another german drilling help

evil_ivan · February 27, 2014, 04:13 AM

good day to you all.
I need help about a drilling that looks visually fairly similar to another drilling from this forum(thread link):
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519562

the following gun is supposed to be ordered by a Croatian count for his foremen. The manufacturing date is believed to be early 1900.

info that I have about this particular are as following:
2x 16 gauge/ 65 mm
9.3 x 72 mm R
sn. 8183 ??
jk 650 ??
1.41 N ??
the barrels have a stamp on them (krup essen)
and there is also an Ogris Ferlach marking.

That is all that i know for now.
have some bad photos of the gun, hope they can give you some insight until I make some better ones.

PetahW · February 27, 2014, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil ivan

the following gun is supposed to be ordered by a Croatian count for his foremen. - [see below]
The manufacturing date is believed to be early 1900. - [see below]

info that I have about this particular are as following:
2x 16 gauge/ 65 mm - [Short chambers - see below]
9.3 x 72 mm R - [A common combination gun rifle chambering]
sn. 8183 ?? - [probably]
jk 650 ?? - [most likely the date code - indicating the gun was made in June of 1950 (I could be wrong) ]
1.41 N ?? - [a nitro prookmark]
the barrels have a stamp on them (krup essen) - [see below]
and there is also an Ogris Ferlach marking. - [see below]

Welcome to TFL !

AFAIK, You have most of what you want.

"krup essen" means the barrels are made of steel from the Krupp steel works in Germany - high quality steel.

"Ferlach" is the 400-odd year old gunmaking area of Austria.

"Orgis" was the maker for your wonderful drilling.

"65mm" means the shot bbls are chambered for the 2-9/16" (fired length) shells - shorter than modern 2-3/4"/70mm shells.

Since your chambers are marked "65mm", that means they were made after the introduction/upgrade of 16ga cambers from that length to 2-3/4" (70mm), about 1926. (the gun is dated June 1950).

Any 16ga barrels made before that time (1926) were simply marked "16", as there was no need to designate the chamber length (no other longer length shells made prior to then).

Without documentation/provenance, there no way to prove the "word-of-mouth" story about the Count.

.

evil_ivan · February 27, 2014, 06:31 AM

thank you for a very informative reply.
will try to get my hands on some documentation about those historical claims.
I don see anyone carrying drilling's here, is there a market for that kind of hunting rifles ? what is the estimated worth of guns like these ?

PetahW · February 27, 2014, 06:49 AM

.

You're welcome.

Combination guns are usally appreciated by classic-minded folks, who hunt in areas where both large & small game/birds are all "in season" at the same time, alowing the sportsman to take whatever game comes across his/her path.

I happen to like & use one occassionally - YMMV.

Your Drilling has chamberings that are less than modern & ammo is not commonly available everywhere (but can be ordered) - which usually puts their value somewhere near the $2K (+/-) mark, in the same condition as yours .

You would be best served, in regards to value, by surfing gun-only auction sites for "drillings", then locate another drilling (any unknown maker) that's much like yours in chambering, decoration & condition, to find out how much that gun recently sold for. (guns are really woth only what someone will actually pay for one - not what somebody "thinks", or "once paid xxx", whenever.

.

mapsjanhere · February 27, 2014, 12:11 PM

If it's truly a Ferlach gun there should be a full set of Austrian proof marks on the barrel, typically right next to the locking hooks. Better pictures of the underside of the barrel needed. Here's a list of what you should be looking for http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

James K · February 27, 2014, 02:03 PM

Odd, but I don't see any proof marks in the pictures. In any case by January 1941, the Austrian Proof law and the proof marks shown in the link had been replaced by German law and marks. So that gun would not have Austrian proofs.

Jim

mapsjanhere · February 28, 2014, 09:36 AM

In which case there would be German marks

. If it's Ferlach it's going to have some proof. So with the 9.3x72 chambering my guess would be that the gun was done way before WWII, you seem mainly 9.3x74 in the 30s and later.

Jim Watson · February 28, 2014, 10:54 AM

Pictures don't show the barrel flats or frame water table where proof marks normally go.

I did find mention of a Markus Ogris in Ferlach in the late 19th, early 20th century and a contemporary Ogris who might be a descendant. There is a Josef Ogris street in Ferlach with a four star hotel.

See the next to last post at:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...&Number=273566

James K · February 28, 2014, 01:37 PM

Pure curiosity, but does anyone know what the deal was with gun makers and Krupp? AFAIK, Krupp did not make guns or barrels, only steel blanks, and the gun makers put the Krupp name on the finished barrels. Did they do that simply because of the high reputation of Krupp steel, or was there some kind of agreement, maybe like Krupp required buyers of their steel to mark it as a Krupp product, or they gave discounts if their name was put on?

Jim

PetahW · February 28, 2014, 03:15 PM

.

AFAIK, the "Krupp" marking was used as a marketing/prestige asset, because Krupp steel was the Gold Standard for steel, in Europe @ that time, before others (like Bofors, etc) got their act together.

.

James K · March 1, 2014, 08:30 PM

I am sure the gun makers were well aware of the prestige value, but I wondered if Krupp had some kind of deal, like "you use our steel, you put our name on it, and we both benefit". The gun maker showed that he used the best steel, and Krupp put its name before the shooting/hunting public.

Maybe if they didn't do that, they should have.

Jim

Jim Watson · March 2, 2014, 03:51 PM

Well, some British gunmakers were proud of their Whitworth Compressed Steel. And Vickers steel.

I have seen Continental guns marked "Acier Cockerill" for the big Belgian steel company, interestingly founded by a British industrialist, John Cockerill.
Also "Acier Diamante" on a French Verney Carron, but I am unable to determine whether that was a steel company brand or a Verney Carron trademark.

But nobody got it stamped on the gun as big and bold as Krupp.

February 27, 2014, 04:13 AM	#1
evil_ivan Junior Member Join Date: February 14, 2014 Posts: 2	another german drilling help good day to you all. I need help about a drilling that looks visually fairly similar to another drilling from this forum(thread link): http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519562 the following gun is supposed to be ordered by a Croatian count for his foremen. The manufacturing date is believed to be early 1900. info that I have about this particular are as following: 2x 16 gauge/ 65 mm 9.3 x 72 mm R sn. 8183 ?? jk 650 ?? 1.41 N ?? the barrels have a stamp on them (krup essen) and there is also an Ogris Ferlach marking. That is all that i know for now. have some bad photos of the gun, hope they can give you some insight until I make some better ones.

February 27, 2014, 12:11 PM	#5
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	If it's truly a Ferlach gun there should be a full set of Austrian proof marks on the barrel, typically right next to the locking hooks. Better pictures of the underside of the barrel needed. Here's a list of what you should be looking for http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

February 28, 2014, 09:36 AM	#7
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	In which case there would be German marks . If it's Ferlach it's going to have some proof. So with the 9.3x72 chambering my guess would be that the gun was done way before WWII, you seem mainly 9.3x74 in the 30s and later. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

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February 27, 2014, 06:31 AM	#3
evil_ivan Junior Member Join Date: February 14, 2014 Posts: 2	thank you for a very informative reply. will try to get my hands on some documentation about those historical claims. I don see anyone carrying drilling's here, is there a market for that kind of hunting rifles ? what is the estimated worth of guns like these ?

February 27, 2014, 06:49 AM	#4
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. You're welcome. Combination guns are usally appreciated by classic-minded folks, who hunt in areas where both large & small game/birds are all "in season" at the same time, alowing the sportsman to take whatever game comes across his/her path. I happen to like & use one occassionally - YMMV. Your Drilling has chamberings that are less than modern & ammo is not commonly available everywhere (but can be ordered) - which usually puts their value somewhere near the $2K (+/-) mark, in the same condition as yours . You would be best served, in regards to value, by surfing gun-only auction sites for "drillings", then locate another drilling (any unknown maker) that's much like yours in chambering, decoration & condition, to find out how much that gun recently sold for. (guns are really woth only what someone will actually pay for one - not what somebody "thinks", or "once paid xxx", whenever. .

February 27, 2014, 02:03 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Odd, but I don't see any proof marks in the pictures. In any case by January 1941, the Austrian Proof law and the proof marks shown in the link had been replaced by German law and marks. So that gun would not have Austrian proofs. Jim

February 28, 2014, 10:54 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Pictures don't show the barrel flats or frame water table where proof marks normally go. I did find mention of a Markus Ogris in Ferlach in the late 19th, early 20th century and a contemporary Ogris who might be a descendant. There is a Josef Ogris street in Ferlach with a four star hotel. See the next to last post at: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...&Number=273566

February 28, 2014, 01:37 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Pure curiosity, but does anyone know what the deal was with gun makers and Krupp? AFAIK, Krupp did not make guns or barrels, only steel blanks, and the gun makers put the Krupp name on the finished barrels. Did they do that simply because of the high reputation of Krupp steel, or was there some kind of agreement, maybe like Krupp required buyers of their steel to mark it as a Krupp product, or they gave discounts if their name was put on? Jim

February 28, 2014, 03:15 PM	#10
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. AFAIK, the "Krupp" marking was used as a marketing/prestige asset, because Krupp steel was the Gold Standard for steel, in Europe @ that time, before others (like Bofors, etc) got their act together. .

March 1, 2014, 08:30 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am sure the gun makers were well aware of the prestige value, but I wondered if Krupp had some kind of deal, like "you use our steel, you put our name on it, and we both benefit". The gun maker showed that he used the best steel, and Krupp put its name before the shooting/hunting public. Maybe if they didn't do that, they should have. Jim

March 2, 2014, 03:51 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Well, some British gunmakers were proud of their Whitworth Compressed Steel. And Vickers steel. I have seen Continental guns marked "Acier Cockerill" for the big Belgian steel company, interestingly founded by a British industrialist, John Cockerill. Also "Acier Diamante" on a French Verney Carron, but I am unable to determine whether that was a steel company brand or a Verney Carron trademark. But nobody got it stamped on the gun as big and bold as Krupp.