How Can This Be? Leading

VTR996 · February 4, 2002, 03:12 PM

I shoot .45colt & .45acp, .38spl, .357 mostly for targets with hardcast lead. After shooting a couple hundred rounds then comes the cleaning sesion, I find lead or lube in barell. I use less than max reloads, usually round 7-800 fps and according to the books I shouldn't be seeing this. Is it the type of bullets? I use bull-x brand and some made by Williams from Moore OK. Is there something I'm doing wrong? What can I try to keep leading to a minimum?

RickS · February 4, 2002, 03:21 PM

Make sure you use enough crip. Sometimes not enough will cause leading.

labgrade · February 4, 2002, 04:55 PM

I agree that you shouldn't be seeing "any" leading at these velocities - even with dead-soft swagged bullets.

No matter what you shoot (FMJ or lead), you will get some deposits of bullets material in your barrel. To what extent are you seeing "leading?" & is it difficult to clean out in that it's causing "a problem?"

Curious, RickS, how would a crimp affect leading?

VTR996 · February 4, 2002, 05:50 PM

I use a lee Factory Crimp on the .45acp and roll crimp the rest with the seater/crimp tool.

It is mostly in the first 2" of the barrel in both guns,a charles daly and a convertible blackhawk in .45 and blackhawk in .357. I have to scrub the living pea soup out of to get it clean. I use a bore snake first then wind up useing some bore cleaner and a brush and scrub away, sometimes nearly 45min.

JohnK · February 4, 2002, 06:04 PM

Very hard cast bullets can lead at low velocities. At low velocities they don't seal the bore well and allow gas past the base causing a torch effect which causes leading.

Yes, it's counter intutitive, we generally think high speed = cause of leading, but with a very hard alloy too low a speed can also cause it. It took quite a while and I had to hear it from many sources before I belived it.

If those velocities are what you want for you I'd try a different brand of cast bullet and see if the problem goes away. I would also try using the same bullets at a little higher speed and see if that has any effect on the problem as well.

labgrade · February 4, 2002, 06:10 PM

Sumpin ain't right, VTR996.

I shoot cast (wheel weight hardness, except for a tad harder in the rifles) in .357 mag/.38 spl revolvers, 9mm (BHP & a Ruger), .308 Win/.30-06 (~1300-1500 fps) & a Contender wildcat (~1300 fps) & have never seen leading such as you describe. Used to as well in .44 mag/older 'Smiths.

Sure, shooting lead'll leave a bit of residue in the bore, but what a quick wipe with a brush/Hoppe's#9/patches doesn't take out, isn't enough to matter. Worse case = I figure it's a seal against corrosion.

Leaving a bit of a residue, BTW, is much different than "leading."

I could see, with a revolver, that perhaps you timing's off/alignment problem, or somesuch, but can't figure with a semi (that .45)

How's the bullets' lube look? Is it "soft" or like plastic? Sorry, zip experience with bull-x, etc. Still, any lube at your stated velocities should cover the bases ....

Perhaps you're just being "anal" about having a way squeaky-clean barrel? No flames - just curious.

Still would like to here from RickS about that crimp thing ... never heard that one, & again, just curious & know-how search ....

labgrade · February 4, 2002, 06:32 PM

JohnK brings up a point I'd never even considered.

I would assume (there ya go

) that a proper slugging of your bore/s would go a long way to preclude the problem. A "to-bore" fit, or a .001" oversized, may be all you need. Should seal it up.

& too, as John mention, pushin' 'em a tad faster may cause the bullets to "get swagged" more to fit the bore & eliminate the probs.

Would very much like to hear of your experiences & outcome, VTR996 ... will only help us all out on a mostly rarely seen problem .....

sricciardelli · February 4, 2002, 08:32 PM

Any time you rub a softer object against a harder object, some of the softer object will be rubbed off...

labgrade · February 4, 2002, 08:56 PM

No question, sricciardelli, & what many don't know, or will not believe, is that at that same time, an abrasion effect takes place to remove material from the harder material as well.

Had a bud (sadly, he is no longer with us) who did gaging aspects for the militry's 25mm bullet ..... an aluminum "nose-cone" continually run over a hardened/gage-quality steel-piece.

That gage gradually wore out due to the constant wearing of "mere" aluminum over its face. Needed to be replaced "quite often" & much more so often than anyone initially thought. An eye-opener.

Matter of fact - aluminum oxide is one of THE prime industrial abrasives available on the market. As soon as aluminum contacts the air (oxygen, to be presise), it forms its oxide as a protectorant - one of aluminum's fave property .... a way abrasive. Think about it.

If nothing else, go visit the Grand Canyon. Water wore away that depth. In time, anything will wear away anything else more "hard."

All it takes is time, with use.

Any object in contact with another, will deposit AND compile to wear.

May not matter one whit in our lifetime, but to say "it doesn't" is only a matter of perspective - & most likely wrong.

Khornet · February 5, 2002, 08:06 AM

If your bore is a little rough, leading would be increased. You could try one of those lead-removal cloths, used as a patch to rub back&forth. It removes lead easily without abrasion.

I suppose that if you had some leading and did not get it all out each time, the remaining lead would pick up more lead each firing, so that it would seem you had constant leading when actually you are just maintaining the same amount.

sricciardelli · February 5, 2002, 10:22 AM

Labgrade...

Aluminum oxide and aluminum are not the same material...

Soft coal and a diamond are both carbon...but they are not the same either.

Beach sand and tempered glass are both silicates...but they are not the same.

Kevlar and baggies are both "plastic", but they are not the same.

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2002, 11:42 AM

What Labgrade is correctly saying is that aluminum exposed to air oxidizes VERY quickly to form a surface layer of Al2O3, Aluminum Oxide.

It has a hardness of 9 on the Mohs scale, diamond has a Mohs hardness of 10. Granted, the difference in absolute hardness between the two is about 300%, but it's still a good indication of how relatively soft aluminum oxidizes into a pretty abrasive chemical.

Pure aluminum has a Mohs hardness of 2.75, alloyed aluminum, of the kind that we normally see, is probably around 4 to 5.

Manufacturers who work with aluminum products know that there is going to be considerable wear attributed to aluminum oxide on the metal.

WESHOOT2 · February 5, 2002, 11:44 AM

Do monkeys know that?

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2002, 11:47 AM

Only monkeys with advanced degrees.

RickS · February 5, 2002, 12:30 PM

I don't know why criming seems to help with the leading, but i shoot lead through a Glock and i had a leading problem before i began using a Lee FCD. Maybe seals off gases better, not sure, it just helped me.

Norm Lee · February 5, 2002, 01:13 PM

Hey VTR:

I am sorry to have to tell you this, but if you are already using the LEE FCD and are still experiencing leading, there's no hope.

Seriously, though, you will get leading for lots of reasons, but primarily from either pushing soft lead too fast, or from not pushing the hard cast stuff hard enough. Bummer, eh? Sounds like the latter is likely your problem. Notionally, the bullet doesn't upset sufficiently to fill and seal the bore and the hot gasses just solder that stuff onto your bbl. I mostly don't worry about some lead in the bbl anymore, but then I've reached an age where I've discovered there are things I'd rather do than clean guns

But when I have to, I run a brush wet with #9 (or suitable substitute) through the bore and follow with a patch or 2 to dry it out. Then I reach for an old bronze brush around which I wrap a patch of Chore Boy or other copper wool (no soap). A couple of strokes takes the lead right out. This was a chore which could take me more than an hour per gun before someone was kind enough to pass on this tip.

HTH

Norm

C.R.Sam · February 6, 2002, 03:24 AM

Crimping thought. If the crimp is too light, gasses could have a chance to get around the base of the bullet before it is fully sweged into the bore. Hence, leading.

With proper lube, soft cast bullets should handle around 1400 fps before trying to solder themselves to the bore.

Revolvers commonly lead when the chamber mouth is smaller than the bore......but that has no bearing on the auto.

Maby.......if after you shoot, you clean the guns too well. A bit of lube in the barrel may keep the first bullet from starting the leading. In the barrel....NOT IN THE CHAMBER

Sam.....mumblin out loud.

February 4, 2002, 03:12 PM	#1
VTR996 Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2001 Location: OKLAHOMA Posts: 195	How Can This Be? Leading I shoot .45colt & .45acp, .38spl, .357 mostly for targets with hardcast lead. After shooting a couple hundred rounds then comes the cleaning sesion, I find lead or lube in barell. I use less than max reloads, usually round 7-800 fps and according to the books I shouldn't be seeing this. Is it the type of bullets? I use bull-x brand and some made by Williams from Moore OK. Is there something I'm doing wrong? What can I try to keep leading to a minimum?

February 4, 2002, 06:04 PM	#5
JohnK Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2001 Location: Duvall, Wa Posts: 552	Very hard cast bullets can lead at low velocities. At low velocities they don't seal the bore well and allow gas past the base causing a torch effect which causes leading. Yes, it's counter intutitive, we generally think high speed = cause of leading, but with a very hard alloy too low a speed can also cause it. It took quite a while and I had to hear it from many sources before I belived it. If those velocities are what you want for you I'd try a different brand of cast bullet and see if the problem goes away. I would also try using the same bullets at a little higher speed and see if that has any effect on the problem as well. __________________ John http://www.handloads.com Molan Labe!

February 4, 2002, 08:32 PM	#8
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Any time you rub a softer object against a harder object, some of the softer object will be rubbed off... __________________ http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

February 5, 2002, 08:06 AM	#10
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	Leading If your bore is a little rough, leading would be increased. You could try one of those lead-removal cloths, used as a patch to rub back&forth. It removes lead easily without abrasion. I suppose that if you had some leading and did not get it all out each time, the remaining lead would pick up more lead each firing, so that it would seem you had constant leading when actually you are just maintaining the same amount. __________________ The M1 does MY talking!

February 5, 2002, 10:22 AM	#11
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	Labgrade... Aluminum oxide and aluminum are not the same material... Soft coal and a diamond are both carbon...but they are not the same either. Beach sand and tempered glass are both silicates...but they are not the same. Kevlar and baggies are both "plastic", but they are not the same. __________________ http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

February 4, 2002, 03:21 PM	#2
RickS Junior Member Join Date: June 22, 2001 Location: Yadkinville NC Posts: 4	Make sure you use enough crip. Sometimes not enough will cause leading.

February 4, 2002, 04:55 PM	#3
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I agree that you shouldn't be seeing "any" leading at these velocities - even with dead-soft swagged bullets. No matter what you shoot (FMJ or lead), you will get some deposits of bullets material in your barrel. To what extent are you seeing "leading?" & is it difficult to clean out in that it's causing "a problem?" Curious, RickS, how would a crimp affect leading?

February 4, 2002, 05:50 PM	#4
VTR996 Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2001 Location: OKLAHOMA Posts: 195	I use a lee Factory Crimp on the .45acp and roll crimp the rest with the seater/crimp tool. It is mostly in the first 2" of the barrel in both guns,a charles daly and a convertible blackhawk in .45 and blackhawk in .357. I have to scrub the living pea soup out of to get it clean. I use a bore snake first then wind up useing some bore cleaner and a brush and scrub away, sometimes nearly 45min.

February 4, 2002, 06:10 PM	#6
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Sumpin ain't right, VTR996. I shoot cast (wheel weight hardness, except for a tad harder in the rifles) in .357 mag/.38 spl revolvers, 9mm (BHP & a Ruger), .308 Win/.30-06 (~1300-1500 fps) & a Contender wildcat (~1300 fps) & have never seen leading such as you describe. Used to as well in .44 mag/older 'Smiths. Sure, shooting lead'll leave a bit of residue in the bore, but what a quick wipe with a brush/Hoppe's#9/patches doesn't take out, isn't enough to matter. Worse case = I figure it's a seal against corrosion. Leaving a bit of a residue, BTW, is much different than "leading." I could see, with a revolver, that perhaps you timing's off/alignment problem, or somesuch, but can't figure with a semi (that .45) How's the bullets' lube look? Is it "soft" or like plastic? Sorry, zip experience with bull-x, etc. Still, any lube at your stated velocities should cover the bases .... Perhaps you're just being "anal" about having a way squeaky-clean barrel? No flames - just curious. Still would like to here from RickS about that crimp thing ... never heard that one, & again, just curious & know-how search ....

February 4, 2002, 06:32 PM	#7
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	JohnK brings up a point I'd never even considered. I would assume (there ya go ) that a proper slugging of your bore/s would go a long way to preclude the problem. A "to-bore" fit, or a .001" oversized, may be all you need. Should seal it up. & too, as John mention, pushin' 'em a tad faster may cause the bullets to "get swagged" more to fit the bore & eliminate the probs. Would very much like to hear of your experiences & outcome, VTR996 ... will only help us all out on a mostly rarely seen problem .....

February 4, 2002, 08:56 PM	#9
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	No question, sricciardelli, & what many don't know, or will not believe, is that at that same time, an abrasion effect takes place to remove material from the harder material as well. Had a bud (sadly, he is no longer with us) who did gaging aspects for the militry's 25mm bullet ..... an aluminum "nose-cone" continually run over a hardened/gage-quality steel-piece. That gage gradually wore out due to the constant wearing of "mere" aluminum over its face. Needed to be replaced "quite often" & much more so often than anyone initially thought. An eye-opener. Matter of fact - aluminum oxide is one of THE prime industrial abrasives available on the market. As soon as aluminum contacts the air (oxygen, to be presise), it forms its oxide as a protectorant - one of aluminum's fave property .... a way abrasive. Think about it. If nothing else, go visit the Grand Canyon. Water wore away that depth. In time, anything will wear away anything else more "hard." All it takes is time, with use. Any object in contact with another, will deposit AND compile to wear. May not matter one whit in our lifetime, but to say "it doesn't" is only a matter of perspective - & most likely wrong.

February 5, 2002, 11:42 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	What Labgrade is correctly saying is that aluminum exposed to air oxidizes VERY quickly to form a surface layer of Al2O3, Aluminum Oxide. It has a hardness of 9 on the Mohs scale, diamond has a Mohs hardness of 10. Granted, the difference in absolute hardness between the two is about 300%, but it's still a good indication of how relatively soft aluminum oxidizes into a pretty abrasive chemical. Pure aluminum has a Mohs hardness of 2.75, alloyed aluminum, of the kind that we normally see, is probably around 4 to 5. Manufacturers who work with aluminum products know that there is going to be considerable wear attributed to aluminum oxide on the metal. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2002, 11:44 AM	#13
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Do monkeys know that?

February 5, 2002, 11:47 AM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Only monkeys with advanced degrees. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2002, 12:30 PM	#15
RickS Junior Member Join Date: June 22, 2001 Location: Yadkinville NC Posts: 4	I don't know why criming seems to help with the leading, but i shoot lead through a Glock and i had a leading problem before i began using a Lee FCD. Maybe seals off gases better, not sure, it just helped me.

February 5, 2002, 01:13 PM	#16
Norm Lee Member Join Date: January 3, 2001 Location: Nassau Bay Posts: 81	leading Hey VTR: I am sorry to have to tell you this, but if you are already using the LEE FCD and are still experiencing leading, there's no hope. Seriously, though, you will get leading for lots of reasons, but primarily from either pushing soft lead too fast, or from not pushing the hard cast stuff hard enough. Bummer, eh? Sounds like the latter is likely your problem. Notionally, the bullet doesn't upset sufficiently to fill and seal the bore and the hot gasses just solder that stuff onto your bbl. I mostly don't worry about some lead in the bbl anymore, but then I've reached an age where I've discovered there are things I'd rather do than clean guns But when I have to, I run a brush wet with #9 (or suitable substitute) through the bore and follow with a patch or 2 to dry it out. Then I reach for an old bronze brush around which I wrap a patch of Chore Boy or other copper wool (no soap). A couple of strokes takes the lead right out. This was a chore which could take me more than an hour per gun before someone was kind enough to pass on this tip. HTH Norm

February 6, 2002, 03:24 AM	#17
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Crimping thought. If the crimp is too light, gasses could have a chance to get around the base of the bullet before it is fully sweged into the bore. Hence, leading. With proper lube, soft cast bullets should handle around 1400 fps before trying to solder themselves to the bore. Revolvers commonly lead when the chamber mouth is smaller than the bore......but that has no bearing on the auto. Maby.......if after you shoot, you clean the guns too well. A bit of lube in the barrel may keep the first bullet from starting the leading. In the barrel....NOT IN THE CHAMBER Sam.....mumblin out loud.