but at that point he might have valued his dignity more, it's his choice. Just because you or I might choose different values or manners to achieve them doesn't mean his should be regarded as stupid.

He chose to fight back and I'm glad he did.
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Old September 12, 2007, 09:53 AM   #168
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Justme ~

And about the article I posted above? Was that "nonsense" and "BS" too? The homeowner was definitely going to die. He went for the disarm. He got injured, but he didn't die.

Disarms are dangerous. If you go for one you might get killed. There are some situations, however, where if you don't go for one you will definitely get killed.

Maybe getting killed beats definitely getting killed, any day of the week.

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Old September 12, 2007, 10:08 AM   #169
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Pax,

I don't think there is anybody saying you can't learn good techniques or that a woman can never physically oppose a man. I, and others, simlpy believe that given the dedication the average person is going to put towards study and continued practice combined with the average lack of resolve in most of the "sheep like" populance that training time is better spent focused on observation, avoidance and evasion.

The isolated case of a lucky 74 year old man against a tire iron weilding thirty something does not establish the rule. Most citizens will loose that encounter.
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Old September 12, 2007, 11:23 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
I don't think there is anybody saying you can't learn good techniques or that a woman can never physically oppose a man.
From the post that started this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by divemedic
... a 120 pound unarmed woman versus a 180 pound armed man is going to have a bad day, especially if she thinks that she is going to learn to disarm him in a 2 day class.
From a post near the mid-point of this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
I think that young upper-middle class suburban woman have a totally misplaces sense of their own abilities. They have been brainwashed by the PC crowd to believe that they are up to any challenge, apparantly including believing that they could disarm a criminal if they just had a bit of training.
Might want to speak just for yourself, not for others you think are on your side of this multi-sided argument.

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Old September 12, 2007, 12:36 PM   #171
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It is usually best to assume any argument put forward in a internet discussion is not an absolute unless it is explicitly stated as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by divemedic
... a 120 pound unarmed woman versus a 180 pound armed man is going to GENERALLY have a bad day, especially if she thinks that she is going to learn to disarm him in a 2 day class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
I think that THE MAJORITY OFyoung upper-middle class suburban woman have a totally misplaces sense of their own abilities. They have been brainwashed by the PC crowd to believe that they are up to any challenge, apparantly including believing that they could disarm a criminal if they just had a bit of training.
Added by Musketeer!

I always try to make a point of qualifying my statements. I am an engineer and heavily involved in sales for a manufacturing company. For that reason I have to qualify statements and avoid unintentional absolutes. After years of head-butting though I have come to realize the vast majority of people out there do not qualify their statements as not absolute even though they really think of them as not absolute. The result is a horrible amount of missunderstanding and finger pointing. Before calling BS on someone and starting the war that is to follow I either assume the statement is not meant as absolute or ask for clarification on the point. When one attacks another's position, even if it was poorly stated as an unintentional absolute, human hubris kicks in and people doggedly stick to their position. Only when the statement is positively reinforced as absolute do I accept it as such. "We gaurentee delivery of product starting Oct 11 leaving our facility" for example.
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Old September 12, 2007, 12:54 PM   #172
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Is there any empirical evidence that:

1. Such courses make women overconfident
2. That such courses have led to more bad outcomes than positive one in incidents.

If not, I regard the speculation as more of a projective personality test about attitudes towards young women.

A look at the real literature on the issue demonstrates success in interactions and increased self-confidence. There is no evidence of overconfidence and excessive risk taking.
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Old September 12, 2007, 01:42 PM   #173
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Meyer,

Is there any "empirical evidence" supporting your view? I'm not talking about the anecdotes, hype, and general wishful thinking being advanced here. What is the "real literature," how were these studies conducted, and who did them? Did they look at any failures or simply selected success stories? What were the sample sizes and how were the populations selected? I'm fascinated by the possibility that there are detailed studies showing that two-day classes to young women who admitted to being unmotivated to go on their own have produced such unmitigated success.
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Old September 12, 2007, 02:45 PM   #174
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HP - go to the scholarly data bases in the criminological literature. Go to the meetings of the American Society for Criminology, etc. I've looked at these searching on self-defense training, victimology, women, and the intersection. I find NO studies that report over-confidence leading to risk taking from self-defense courses and/or more negative outcomes from women who took such courses as compared to not - when they were attacked.

If you want to search the literature to find contrary evidence - go right ahead. Head for the local library or the databases on the web.

The amazing analogy is that the antiwomen training folk sound remarkably like the antigunners who know that CCW will lead to blood in the streets.

Hasn't been found.

With all the studies on victimology, we would see a trend for risk to women. The studies on self-defense report positive results.

Bah - getting cranky in my old age. I see nothing in this thread but misogyny.
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Old September 12, 2007, 10:37 PM   #175
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So, you can't name even one such study that supports your claims or answer even basic questions about methodology?
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