S&W J Frame limitations? - Page 2

michaelcj · June 23, 2015, 07:49 PM

Not a J frame, but I also have to qualify twice a year with the 2" model 10 that I sometimes carry [plain clothes] also out to 25 yards.

The youngsters do think I'm weird but still want to work with me.

cc-hangfire · June 24, 2015, 07:53 AM

Thanks folks for answering the OP's question AND making me feel a whole lot better about my own shooting ability - or lack thereof. I do ok with my full sized semiautos, pretty good with the compacts & subcompacts and 4" barrel revolvers I have.

But the two .38spl snubbies I recently picked up - S&W 642 and Charter Arms Undercover - have humbled me. Those small grips in my big hands, short sight radius, combined with the DA trigger pull do make these a challenge to shoot accurately. I have read for years that the snub nosed revolver is a gun for an expert shooter and now I understand why.

James K · June 26, 2015, 01:11 PM

So become an expert!

Jim

cc-hangfire · June 26, 2015, 01:17 PM

Jim,
Ha! I'm trying, I'm trying!! I'll be trying out some better grips on the S&W 642 tomorrow. And each range trip my shots are tightening up - still missing my supposed POA, but I'm scaring it with closer misses at least.

lee n. field · June 26, 2015, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Ha! I'm trying, I'm trying!! I'll be trying out some better grips on the S&W 642 tomorrow.

I started a thread recently that you might want to read over: The search for the perfect grip begins again. J-frame "combat" grip. I ended up with a (used) Uncle Mike's Combat Grip, that isn't quite perfect, but works as well as anything I've tried.

Grip preference is very individual. Hand shape, size, strength and control all vary widely. The stock S&W 642 grips I just don't care for.

Dragline45 · June 26, 2015, 01:41 PM

I carried a couple different J frames for around 3 years and practiced a whole bunch with them. I was pretty proficient with them as I learned to shoot on DA triggers anyway, but I realized I can shoot just about any semi-auto of comparable size just as good or better than the J frame. To be honest I don't feel comfortable using a J frame for anything more than achieving COM shots at close distance, my Shield 9mm which is of comparable size and carries just as easy not only holds 3-4 more rounds but is a whole lot more accurate in my hands.

dahermit · June 26, 2015, 04:31 PM

Quote:

I don't feel comfortable using a J frame for anything more than achieving COM shots at close distance...

Isn't that what a defensive concealable handgun for?

j102 · June 26, 2015, 05:24 PM

Small revolvers are not that easy to shoot and I agree that they are great for SD at close distances. With that said, I think with practice one can become good with them. I've seen people shoot acceptable groups at 10-15 yards distances.

dcludwig · June 26, 2015, 07:25 PM

Yep. Practice. Practice. Practice.

James K · June 26, 2015, 08:30 PM

In the years I carried and fired (a lot!) my square butt Model 36, I used it almost entirely in double action. I never used any aftermarket grips or special grips. I found that for best control, having the middle finger all the way up in the grip worked for me. IMHO, the idea that there is a need for some kind of grip filler just isn't true. People will object that the hand will be "bent" and that the index finger will not be parallel to the barrel. So? The gun is a revolver, not an auto pistol and it is best controlled if it is used the way it was made to be used. If filler grips or something like the Tyler filler is used, the grip is not tight enough for good control in recoil.

When I bought a 642, the factory (Hogue?) grip was the worst I have ever tried - no control and the recoil beat the heck out of my hand. I replaced them with the old type wood grips.

Jim

dcludwig · June 26, 2015, 09:38 PM

My 642 came as a package deal with CT laser grips, so I 've not fired one with factory grips. The CT grips are a bit larger help cushion it, but with an airweight J frame and firing +p ammo, it's going to beat you up a bit. When I broke it in at the range, I think I fired a couple hundred rounds through it and the next day - sore hand! But I love to pocket carry in for SD and if ever needed for that purpose it, I won't be worrying about a sore hand.

That does make it difficult to be really accurate at 25 yards, but with practice you will improve. As has been said, most people use it for SD purposes which would probably be at 7 yards or less and I think it would be very accurate at that range.

FrankenMauser · June 27, 2015, 12:39 AM

My 642 Ladysmith has the factory Rosewood grips.

They're uncomfortable and too small.

But... that's nice for concealed carry.

And... No other J-frame that I've fired with any other type of grip has been any more comfortable. Some (like Hogue) force an unnatural grip that just doesn't work for me.

Uncomfortable, but compact....

(Ignore what looks like "crud" caked in the sideplate parting line. It's just the typical case of clear-coat flaking off.)

dahermit · June 27, 2015, 04:58 AM

Quote:

the idea that there is a need for some kind of grip filler just isn't true. People will object that the hand will be "bent" and that the index finger will not be parallel to the barrel. So?

Try this experiment: Empty the gun and pull the trigger double-action a few times and note the trigger pull. Then slip your index finger of your left hand between the back of the trigger guard and your right hand (to act as a grip filler) and pull the trigger a few times again. Feel the difference in the felt trigger pull? That is why people use a filler like Tyler-T or grips that fill that area. The angle of the trigger pull effects the apparent weight of the double action pull.

David R · June 27, 2015, 05:32 AM

I shoot this a lot and carry it in an ankle holster or lately in a Bianchi 9R under my left arm.

Accuracy is what it can be. It took me 12 shots to kill 6 1/2 liter water bottles at 25 yards.

This was shot at the club indoor range of 34' using the laser only as the sight.
I liked the original rubber grip that came with it, but I had to have the CT Laser grips.

Loving this 637. Its a year or so old, had fired quite a few hundred rounds with zero problems. Most of them +P

David

shooter1911 · July 7, 2015, 08:57 PM

As indicated by my name, I shoot and carry 1911s of several sizes as often as possible, but when a small pocket gun is in order, these days it's a 340PD with either Speer 135gr +Ps or the same bullet in .357. This is a difficult JFrame to master as it only weighs 11.4 oz. I feel comfortable hitting a man sized target out to 15 yds consistently, because I practice from point blank to 15yds with a silhouette frequently. I don't attribute this skill to anything other than I have been carrying and shooting JFrames since the 60s with my first purchase being a Model 36, which I still own. That equates to about 50 years of messing with these guns. I learned over the years that a 2-3" JFrame is inherently accurate, but it takes a lot of practice to get good with these guns. By the way in 50 years I have never pulled the trigger when it didn't go bang. Just lucky I guess.

tallball · July 8, 2015, 06:02 AM

I can hit a paper plate every time at seven yards with my 2" 38. That is plenty good enough for its purpose, self defense. Like the man said, anything farther than that and chances are good that you will need an attorney.

It is interesting to see how well I can shoot it at 15 or 25 yards, but that is "just for fun". It is not the gun's intended purpose.

SaxonPig · July 8, 2015, 07:48 AM

But the TV detectives can hit a moving target a block away shooting one handed from the hip...

jdscholer · July 8, 2015, 08:06 AM

Quote:

But the TV detectives can hit a moving target a block away shooting one handed from the hip...

Inspector Erskine of the FBI was the all time best. Ahhh those were the days.

jd

Don P · July 8, 2015, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Snubs are awesome, but humbling to shoot for even the best pistol/auto shooters.

No doubt, snubby's require more practice and patience than other pistols or revolvers.

BINGO!!!!! Give the man a CIGAR

kristop64089 · July 10, 2015, 06:41 AM

I'm on my 5th J-frame (just scored a nice little 637 Monday), and I will say this; GRIPS, find one that you like,fits you, and lends to accuracy.
The factory Boot grip is ok, but does not lend to accuracy for me. I have a 3 finger grip now on the latest one, and it changes the behavior of the gun noticeably.
The biggest limitation to the gun is round capacity compared to all the available Semi-Autos available today.
I personally carry my J frames for SD(especially when on my motorcycles) because they are the most simple and reliable point and shoot weapon in my arsenal. Not to mention they are timeless design and aesthetically appealing.
It's a close in weapon. A game changer if you will. If you dont' "outkick your coverage" so to speak, you should be fine.-

pete2 · July 10, 2015, 11:27 AM

2' and 3" guns can be just as accurate as a 4" or 6" BUT they are much harder to shoot. In my younger day I had a 3" 36 that would do 2" groups at 25 yds. all day long off bags, off hand was another story.

j102 · July 11, 2015, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kristop64089

I'm on my 5th J-frame (just scored a nice little 637 Monday), and I will say this; GRIPS, find one that you like,fits you, and lends to accuracy.

The factory Boot grip is ok, but does not lend to accuracy for me. I have a 3 finger grip now on the latest one, and it changes the behavior of the gun noticeably.

The biggest limitation to the gun is round capacity compared to all the available Semi-Autos available today.

I personally carry my J frames for SD(especially when on my motorcycles) because they are the most simple and reliable point and shoot weapon in my arsenal. Not to mention they are timeless design and aesthetically appealing.

It's a close in weapon. A game changer if you will. If you dont' "outkick your coverage" so to speak, you should be fine.-

What grips do you have in yours? We love pictures!

kristop64089 · July 11, 2015, 11:57 AM

This little gem came with a Holster, Speed loader, factory grips, and 50 rounds. If I told You what I paid for it, you'd probably say some bad words. All because of some wear on the backstrap, and carry wear by the hammer.

The guy took my offer of $250, but because I asked him to hold i(it was listed as first come first served), I gave him $280. He was asking $300 OBO

kristop64089 · July 11, 2015, 12:05 PM

not sure why the photos woon't post.?

James K · July 12, 2015, 01:49 PM

The secret of accurate shooting with a "snubbie" is the same as with any other gun - keep the sights lined up and squeeze the trigger.

Oddly, where the snubbie is not very good is at short range firing from a low position without using the sights, something most folks think a snubbie is made for. But a longer barrel is more visible in the peripheral vision and makes pointing (rather than aiming) easier and hits a lot more likely.

I once did a lot of point shooting (the old FBI style) and did best with a 6" K-22; I later went to a 6" K-38 and did almost as well - the extra recoil (mostly wadcutters) made no real difference. I could never do as well with a 2 or 3 inch barrel, though a Model 19 4" was OK.

Jim

June 26, 2015, 05:24 PM	#33
j102 Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Posts: 64	S&W J Frame limitations? Small revolvers are not that easy to shoot and I agree that they are great for SD at close distances. With that said, I think with practice one can become good with them. I've seen people shoot acceptable groups at 10-15 yards distances.

June 26, 2015, 07:25 PM	#34
dcludwig Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Posts: 30	Yep. Practice. Practice. Practice. __________________ U.S. Army 1968 - 1971 5th SFGA, 1st SF Republic of Vietnam, March 1969 to May 1971 KNOW the law by heart as THEY don't always ->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLxPC6YKlA

June 26, 2015, 09:38 PM	#36
dcludwig Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Posts: 30	My 642 came as a package deal with CT laser grips, so I 've not fired one with factory grips. The CT grips are a bit larger help cushion it, but with an airweight J frame and firing +p ammo, it's going to beat you up a bit. When I broke it in at the range, I think I fired a couple hundred rounds through it and the next day - sore hand! But I love to pocket carry in for SD and if ever needed for that purpose it, I won't be worrying about a sore hand. That does make it difficult to be really accurate at 25 yards, but with practice you will improve. As has been said, most people use it for SD purposes which would probably be at 7 yards or less and I think it would be very accurate at that range. __________________ U.S. Army 1968 - 1971 5th SFGA, 1st SF Republic of Vietnam, March 1969 to May 1971 KNOW the law by heart as THEY don't always ->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLxPC6YKlA

June 27, 2015, 05:32 AM	#39
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	I don't see any limitations I shoot this a lot and carry it in an ankle holster or lately in a Bianchi 9R under my left arm. Accuracy is what it can be. It took me 12 shots to kill 6 1/2 liter water bottles at 25 yards. This was shot at the club indoor range of 34' using the laser only as the sight. I liked the original rubber grip that came with it, but I had to have the CT Laser grips. Loving this 637. Its a year or so old, had fired quite a few hundred rounds with zero problems. Most of them +P David Last edited by David R; June 27, 2015 at 05:41 AM.

June 23, 2015, 07:49 PM	#26
michaelcj Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Location: Lopez Island, WA Posts: 279	Not a J frame, but I also have to qualify twice a year with the 2" model 10 that I sometimes carry [plain clothes] also out to 25 yards. The youngsters do think I'm weird but still want to work with me.

June 24, 2015, 07:53 AM	#27
cc-hangfire Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2014 Posts: 304	Thanks folks for answering the OP's question AND making me feel a whole lot better about my own shooting ability - or lack thereof. I do ok with my full sized semiautos, pretty good with the compacts & subcompacts and 4" barrel revolvers I have. But the two .38spl snubbies I recently picked up - S&W 642 and Charter Arms Undercover - have humbled me. Those small grips in my big hands, short sight radius, combined with the DA trigger pull do make these a challenge to shoot accurately. I have read for years that the snub nosed revolver is a gun for an expert shooter and now I understand why.

June 26, 2015, 01:11 PM	#28
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	So become an expert! Jim

June 26, 2015, 01:17 PM	#29
cc-hangfire Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2014 Posts: 304	Jim, Ha! I'm trying, I'm trying!! I'll be trying out some better grips on the S&W 642 tomorrow. And each range trip my shots are tightening up - still missing my supposed POA, but I'm scaring it with closer misses at least.

June 26, 2015, 01:41 PM	#31
Dragline45 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Posts: 3,513	I carried a couple different J frames for around 3 years and practiced a whole bunch with them. I was pretty proficient with them as I learned to shoot on DA triggers anyway, but I realized I can shoot just about any semi-auto of comparable size just as good or better than the J frame. To be honest I don't feel comfortable using a J frame for anything more than achieving COM shots at close distance, my Shield 9mm which is of comparable size and carries just as easy not only holds 3-4 more rounds but is a whole lot more accurate in my hands.

June 26, 2015, 08:30 PM	#35
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In the years I carried and fired (a lot!) my square butt Model 36, I used it almost entirely in double action. I never used any aftermarket grips or special grips. I found that for best control, having the middle finger all the way up in the grip worked for me. IMHO, the idea that there is a need for some kind of grip filler just isn't true. People will object that the hand will be "bent" and that the index finger will not be parallel to the barrel. So? The gun is a revolver, not an auto pistol and it is best controlled if it is used the way it was made to be used. If filler grips or something like the Tyler filler is used, the grip is not tight enough for good control in recoil. When I bought a 642, the factory (Hogue?) grip was the worst I have ever tried - no control and the recoil beat the heck out of my hand. I replaced them with the old type wood grips. Jim

July 7, 2015, 08:57 PM	#40
shooter1911 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: DFW Area Posts: 265	As indicated by my name, I shoot and carry 1911s of several sizes as often as possible, but when a small pocket gun is in order, these days it's a 340PD with either Speer 135gr +Ps or the same bullet in .357. This is a difficult JFrame to master as it only weighs 11.4 oz. I feel comfortable hitting a man sized target out to 15 yds consistently, because I practice from point blank to 15yds with a silhouette frequently. I don't attribute this skill to anything other than I have been carrying and shooting JFrames since the 60s with my first purchase being a Model 36, which I still own. That equates to about 50 years of messing with these guns. I learned over the years that a 2-3" JFrame is inherently accurate, but it takes a lot of practice to get good with these guns. By the way in 50 years I have never pulled the trigger when it didn't go bang. Just lucky I guess.

July 8, 2015, 06:02 AM	#41
tallball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2014 Posts: 2,444	I can hit a paper plate every time at seven yards with my 2" 38. That is plenty good enough for its purpose, self defense. Like the man said, anything farther than that and chances are good that you will need an attorney. It is interesting to see how well I can shoot it at 15 or 25 yards, but that is "just for fun". It is not the gun's intended purpose.

July 8, 2015, 07:48 AM	#42
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	But the TV detectives can hit a moving target a block away shooting one handed from the hip...

July 10, 2015, 11:27 AM	#46
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	2' and 3" guns can be just as accurate as a 4" or 6" BUT they are much harder to shoot. In my younger day I had a 3" 36 that would do 2" groups at 25 yds. all day long off bags, off hand was another story.

July 12, 2015, 01:49 PM	#50
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The secret of accurate shooting with a "snubbie" is the same as with any other gun - keep the sights lined up and squeeze the trigger. Oddly, where the snubbie is not very good is at short range firing from a low position without using the sights, something most folks think a snubbie is made for. But a longer barrel is more visible in the peripheral vision and makes pointing (rather than aiming) easier and hits a lot more likely. I once did a lot of point shooting (the old FBI style) and did best with a 6" K-22; I later went to a 6" K-38 and did almost as well - the extra recoil (mostly wadcutters) made no real difference. I could never do as well with a 2 or 3 inch barrel, though a Model 19 4" was OK. Jim