test batch of .223 needs HELP

870pilot · July 30, 2007, 08:31 AM

here's the specs on my first test batch of .223 and a few problems...

once fired .223, full length resized, but not trimmed as wilson gauge said it was within specs. using lee dies including factory crimp die.

first five rounds fired fine but on the sixth – click – ejected the round and picked it up form the ground. bullet was pushed back into case completely and grains of H335 leaking out.

loaded several more rounds into the mag and a series of clicks as the rounds failed to fire and bullets disappeared back into the cases.

tore down the S&W MP15T and cleaned up the powder residue.

i did a search and some say to crimp for .223 and some do not and since i've done a lot of handgun reloading, this is my first rifle batch, i need some help

more crimp to prevent the bullet from being slammed back into the case?

is there such a thing as too much crimp?

excessive pressure if there's too much crimp?

glad i did a small batch to test, mic'd the OAL and it matched the measurements of some factory loads.

i welcome all input...

mechdriver · July 30, 2007, 09:57 AM

Replies on THR.

rwilson452 · July 30, 2007, 11:43 AM

IF yor using a lee die the cases must be trimmed to the same length for the die to work corectly. I suspect you need more crimp. If you set up too much crimp you can crush the case.

Scorch · July 30, 2007, 01:16 PM

You need to figure out what is shoving the bullets back into the case, and why your primers are not firing. Simply not enough crimp is not the answer. I shoot service rifle match with my AR with no crimp on the ammo, and I have never had a round set back into the case. Sounds to me like your rounds are running into the receiver while feeding, and the leaking powder is keeping the bolt from going into battery.

bigautomatic · July 30, 2007, 03:25 PM

Could it be that the OAL is too long? Maybe the ogive of the bullet catching 0n the reciever on its way into the chamber, pushing the bullet back? The .223 doesn't have enough recoil to push the bullet back while in the magazine.

Daniel BOON · August 3, 2007, 02:12 PM

is tedious, especially for an ar15; but when I load for my bush, I put a light crimp on the round. cannalure bullets help a lot. I try hard not to load un cannalured bullets. i use to trim the brass, but I don't anymore. I try to buy store bought cheap ammo to practice with, then reload the once fired stuff. that seems to work.

FM12 · August 6, 2007, 12:25 AM

The bullets may be eratically sized, ie some .222, .223.221, etc (or some such combination) and are not giving a good fit in the case mouth. The sizer may be out of specs, see if you can borrow another to ensure the case and neck are sized according to SAMMI specs. May be a combination of all three, with maybe even some cases with thin necks.

Any such trouble with factory ammo? What brand /weight bullets are you reloading?

Since you're loading for a self stuffer, might want to consider a RCBS Small Base sizer one of these days. I dont think it could hurt any, especially for an AR rifle.

BTW, I use H335 a lot for .223, and love it, extremely accurate.

Powderman · August 6, 2007, 02:05 AM

Get--and use--a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Bullet setback is a BIG problem, especially with the .223. The feed angle is so steep that it WILL happen sooner or later, unless you apply a good crimp.

Check your case neck tension, too. It should hold the bullet firmly; one of the things I did to ensure good tension was to take the expander out of my die, and polish it--first with 600 grit, then with crocus cloth, while it was chucked into a 3/8ths VSR drill at medium speed.

Trapper L · August 6, 2007, 09:35 AM

The issue is most likely that you are using a bullet with no cannelure.

Edward429451 · August 6, 2007, 10:48 AM

All 223's will need a moderate crimp. You proved it, I've proved it. Not only does it help stop any setback but it seals the round from absorbing any humidity.

I heard that don't crimp em talk for maximum accuracy. Tried it with 40 rounds just to see. One mag went into the rifle and the other into the magpouch on the rifle case. Didn't get to shoot for 4 months and when I did I had 9 bad rounds from the uncrimped rounds in the mag. The other rounds in the mag pouch all went fine. These are the first bad rounds I loaded in 223 of at least a few thousand. I pulled the 9 bad rounds when I got home and the powder was contaminated in them. Absorbed oil from the rifle.

From what I hear, AR's have been KB'd from too much crimp. Start with a 1/4 turn and check the round on a bathroom scale with a 2 X 4 against the tip of the bullet. Measure OAL first, apply 30 lbs of pressure to the bullet against the scale and remeasure. If no setback, you're good. If setback occurs apply a little more crimp and recheck. I've had no problems before or since crimping my 223's this way, even with un-cannulered bullets.

Alleykat · August 6, 2007, 12:21 PM

Do you know how to use that Wilson case gage for properly setting up your sizing die? Sounds like you're not sizing the neck sufficiently for proper neck tension. I've used both crimped and uncrimped .223s in my bolt rifle and in my Bushy, with equally good results.

If you've bumped the shoulders too much, you will get misfires. You don't need a cannelure for crimping with the Lee FCD.

870pilot · August 6, 2007, 02:57 PM

OP here...

just an update... went back, recrimped a small batch and presto, no set backs, all fired well, grouped well... i am

alleycat... i did read the instructions that came with the wilson, but if you wanna share some insight on the connection between the gauge and the die, i'm always ready to learn

thanks for help guys

FM12 · August 6, 2007, 04:34 PM

I'm a little confused, in your original post, you said you were using Lee dies, including the Factory Crimp die...were you or were you not crimping with the FCD from the get go? If so, did you go back an apply a heavier crimp, and remove the problem?

870pilot · August 7, 2007, 07:21 AM

was using the FCD, just went back and aplied a heavier crimp... if you follow the directions that came with the die, the crimp was too light...

all is good

FM12 · August 7, 2007, 08:07 AM

Good for you! Isn't it good when you're able to fix problems like this with a little help from your friends? Man, I love this forum!

Toolman · August 8, 2007, 06:27 PM

I've handloaded at least 5K .223 rounds for my bushy. With an autoloader, you have to crimp to eliminate bullet setback. The Lee catalog specifies using the factory crimp die for autoloaders. I'll bet the bullet setback occurred with the rounds in the lower end of your magazine.

Alleykat · August 9, 2007, 12:44 PM

There isn't enough recoil when a .223 fires to cause setback in a magazine.

I don't have anything to offer, beyond what the Wilson case gage instructions told you. You have already discovered, I'm sure, that the main purpose of the gage isn't checking for o.a.l., but for determining whether you're bumping the shoulder properly for correct headspace.

The Wilson case gage isn't a "chamber-proofing, SAAMI-spec" case gage, as are handgun case gages.

Toolman · August 10, 2007, 06:56 PM

AllyKat, I'll agree you are correct that the recoil from a .223 would not cause bullet set back on rounds in the mag.
As far as anything else to add, I always full case length size & trim my cases and use the factory crimp die when handloading for autoloaders.
The only problems I've encountered with my handloads were the two rounds that I didn't charge and one round that I seated the primer in upside down.

Toolman · August 10, 2007, 06:58 PM

I use a Sinclair bullet comparator for setting/checking O/A length on loaded rounds.

castnblast · August 13, 2007, 10:36 PM

Sounds like COL is too long...Also, You must resize your cases if you are shooting them out of an automatic. No if's and's or buts...

Alleykat · August 16, 2007, 05:16 AM

Or, a semi-auto!

I've loaded both crimped (using the FCD) and uncrimped for my Bushmaster. Never have any failures, regardless of method used. Many, if not most, AR competitors don't crimp.

The setback was probably caused by insufficient neck tension. The FCD probably just compensated for the lack of neck tension.

For the OP, you never addressed whether you were using the Wilson gage for setting up the sizing die for proper headspace. Are you? (using the cut in the head of the gage?)

870pilot · August 16, 2007, 08:17 AM

this is what i posted several posts above...

OP here...

just an update... went back, recrimped a small batch and presto, no set backs, all fired well, grouped well... i am

alleycat... i did read the instructions that came with the wilson, but if you wanna share some insight on the connection between the gauge and the die, i'm always ready to learn

thanks for help guys

July 30, 2007, 08:31 AM	#1
870pilot Member Join Date: November 29, 2005 Posts: 70	test batch of .223 needs HELP here's the specs on my first test batch of .223 and a few problems... once fired .223, full length resized, but not trimmed as wilson gauge said it was within specs. using lee dies including factory crimp die. first five rounds fired fine but on the sixth – click – ejected the round and picked it up form the ground. bullet was pushed back into case completely and grains of H335 leaking out. loaded several more rounds into the mag and a series of clicks as the rounds failed to fire and bullets disappeared back into the cases. tore down the S&W MP15T and cleaned up the powder residue. i did a search and some say to crimp for .223 and some do not and since i've done a lot of handgun reloading, this is my first rifle batch, i need some help more crimp to prevent the bullet from being slammed back into the case? is there such a thing as too much crimp? excessive pressure if there's too much crimp? glad i did a small batch to test, mic'd the OAL and it matched the measurements of some factory loads. i welcome all input...

July 30, 2007, 01:16 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	You need to figure out what is shoving the bullets back into the case, and why your primers are not firing. Simply not enough crimp is not the answer. I shoot service rifle match with my AR with no crimp on the ammo, and I have never had a round set back into the case. Sounds to me like your rounds are running into the receiver while feeding, and the leaking powder is keeping the bolt from going into battery. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 3, 2007, 02:12 PM	#6
Daniel BOON Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Henderson NV Posts: 360	loading for a 223? is tedious, especially for an ar15; but when I load for my bush, I put a light crimp on the round. cannalure bullets help a lot. I try hard not to load un cannalured bullets. i use to trim the brass, but I don't anymore. I try to buy store bought cheap ammo to practice with, then reload the once fired stuff. that seems to work.

August 6, 2007, 02:05 AM	#8
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Get--and use--a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Bullet setback is a BIG problem, especially with the .223. The feed angle is so steep that it WILL happen sooner or later, unless you apply a good crimp. Check your case neck tension, too. It should hold the bullet firmly; one of the things I did to ensure good tension was to take the expander out of my die, and polish it--first with 600 grit, then with crocus cloth, while it was chucked into a 3/8ths VSR drill at medium speed. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

August 6, 2007, 04:34 PM	#13
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	I'm a little confused, in your original post, you said you were using Lee dies, including the Factory Crimp die...were you or were you not crimping with the FCD from the get go? If so, did you go back an apply a heavier crimp, and remove the problem? Last edited by FM12; August 6, 2007 at 04:35 PM. Reason: spelling correction

July 30, 2007, 09:57 AM	#2
mechdriver Member Join Date: June 14, 2006 Location: NC Posts: 44	Replies on THR.

July 30, 2007, 11:43 AM	#3
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	IF yor using a lee die the cases must be trimmed to the same length for the die to work corectly. I suspect you need more crimp. If you set up too much crimp you can crush the case.

July 30, 2007, 03:25 PM	#5
bigautomatic Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 610	Could it be that the OAL is too long? Maybe the ogive of the bullet catching 0n the reciever on its way into the chamber, pushing the bullet back? The .223 doesn't have enough recoil to push the bullet back while in the magazine.

August 6, 2007, 12:25 AM	#7
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	The bullets may be eratically sized, ie some .222, .223.221, etc (or some such combination) and are not giving a good fit in the case mouth. The sizer may be out of specs, see if you can borrow another to ensure the case and neck are sized according to SAMMI specs. May be a combination of all three, with maybe even some cases with thin necks. Any such trouble with factory ammo? What brand /weight bullets are you reloading? Since you're loading for a self stuffer, might want to consider a RCBS Small Base sizer one of these days. I dont think it could hurt any, especially for an AR rifle. BTW, I use H335 a lot for .223, and love it, extremely accurate.

August 6, 2007, 09:35 AM	#9
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	The issue is most likely that you are using a bullet with no cannelure.

August 6, 2007, 10:48 AM	#10
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	All 223's will need a moderate crimp. You proved it, I've proved it. Not only does it help stop any setback but it seals the round from absorbing any humidity. I heard that don't crimp em talk for maximum accuracy. Tried it with 40 rounds just to see. One mag went into the rifle and the other into the magpouch on the rifle case. Didn't get to shoot for 4 months and when I did I had 9 bad rounds from the uncrimped rounds in the mag. The other rounds in the mag pouch all went fine. These are the first bad rounds I loaded in 223 of at least a few thousand. I pulled the 9 bad rounds when I got home and the powder was contaminated in them. Absorbed oil from the rifle. From what I hear, AR's have been KB'd from too much crimp. Start with a 1/4 turn and check the round on a bathroom scale with a 2 X 4 against the tip of the bullet. Measure OAL first, apply 30 lbs of pressure to the bullet against the scale and remeasure. If no setback, you're good. If setback occurs apply a little more crimp and recheck. I've had no problems before or since crimping my 223's this way, even with un-cannulered bullets.

August 6, 2007, 12:21 PM	#11
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Do you know how to use that Wilson case gage for properly setting up your sizing die? Sounds like you're not sizing the neck sufficiently for proper neck tension. I've used both crimped and uncrimped .223s in my bolt rifle and in my Bushy, with equally good results. If you've bumped the shoulders too much, you will get misfires. You don't need a cannelure for crimping with the Lee FCD.

August 6, 2007, 02:57 PM	#12
870pilot Member Join Date: November 29, 2005 Posts: 70	OP here... just an update... went back, recrimped a small batch and presto, no set backs, all fired well, grouped well... i am alleycat... i did read the instructions that came with the wilson, but if you wanna share some insight on the connection between the gauge and the die, i'm always ready to learn thanks for help guys

August 7, 2007, 07:21 AM	#14
870pilot Member Join Date: November 29, 2005 Posts: 70	was using the FCD, just went back and aplied a heavier crimp... if you follow the directions that came with the die, the crimp was too light... all is good

August 7, 2007, 08:07 AM	#15
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Good for you! Isn't it good when you're able to fix problems like this with a little help from your friends? Man, I love this forum!

August 8, 2007, 06:27 PM	#16
Toolman Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 514	I've handloaded at least 5K .223 rounds for my bushy. With an autoloader, you have to crimp to eliminate bullet setback. The Lee catalog specifies using the factory crimp die for autoloaders. I'll bet the bullet setback occurred with the rounds in the lower end of your magazine.

August 9, 2007, 12:44 PM	#17
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	There isn't enough recoil when a .223 fires to cause setback in a magazine. I don't have anything to offer, beyond what the Wilson case gage instructions told you. You have already discovered, I'm sure, that the main purpose of the gage isn't checking for o.a.l., but for determining whether you're bumping the shoulder properly for correct headspace. The Wilson case gage isn't a "chamber-proofing, SAAMI-spec" case gage, as are handgun case gages.

August 10, 2007, 06:56 PM	#18
Toolman Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 514	AllyKat, I'll agree you are correct that the recoil from a .223 would not cause bullet set back on rounds in the mag. As far as anything else to add, I always full case length size & trim my cases and use the factory crimp die when handloading for autoloaders. The only problems I've encountered with my handloads were the two rounds that I didn't charge and one round that I seated the primer in upside down.

August 10, 2007, 06:58 PM	#19
Toolman Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 514	I use a Sinclair bullet comparator for setting/checking O/A length on loaded rounds.

August 13, 2007, 10:36 PM	#20
castnblast Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 1,148	Sounds like COL is too long...Also, You must resize your cases if you are shooting them out of an automatic. No if's and's or buts... __________________ VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter

August 16, 2007, 05:16 AM	#21
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Or, a semi-auto! I've loaded both crimped (using the FCD) and uncrimped for my Bushmaster. Never have any failures, regardless of method used. Many, if not most, AR competitors don't crimp. The setback was probably caused by insufficient neck tension. The FCD probably just compensated for the lack of neck tension. For the OP, you never addressed whether you were using the Wilson gage for setting up the sizing die for proper headspace. Are you? (using the cut in the head of the gage?)

August 16, 2007, 08:17 AM	#22
870pilot Member Join Date: November 29, 2005 Posts: 70	this is what i posted several posts above... OP here... just an update... went back, recrimped a small batch and presto, no set backs, all fired well, grouped well... i am alleycat... i did read the instructions that came with the wilson, but if you wanna share some insight on the connection between the gauge and the die, i'm always ready to learn thanks for help guys