Best autoloading shotgun?

BlueOrbit · May 12, 2001, 08:41 PM

I am in the market for a good autoloader in 12-gauge.

What is the best, most reliable autoloader, which can handle any load (including light loads and slugs) without any problems?

I would be using it for trap, target practice and possibly home defence.

Benelli, Remington 11-87 are currently being considered. I also heard good things about a Russian Baikal MP153 autoloader.

Thanks for any input,

:-)

shooter22 · May 12, 2001, 11:02 PM

Remington 11-87 Upland Special 2 3/4" or 3" shells and very easy recoil for a 12 gauge.

shooter22

Captain Bligh · May 12, 2001, 11:46 PM

The best autoloading shotgun is the Browning A-5. Too darned bad the morons stopped making it. Biased? Who me?

RJ

PJR · May 13, 2001, 09:37 AM

The Beretta 391 and it's predecesssor the 390 are the guns with the best reputation for handling a wide range of shells. My 390 shoots everything from light one ounce loads all the way through to the heavy turkey and slug loads.

The only drawback with the 390 is home defense. It is limited to three shells only.

If HD is the issue, the Remington 11-87 can with some minor modifications take an extended magazine and be fitted with a 21" rifle sighted barrel.

The Benellis are robust guns but the ones I've used tended not to like lighter loads and the mechanism doesn't reduce the recoil like the gas guns.

As for the Baikal, there aren't many of them around and I would stay with the proven designs.

huntsman · May 13, 2001, 10:03 AM

The best autoloader was last made 40 odd years ago,The Winchester MD50.Not the commercial success's that Remington or browning had, but a high quality very soft recoiling 3 shot autoloader.Like all great guns it cost too much to manufacture so it was dropped for a cheaper model.

Kernel · May 13, 2001, 12:36 PM

IMO the Benelli Super90 is unconditionally the best semi auto shotgun in the world... period. It uses a unique inerta recoil system that is very simple, robust, and extremely reliable. I've got two Super90s - a 12ga M1 Field and a 20ga Montefeltro, and they've both been great hunting guns. I use the M1 Field for turkey and deer slugs and the Montefeltro for upland birds.

Regarding light loads - don't worry. It's an "Urban Legend" that Benellis aren't reliable with light loads. I've shot cases of light 7/8 oz target loads in my 12ga, in fact more light loads than anything else, and have never had a problem. I've even tried to make it miss-cycle by holding in limply and not against my shoulder and it always functioned 100%.

A lot of shooters like the Beretta AL391, it's a nice shotgun too. It runs about 3/4 to 1/2 pound heavier than a Benelli and it's gas operated. The combination of the weight and the lower muzzle velocity due to the gas system makes it softer to shoot.

Proving that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Beretta even makes two Benelli copies, the 1200FP & ES100, that both use Benelli's patented inertia recoil system. The fact that Beretta bought Benelli 2 or 3 years ago simplifies the licensing agreement. -- Kernel

JB in SC · May 13, 2001, 01:17 PM

you won't go back. Not as soft shooting as some of the others, but very reliable. A joy to clean and disassemble, the thing literally falls apart. The M1 is a nice gun, I noticed they're making a 20 gauge version (M1) this year with a synthetic stock. The Super Black Eagle is very nice but a little expensive for many folks.

Steve61 · May 13, 2001, 01:46 PM

Kernel:

Your Super 90 must be one of the good ones, but mine would not handle light loads or function while "limp wristing". My M1 Super 90 would regularly malfunction with 1 1/8 oz. field loads even when properly shouldered. Limp wristing the gun would cause 100% malfunctions. I could even get it to malfunction full house buckshot when severely limp wristing it.

I had recently purchased a Mossberg Jungle Gun and shot them side by side. The reliability from the Mossberg was just incredible when compared to the Benelli. That experience plus the testimony of many others in regard to light load reliability made me sell the Benelli and keep the Mossberg.

This is just my experience, YMMV.

Steve

Kernel · May 13, 2001, 11:20 PM

hmmm....

A Benelli topped by a Mossberg on reliability! That's one I've never heard before. Usually it's just the opposite. The quality and function problems with Mossberg semi auto shotguns are legion. Mossberg doesn't even catalog a semi auto shotgun anymore because the near 100% warrantee return rate was causing more trouble than it was worth.

Benellis would not have the high degree of acceptance they do with law enforcement and the military if they had systemic functioning problems, just the opposite - it's because they are so reliable that they are nearly universally acclaimed as the world's best semi auto shotgun by men you put their life on the line every day. I don't doubt your post but I'd guess there was something whacky with yours Steve. Dunno what else it could be.

I mean I seriously tried to make my M1 malfunction with light loads. Like violently jerking it backwards while shooting - to reduce the inertia effect even more. Still functioned 100%. The only thing "special" I did was lightly lube the locking lugs and bolt cam with a quality synthetic gun grease every time I did a detail clean, maybe every 400 to 500 rounds. -- Kernel

Dave McC · May 14, 2001, 07:16 AM

Not a big auto fan, but....

If I were getting an auto(and stranger thngs have happened) I'd get either a used 1100 Rem or a Pizza gun. The Beretta 390 and 391s have garnered a very good rep for reliability and durability. According to the gurus over on Shotgun Report, an 1100 that has not had any new parts will wear out in about 35,000 rounds. The Berettas last well past that.

The Pizza guns also come with enough stock shims and spacers to give a decent fit to anyone bigger than Tinker Bell, and smaller than Dennis Rodman.

Steve61 · May 14, 2001, 10:23 AM

Kernel:

Like I said before, you must have one of the good ones. Or, I just have one of the few bad ones. And, it is not just mine, here are several posts I found in just a few minutes of searching that also talk about the problem.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=11569
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10141
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10376
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10748
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=65218

I really wish mine was more reliable with light loads, because I really liked the way it handled. I do see that Benelli has switched to gas operation for the new military M4 shotgun. When it finally becomes available I will probably give that one a try.

Ah, the continuing quest for the ultimate shotgun.

Steve

Kernel · May 14, 2001, 11:32 AM

Steve, Thanks for the list of post. I didn't have time to read them all but the first few I did just confirmed my position on the reliability of Benellis. It seems some people do have difficulties after doing some questionable modifications -- like an over torqued side saddle mount which caused the receiver to flex and interfered with the action of the bolt ... stuff like that. The posts all read about the same: "My Benelli was 100% until I added these half a dozen Nija Warrior aftermarket do-hickys...."

My Benellis are 100% stock. I use them for hunting which is one of Benellis strong suites. The inertia recoil system works well in subzero temperatures when gas guns tend to be stiff, balky, and jam prone. After sitting in a snowbank all day waiting for Bambi to walk by it's nice to have a chance at a quick follow-up shot on Bambi's mother too (in case you've got two tags).

Plus Benellis are about the lightest repeating shot gun made, if not the lightest, which is nice when your're walking around all day. Duck hunters like Benellis because they will function after being fully submerged in water for long periods of time (like at the bottom of a duck boat). Gas guns are iffy because their tiny internal passages become clogged with water and muck. -- Kernel

cuerno de chivo · May 14, 2001, 11:33 AM

What's the most reliable gas gun? The least maintenance sensitive?

Oleg Volk · May 14, 2001, 11:42 AM

Looking at the internals, Franchi 612 (and, I sespect, Beretta 391) seem like the best bet. The gas system feeds off two vents and the stainless (chromed?) pistols look similar to Garand "self-scraping" rod.

In my experience, 11-87 worked far more reliably than Benellis and had less kick, simpler manual of arms...but also heavier and that reliability may go away after 500 rounds when the gun gets dirty.

Kobra · May 14, 2001, 03:22 PM

I have a Benelli SBE and a A-5 16 Ga. Both are flawlessly reliable but the Benelli isn't as pretty so it leaves the gun cabinet more. Pretty guns are nice in the cabinet but not in the field.

Spectre · May 17, 2001, 10:39 PM

Ugly, but AK reliable:
Saiga-12.

224Man · May 18, 2001, 12:07 AM

One of the top shotty 'smiths (I think Hans Vang) is said to really like the Mossberg Jungle Gun. It has an excellent reputation at a much lower price than the Benelli. However, the Reminton 1187 is the gun Scatttergun Technologies uses as their base which I think is telling.
Ya'll stay safe.

Rottweiler · May 18, 2001, 07:01 AM

I agree with Kernel. My Super 90 eats everything I feed it.2.75" 7/8 oz skeet loads to 3" 1 7/8 oz turkey blaster loads. Gotta admit though the skeet loads are MUCH more pleasureable to shoot the turkey blasters.

banjobart · May 18, 2001, 07:32 PM

Remington 1100.

VictorLouis · May 18, 2001, 08:52 PM

"The quality and function problems with Mossberg semi auto shotguns are legion."

I'm sure glad that my Jungle Gun wasn't familiar with those anecdotes.

As to their sporting version of the 9200, THAT may be another matter entirely.

Lee M. · May 20, 2001, 04:40 PM

I love the Browning A-5. Great gun. Too bad they're not made anymore. This was one slick gun. You couldn't ask for better recoil than this gun. If I come across one, it's going to be mine. I've shot my uncle's A-5 several times and it is always a pleasure to shoot.

Nightcrawler · May 20, 2001, 04:48 PM

The latest Mossy catalog features not one semiauto, yet I saw plenty of Mossberg autoloaders in an in-store speical order catalog.

What's the deal?

hksigwalther · May 20, 2001, 09:56 PM

Have both Benellis and an 11-87. If you are very sensitive to heavy recoil loads, go with the 11-87. I have the Special Purpose with 28" or 30" barrel (It's at my parents house at the moment so I'm not absolutely sure of the length). It is not problem at all (for me) shooting 20 or 30 slugs one after the other. Shooting that many through a much lighter 18" bbl Benelli would knock me senseless.

Otherwise, I'd go with the Benelli. If you think you might shoot extremely light loads, go with an M3 and pump them out if the don't cycle semiauto.

hagar · May 22, 2001, 11:14 PM

I like my Mossberg 9200 in Realtree camo. It cycles faster than any other shotgun I have fired, and the only malfunctions I had with it is with the pos Russian metal case ammo. They also jammed my Beretta A302. If you want one, get them quick, Mossberg discontinued them. It is similar to the jungle gun I believe, but for "sporting use".

Nimrod · May 27, 2001, 07:57 PM

The discontinued (sad, sad, sad day) Browning A-5 Light was a very reliable shotgun and well made.

The Bennelli shotguns are first rate. I have shot light (1-1/8 oz.) loads in my Super Black Eagle with no problems.

May 13, 2001, 10:03 AM	#5
huntsman Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2000 Location: ohio Posts: 121	Best autoloader The best autoloader was last made 40 odd years ago,The Winchester MD50.Not the commercial success's that Remington or browning had, but a high quality very soft recoiling 3 shot autoloader.Like all great guns it cost too much to manufacture so it was dropped for a cheaper model.

May 13, 2001, 01:17 PM	#7
JB in SC Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2000 Location: Upstate Posts: 375	Once you've tried the Benelli... you won't go back. Not as soft shooting as some of the others, but very reliable. A joy to clean and disassemble, the thing literally falls apart. The M1 is a nice gun, I noticed they're making a 20 gauge version (M1) this year with a synthetic stock. The Super Black Eagle is very nice but a little expensive for many folks.

May 18, 2001, 12:07 AM	#17
224Man Member Join Date: March 24, 2001 Location: Western U.S. Posts: 51	One of the top shotty 'smiths (I think Hans Vang) is said to really like the Mossberg Jungle Gun. It has an excellent reputation at a much lower price than the Benelli. However, the Reminton 1187 is the gun Scatttergun Technologies uses as their base which I think is telling. Ya'll stay safe. __________________ 224Man(actual diameter of 5.56mm[.223]) Bushmaster and H&K secured posting

May 18, 2001, 08:52 PM	#20
VictorLouis Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,302	Kernel said: "The quality and function problems with Mossberg semi auto shotguns are legion." I'm sure glad that my Jungle Gun wasn't familiar with those anecdotes. As to their sporting version of the 9200, THAT may be another matter entirely.

May 20, 2001, 04:48 PM	#22
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Mossberg Jungle Gun? The latest Mossy catalog features not one semiauto, yet I saw plenty of Mossberg autoloaders in an in-store speical order catalog. What's the deal?

May 12, 2001, 08:41 PM	#1
BlueOrbit Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 13	I am in the market for a good autoloader in 12-gauge. What is the best, most reliable autoloader, which can handle any load (including light loads and slugs) without any problems? I would be using it for trap, target practice and possibly home defence. Benelli, Remington 11-87 are currently being considered. I also heard good things about a Russian Baikal MP153 autoloader. Thanks for any input, :-)

May 12, 2001, 11:02 PM	#2
shooter22 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2001 Posts: 174	Remington 11-87 Upland Special 2 3/4" or 3" shells and very easy recoil for a 12 gauge. shooter22

May 12, 2001, 11:46 PM	#3
Captain Bligh Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2000 Posts: 453	The best autoloading shotgun is the Browning A-5. Too darned bad the morons stopped making it. Biased? Who me? RJ

May 13, 2001, 09:37 AM	#4
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	The Beretta 391 and it's predecesssor the 390 are the guns with the best reputation for handling a wide range of shells. My 390 shoots everything from light one ounce loads all the way through to the heavy turkey and slug loads. The only drawback with the 390 is home defense. It is limited to three shells only. If HD is the issue, the Remington 11-87 can with some minor modifications take an extended magazine and be fitted with a 21" rifle sighted barrel. The Benellis are robust guns but the ones I've used tended not to like lighter loads and the mechanism doesn't reduce the recoil like the gas guns. As for the Baikal, there aren't many of them around and I would stay with the proven designs.

May 13, 2001, 12:36 PM	#6
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	IMO the Benelli Super90 is unconditionally the best semi auto shotgun in the world... period. It uses a unique inerta recoil system that is very simple, robust, and extremely reliable. I've got two Super90s - a 12ga M1 Field and a 20ga Montefeltro, and they've both been great hunting guns. I use the M1 Field for turkey and deer slugs and the Montefeltro for upland birds. Regarding light loads - don't worry. It's an "Urban Legend" that Benellis aren't reliable with light loads. I've shot cases of light 7/8 oz target loads in my 12ga, in fact more light loads than anything else, and have never had a problem. I've even tried to make it miss-cycle by holding in limply and not against my shoulder and it always functioned 100%. A lot of shooters like the Beretta AL391, it's a nice shotgun too. It runs about 3/4 to 1/2 pound heavier than a Benelli and it's gas operated. The combination of the weight and the lower muzzle velocity due to the gas system makes it softer to shoot. Proving that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" Beretta even makes two Benelli copies, the 1200FP & ES100, that both use Benelli's patented inertia recoil system. The fact that Beretta bought Benelli 2 or 3 years ago simplifies the licensing agreement. -- Kernel

May 13, 2001, 01:46 PM	#8
Steve61 Junior Member Join Date: April 27, 2001 Posts: 4	Kernel: Your Super 90 must be one of the good ones, but mine would not handle light loads or function while "limp wristing". My M1 Super 90 would regularly malfunction with 1 1/8 oz. field loads even when properly shouldered. Limp wristing the gun would cause 100% malfunctions. I could even get it to malfunction full house buckshot when severely limp wristing it. I had recently purchased a Mossberg Jungle Gun and shot them side by side. The reliability from the Mossberg was just incredible when compared to the Benelli. That experience plus the testimony of many others in regard to light load reliability made me sell the Benelli and keep the Mossberg. This is just my experience, YMMV. Steve

May 13, 2001, 11:20 PM	#9
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	hmmm.... A Benelli topped by a Mossberg on reliability! That's one I've never heard before. Usually it's just the opposite. The quality and function problems with Mossberg semi auto shotguns are legion. Mossberg doesn't even catalog a semi auto shotgun anymore because the near 100% warrantee return rate was causing more trouble than it was worth. Benellis would not have the high degree of acceptance they do with law enforcement and the military if they had systemic functioning problems, just the opposite - it's because they are so reliable that they are nearly universally acclaimed as the world's best semi auto shotgun by men you put their life on the line every day. I don't doubt your post but I'd guess there was something whacky with yours Steve. Dunno what else it could be. I mean I seriously tried to make my M1 malfunction with light loads. Like violently jerking it backwards while shooting - to reduce the inertia effect even more. Still functioned 100%. The only thing "special" I did was lightly lube the locking lugs and bolt cam with a quality synthetic gun grease every time I did a detail clean, maybe every 400 to 500 rounds. -- Kernel

May 14, 2001, 07:16 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Not a big auto fan, but.... If I were getting an auto(and stranger thngs have happened) I'd get either a used 1100 Rem or a Pizza gun. The Beretta 390 and 391s have garnered a very good rep for reliability and durability. According to the gurus over on Shotgun Report, an 1100 that has not had any new parts will wear out in about 35,000 rounds. The Berettas last well past that. The Pizza guns also come with enough stock shims and spacers to give a decent fit to anyone bigger than Tinker Bell, and smaller than Dennis Rodman.

May 14, 2001, 10:23 AM	#11
Steve61 Junior Member Join Date: April 27, 2001 Posts: 4	Kernel: Like I said before, you must have one of the good ones. Or, I just have one of the few bad ones. And, it is not just mine, here are several posts I found in just a few minutes of searching that also talk about the problem. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=11569 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10141 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10376 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=10748 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=65218 I really wish mine was more reliable with light loads, because I really liked the way it handled. I do see that Benelli has switched to gas operation for the new military M4 shotgun. When it finally becomes available I will probably give that one a try. Ah, the continuing quest for the ultimate shotgun. Steve

May 14, 2001, 11:32 AM	#12
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	Steve, Thanks for the list of post. I didn't have time to read them all but the first few I did just confirmed my position on the reliability of Benellis. It seems some people do have difficulties after doing some questionable modifications -- like an over torqued side saddle mount which caused the receiver to flex and interfered with the action of the bolt ... stuff like that. The posts all read about the same: "My Benelli was 100% until I added these half a dozen Nija Warrior aftermarket do-hickys...." My Benellis are 100% stock. I use them for hunting which is one of Benellis strong suites. The inertia recoil system works well in subzero temperatures when gas guns tend to be stiff, balky, and jam prone. After sitting in a snowbank all day waiting for Bambi to walk by it's nice to have a chance at a quick follow-up shot on Bambi's mother too (in case you've got two tags). Plus Benellis are about the lightest repeating shot gun made, if not the lightest, which is nice when your're walking around all day. Duck hunters like Benellis because they will function after being fully submerged in water for long periods of time (like at the bottom of a duck boat). Gas guns are iffy because their tiny internal passages become clogged with water and muck. -- Kernel

May 14, 2001, 11:33 AM	#13
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	What's the most reliable gas gun? The least maintenance sensitive?

May 14, 2001, 11:42 AM	#14
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Looking at the internals, Franchi 612 (and, I sespect, Beretta 391) seem like the best bet. The gas system feeds off two vents and the stainless (chromed?) pistols look similar to Garand "self-scraping" rod. In my experience, 11-87 worked far more reliably than Benellis and had less kick, simpler manual of arms...but also heavier and that reliability may go away after 500 rounds when the gun gets dirty.

May 14, 2001, 03:22 PM	#15
Kobra Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2001 Location: LA - KY (Cajun Hillbilly) Posts: 338	I have a Benelli SBE and a A-5 16 Ga. Both are flawlessly reliable but the Benelli isn't as pretty so it leaves the gun cabinet more. Pretty guns are nice in the cabinet but not in the field.

May 17, 2001, 10:39 PM	#16
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Ugly, but AK reliable: Saiga-12.

May 18, 2001, 07:01 AM	#18
Rottweiler Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2001 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 391	I agree with Kernel. My Super 90 eats everything I feed it.2.75" 7/8 oz skeet loads to 3" 1 7/8 oz turkey blaster loads. Gotta admit though the skeet loads are MUCH more pleasureable to shoot the turkey blasters.

May 18, 2001, 07:32 PM	#19
banjobart Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 188	Remington 1100.

May 20, 2001, 04:40 PM	#21
Lee M. Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2001 Location: Bluegrass State Posts: 101	I love the Browning A-5. Great gun. Too bad they're not made anymore. This was one slick gun. You couldn't ask for better recoil than this gun. If I come across one, it's going to be mine. I've shot my uncle's A-5 several times and it is always a pleasure to shoot.

May 20, 2001, 09:56 PM	#23
hksigwalther Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1998 Location: NE OH, USA Posts: 3,198	Have both Benellis and an 11-87. If you are very sensitive to heavy recoil loads, go with the 11-87. I have the Special Purpose with 28" or 30" barrel (It's at my parents house at the moment so I'm not absolutely sure of the length). It is not problem at all (for me) shooting 20 or 30 slugs one after the other. Shooting that many through a much lighter 18" bbl Benelli would knock me senseless. Otherwise, I'd go with the Benelli. If you think you might shoot extremely light loads, go with an M3 and pump them out if the don't cycle semiauto. __________________ - Ron V.

May 22, 2001, 11:14 PM	#24
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	I like my Mossberg 9200 in Realtree camo. It cycles faster than any other shotgun I have fired, and the only malfunctions I had with it is with the pos Russian metal case ammo. They also jammed my Beretta A302. If you want one, get them quick, Mossberg discontinued them. It is similar to the jungle gun I believe, but for "sporting use".

May 27, 2001, 07:57 PM	#25
Nimrod Member Join Date: February 18, 2001 Posts: 78	The discontinued (sad, sad, sad day) Browning A-5 Light was a very reliable shotgun and well made. The Bennelli shotguns are first rate. I have shot light (1-1/8 oz.) loads in my Super Black Eagle with no problems.