Big Buck Canned Hunts

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I here people complaining all the time about so called canned hunts on private ranches, where they take you to a feeder and put you in a stand, where you watch Bucks come in and out to a feeder all day until you find the one you want to shoot.

I agree that ,it ain't REALLY hunting, but does ANYONE really pay $1500.00 to $2500.00 with the expectation of stumbling around on a private game ranch HOPING they will see something?

That's what we have to do here in Southeastern Oklahoma. If I really want to just hang a big rack on the wall, then you pay your money and go on a canned hunt right?

[youp]

is 1500 or 2500 alot of money anymore? have you seen what they want in Manitoba to sit in an unheated box all day?

Tha fact is we as a society of hunters have begun to place a great value on a big horned buck. This great value is reflected by the price people are willing to pay for a big buck.

There are few people that actually know how to hunt a deer. We can sit over feeders, find a rub line, or a funnel. Go out on a ranch and actually find and pursue one buck? No one I know.

[Art Eatman]

The common usage of "canned hunt" is not the same as sitting in a stand near a feeder. A canned hunt is where the animal is so constrained that no element of fair chase is involved. Confinement in a small area that is surrounded by a high fence, for instance.

Hunting from a stand takes less skill than still-hunting on foot through brush or woods, but it's still fair. It's no different from a mountain lion's ambush near food or water...

Art

[guntotin_fool]

In most states, hunting from a stand near a feeder is called baiting and is frowned upon. So many people wet themselves over being able to say "I shot a ten pointer" or what ever that this type of shooting is becoming more and more prevalent. I think it stinks.

In my state of Minnesota, if you plant foodplots that will benefit the animals all year long, then you may hunt over it. If you just place food or mineral/salt with the intent of luring a deer, then you are baiting. Shooting over a feeder is not hunting it is culling. big difference.

[chemist308]

If I really want to just hang a big rack on the wall, then you pay your money and go on a canned hunt right?

Don't give in to the ad-man on that one! If you're going to drop that kind of cash get a bow or a muzzleloader, and if you must, out of state lisences. Odds are actually against you that way.

[biglabsrule]

Is that legal in your states, baiting. In New York it's prety shameful to have to use a salt lick or corn, and very illegal. Last fall 3 or 4 cops from New Jersey came up here and did that, got busted and fined heavily... most people respect the white tail enough to give them a fair chance around here, but if its legal suppose thats all your preference... know i wouldnt do that, or be truely proud of a rack i took that way

[Art Eatman]

Different states have different rules. And, it's pretty much a deal of, "You hunt your way; I'll hunt my way. If you're happy with your way, I'm happy for you."

Face it: With an urban society, there's no way that all hunters can learn and develop the skills that rural folks have. They don't have the time or opportunity. I'd rather see a guy sitting in a stand than sitting in an office dreaming about being out hunting--regardless of how it's done.

I've always been a long-haul walking hunter in my desert. Ten and more miles a day--but those days are gone. I hurt too bad to do that anymore. While I take pride in the kills I've made, I'm not gonna run my mouth against some guy who's happy that he managed to kill a good buck while sitting in a stand. He's doing the best he can with what he knows how to do. I've never seen the point in raining on some other guy's parade.

Art

[Desertfox]

Once again Art, you are the voice of reason.
A bad day hunting is usually better than a good day working. (unless you are Dick Cheney)
Stalking, stand hunting, ground blind hunting, chasing dogs, or drive hunting, all add up to being in the great outdoors in pursuit of your passion.

[Scorch]

There was a thread a week or so ago about what your definition of hunting is. I think the definition came down to pursuing an animal with the intent of bagging it.

I personally find canned hunts disgusting, as there is no skill involved in locating, trailing, or pursuing the game. Therefore, it is not hunting, it is shooting, an execution, or slaughter. Apparently SCI and B&C feel the same way, because they don't allow canned hunt trophies into the books, has to be fair chase (meaning the animal had a chance to escape).

What about stand hunting? While it's not exactly pursuing the animal, there is some level of skill or artifice involved. I'm sure stand hunters don't get one every day, so there is at least the chance for the animal to outwit or outmaneuver the hunter. So I would say it's hunting.

Coursing, trailing with dogs, ambushes, stand, still hunting, etc, all involve some skill, physical prowess, stealth, or whatever outdoor skill is needed to bring the animal down. If you agree with the type of hunting, do it and enjoy it. If you don't agree with it but it still meets the criteria for hunting, let someone else enjoy it. If it isn't hunting, then don't do it.

[jhgreasemonkey]

Canned hunts are okay for someone who's not able to hunt like disabled or elderly. I have been skunked enough seasons to consider it once or twice. But I am quick to realize that I hunt for the adventure and challenge. So I will stick with the old fashioned way and get one once in a while. Its more rewarding.
FYI-in Washington state you are not allowed to stand hunt, or hunt with hounds and bait. (now our cougar population is too high and affecting the deer population in parts of N E Wa.)

[FirstFreedom]

I agree with Art. I will say however, that if your goal is just the big rack for the wall, then fine - nothing wrong with that in my view. BUT, there's usually more to just a rack on the wall. It's a rack on the wall *WHICH HAS A GOOD FAIR CHASE STORY BEHIND IT*, that you can brag about to everyone you meet over the years, with pride. There's just less pride to it being a 'game ranch' animal (even if you're not calling that a canned hunt). But it also depends on how big the ranch is - if it's big enough, then it's really no difference from free range animals. It is NOT above me personally to go on a ranch-hunt, and I probably will for bison, exotic deer, and possibly even elk. And furthermore, I will gladly hang the rack or cape on the wall. But it's still not *as good* as a true free range story + rack. [for bison I will have to - that's the only way]

[ninemm]

I once worked with a person who told me the details of his bear hunt.

He sat in his hotel room drinking beer and watching television until about 2 or 3 hours before sunset...he then drove to his tree stand, climbed up to the stand, previously placed there by a hunting guide, and when the bear came by around dusk to eat out of the same bucket that had been baited every day for several weeks...he shot it with a Marlin 444. End of "Bear Hunt".

It was fairly amusing to hear him tell other people about the bear he shot, ie, how big it was, etc. Without saying exactly how it was done. He went into detail with me because we were friends. He had the reputation as a great hunter.

I don't have anything against people that do this type of hunting. It is not something that I would do. You can call it harvesting game or what ever you want...it just does not seem fair to the animal. JMO

[Rembrandt]

Big buck for $1500-$2500?.....try $6500 and up. That's what some Texas game ranches are getting. While bow hunting sheep near Kerrville, guide showed us a 1000 acre area that had nothing but Whitetail bucks in it, no doe's. Really nothing more than a commercial livestock operation where you harvest your own meat. North American Whitetail magazine had been there the week before shooting photos....next time you see those giant bucks in the magazines, look closely at the trees and background. Probably taken in the Texas hill country.

[Art Eatman]

"The times, they are a-changing."

I live in a tourism area, but it's way away from most anywhere, there at the west side of Big Bend National Park. What I've regularly heard is complaints about the length of time it takes to drive there, since the nearest air service is 250 miles away: "I just don't have the TIME!"

So it is with many who work long hours in cities. They don't have the time to do the old-days style of getting a season lease and spending several weekends or three- or four-day hunt sessions. But they have money.

So, as ever, where there's a market, somebody's gonna fill that need.

Most of us here at this particular forum aren't of that general group. We spend more time studying the subject of hunting, and make hunting time a priority. We're a whole different deal.

Their style ain't my style, so I just mostly ignore it. As I said before, better they're at least out seeing the "wild" than sitting in that office, dreaming.

Art

[FirstFreedom]

I've been told that there's a landowner down in Kiowa or Comanche Co., Okla, that has a big elk herd on his 4500 acres (that escaped from the adjoining wildlife refuge), and he only charges about $4,000 to guarantee a shot at a BIG bull elk, and only about $800 for a shot at a cow. Now it's seeming like a good deal compared to a $6,500 trophy deer.

[P.S. In Okla., it is legal to hunt elk in Kiowa, Comanche, & Caddo Counties provided you have a tag. The only way to get a tag is to get written landowner permission. So the landowners with elk on their land charge whatever the market bears for this permission. But these are true free range elk at this point - now that they have escaped the wildlife refuge. I think there are like 4-6 archery days and 3 or 4 gun days each year, for these 'feral elk'.]

[silicon wolverine]

Its simply american capitalism. while i dont think its "sportsmanlike" i guess if you want to blow the dough who cares? here in SD there is onyl one canned hunting ranch and they raise thier own animals and are perodically inspected by anuimal health officals and all shooters are reuired to have a tag.

SW

[jhgreasemonkey]

It bothers me that this is turning into a rich mans sport.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

Trophy hunting has always been a RICH man's sport. In past centuries, the Kings owned ALL the land and would kill anyone found poaching. In the last century, Teddy Roosevelt, hunted all over the world for trophies.

It's still pretty much the same way now, only a little more wide-spread, with more people having enough money to do it.
I'm not someone who cares enough to pay for a big rack, but I don't have a problem with anyone who does. Just not my cup of tea.

Besides, you can't cook the rack long enough to get it tender.

[Jseime]

Ah thats not hunting unless you break a sweat or get frost bite on several appendages or both its not really hunting. In my eyes theres a big difference between shooting and hunting and killing something in a fence that it cant jump is shooting.

If youve got money spend it on good hunting accessories and go do it. For the price of one trophy buck on a canned hunt you could go buy an old beater chevy 4X4 and do some real hunting outside the fence.

[guntotin_fool]

I think the " no TIME" issue is an excuse. For almost everyone in the USA< with 5 hours of their location there is real wild game hunting. I am positive that within 8 hours there is for all. driving time, not flying.

People are lost without hot showers, motel hunts, just walking out and learning a bit about what is going on.

Any one disagree?

[Art Eatman]

"Any one disagree?"

Yeah, somewhat; not totally. A helluva lot of the high-pay folks put in 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week. Lotta stress. Lotta fatigue that militates against "just getting outdoors" in country where you can see wild game.

All manner of different types of folks. For instance, think of some guy who's never been away from a city (I once had to teach a room mate how to drive a car; he was in Grad school, but being from Queens, NY, he'd always ridden the subway or a bus.). Never exposed to shooting. Now he's 25 or 30 and somehow gets inveigled into a hunting trip.

This guy, from the gitgo, is gonna deal with camping? Is gonna have a clue about still hunting or cross-country chousing about at 10,000 feet?

Be charitable. Nobody was born an expert anything.

Art

[samsmix]

I gotta disagree with you Art. In my home state of Montana baiting game will draw you a healthy (and well deserved) penalty. I am an avid hunter. Avid enough to subsist mostly on venison. I am a meat hunter, sure, but have taken a number of very respectable bucks. But I have NEVER had my honor called into question as it invariably would be if I had shot deer in an enclosure or over bait.

If...and I mean IF, what these people are doing is okay by the standards of fair chase, why do so many people find it offensive? And don't tell me it's the money, because a similar amount can buy you a REAL hunt. A hunt with no bait. A hunt with a real chance for the animal to escape, not a high fence within which you can "pick up his trail" again, but a REAL chance of escape.

Don't get me wrong. It is OKAY to put down livestock (Even easily spooked livestock). That is what they were managed/raised for, but that is a "shoot" (like a pigeon shoot) not a hunt. Calling a shoot a hunt makes for a powerful taint. It is a taint that rubs off on us all.

[rem33]

Last fall we were hunting a area we have hunted on and off a long tine. Everywhere on the fences we kept seeing signs posting that this was "Private" hunting areas.
This turned into a rather large area for miles spread out on any land that was in pasture or being farmed, and plenty of the sagebrush areas near. Up a draw on a hill was a monster new house we thought, but it turns out to be " the lodge".
Finally we ran into a couple of guys that were fixing fences so we ask if they know any info on all this. They hand us a brochure for a new hunting club.
I looked the web site up read the pamplet and it is a rich mans sport to hunt there. They have secured 29,000 acres, quite a bit I don't have the actuall numbers in front of me but it was about $4500 to join and a couple of hundred a day or more to hunt.
I don't know if they own the land or have a lease arrangment with the land owners either way and for several reasons I dont' care for this, and hope they go broke.
I am in SW Idaho with lots of open areas and public land to hunt but for how long and what about areas of the country with not much or no puplic land. Is this happening all over? My guess this is just the begining.

[Art Eatman]

samsmix, I can show you places in the southeast where you absolutely cannot stalk. The undergrowth is just puredee too dense. Unless you're in old-growth forest, you can't see ten feet. I think of the riverbottom jungles along the lower Appalachicola River, and some timber-company land east of Tallahassee...

I can show you vast areas in the Texas brush country where, if you try to stalk, you'll wind up nekkid as a jaybird by day's end: Cactus, mesquite, catclaw, blackthorn acacia...I've killed deer in that country that had almost a total layer of thorns under the skin of their forelegs. You peel the skin back on the lower leg, and it's almost completely black from the mesquite and cactus thorns.

But I ain't in the bidness of rainin' on other folks' parades...

Art

[rbernie]

But I have NEVER had my honor called into question as it invariably would be if I had shot deer in an enclosure or over bait.

I see little moral difference between the guy who plants lots of red oak and apple trees and puts out deer forage seed in the clearings and the guy who uses a corn feeder. I may not hunt over a feeder but I'm not about to call anyone on using bait, since the line between using bait and not is very very fine indeed. Why is some bait (acorns and apples and forage) OK but corn feeders are not?

Secondly - at what point does a high fence enclosure cease to be considered fair chase? A hundred acres? Five hundred acres? A thousand acres? Two thousand acres? I'm certainly not going to look at a guy who still hunts on a thousand acre high fence ranch and tell him that he's really not hunting simply because he's chosen to manage his land in part via the use of high fences. I still hunt on a high fence ranch that's about 1600 acres in size. I can fully attest to the fact that it's most definitely 'fair chase', high fence or not.