3-D Printers

Smit · February 24, 2013, 04:17 PM

Folks,

I recently read an interesting article in regards to 3-D printers. Although I am not completely familiar with them, they sure seem like they are going to have a big impact down the road. What does this have to do with handguns?
Well,
The author of the article discussed how it was relatively easy to obtain one and learn the functions. Also, people have started trying to construct pistols using the plastic materials for parts. Granted they didn't work very well and/or broke after the first shot, still very interesting to think it may be possible to build a pistol in one's basement in the near future. Thoughts?

ScottRiqui · February 24, 2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

still very interesting to think it may be possible to build a pistol in one's basement in the near future.

It's possible to build a pistol in one's basement today, and has been for decades.

3-D printing won't really change the landscape of gun production until the price of the printers that are capable of making firearm-quality parts drops down enough to make their use widespread. Right now, they cost more than the conventional machine tools you would need to make a pistol. True, the learning curve for a 3-D printer isn't as steep when you can download specifications and computer-control programs for the parts you want, but making a simple firearm in a machine shop isn't rocket surgery, either.

stargazer65 · February 24, 2013, 04:43 PM

Yes, it does work:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/02/...-new-gun-laws/

**Mike Irwin** · February 24, 2013, 05:25 PM

In my opinion, this thing about 3-D printers is COMPLETELY bogus when it comes to firearms, unless they develop one that prints in heat treated metals.

Otherwise, it's easier to make a functioning firearm out of scrap metal.

AK103K · February 24, 2013, 06:06 PM

I want one that prints loaded ammo by the case.

TripHlx · February 24, 2013, 06:17 PM

The Makerbot printers range around the $2000 mark, and I think it's about $50 per spool of the plastic printing material. 3-D printing of metal parts is possible right now with EXTREMELY expensive printers that use layer sintering of powdered metals. Not sure how far that particular method has come though.

ClydeFrog · February 24, 2013, 06:38 PM

I saw a media report on the website; www.myfoxorlando.com about 3D digital images & machines that could in the near future, use CAD/lasers to create polymer weapons.
There are a lot of issues to work out; ammunition, engineering, R&D, etc.
The reporter did bring up the slick polymer firearm actor John Malkovich uses against Clint Eastwood's tough guy US Secret Service agent in the 1993 action thriller; In The Line of Fire, www.imfdb.org .

It's a interesting concept but its still decades away.

ClydeFrog

Luger_carbine · February 24, 2013, 07:13 PM

The technology to make a 1911 is over 100 years old, and quality steel is not hard to obtain.

As interesting as the 3-D printing technology is, the technology that modern metal lathes utilize is more amazing.

For some reason 3D printing has piqued the interest of computer and Internet geeks but anyone who can learn how to make parts out of polymer can make parts out of metal. Black market gun shops will open up if ever the United States flat out prohibits firearms.

Japle · February 24, 2013, 08:56 PM

You can't print a working spring. You can't print steel. You can't print anything with moving parts unless you print the parts separately.

It's a TV gimmick now. Someday, maybe, but not now.

silvrjeepr · February 24, 2013, 09:07 PM

I would be more impressed with a Cnc ultra precision boring/engraving device on the cheap. Maybe someday...

Luger_carbine · February 24, 2013, 09:08 PM

You have to remember that when we're dealing with anti-gun politicians, we're dealing with morons.

The same people who thought and some who still think that putting nylon over lead bullets creates armor piercing bullets, the same people who thought and some still think that "plastic" guns can evade metal detectors, the same people who still do think that certain rifles are capable of shooting down commercial jets in and around airports (I heard that claim just a month ago) and of course in one case we're dealing with at least one politician who believes that Guam might tip over if too many Marines got on it.

So anyone who knows anything about firearms knows that an all-polymer firearm isn't going to work, but your average anti-gun politician sees a computer geek holding a plastic AR-15 replica that he "printed" in his bedroom,

and they are going to freak out.

ScottRiqui · February 24, 2013, 09:19 PM

Quote:

I would be more impressed with a Cnc ultra precision boring/engraving device on the cheap. Maybe someday...

Exactly. With a little bit of practice and a supply of good stock to feed the machine, you can make guns or whatever else using someone else's program to run the CNC machine, just like what's being proposed with the 3-D printers.

The difference is, you can make a durable, functional firearm with the CNC technology that's available *today*.

ClydeFrog · February 24, 2013, 10:25 PM

I read the non fiction book by the USMC Scout-Sniper in OIF(Iraq). I think it was Sniper or Sniper-something. The author, a senior NCO, wrote that US military snipers are trained to disable aircraft. Using large caliber long range rifles; .300 Win Magnum, .338 Lapua, .50BMG etc.
He also said he could not go into details due to OPSEC(security reasons).
It seems valid that you could ground or damage an aircraft on the airstrip but it would take a ADA(air defense) system or weapon(stinger, RPG-07, SAM) to bring down a aircraft in the air.

Clyde
PS: bright laser aimers or strobes would do more damage. It's part of a Tom Clancy novel storyline(with CIA officer "John Clark").
Several morons in my metro area have been arrested for waving bright laser pointers at LE helicopters. One was a security guard age; 29.

Nathan · February 25, 2013, 05:37 AM

I have used 3D printers quite a bit at work.

You are going to have 4 basic issues:
1) the material printed is pretty weak plastic on the affordable machines. You are not printing Glocks. You are printing something much weaker. Not sure if it is weak due to printing, or just the material properties. It works great for prototyping and even testing low strength products. Slightly better materials can be printed out of the $100k+ machines.

2) You only have material strength in one plane. Across the layers, it is super weak. This is because you only have the bonded strength across the grain.

3) Surface finish is pretty rough. I tried to make calipers once, but i had to handwork a lot to make them slide or read right!

4) You $10000 plus to buy the most basic machine. You need $100's for each print cartridge. Last, the one I kept going need service every 3 months.

I think I could have printed AR mags that would work, maybe a lower. No way I'm printing a working 1911 or Glock. You could probably design some shotgun pressure zip gun that uses 410 shotshells at reduced pressure. Zip guns are probably easier to make with common plumbing materials!

hardworker · February 25, 2013, 06:03 AM

I know they can be used to make shapes, but can they make a spring? I don't see how they could ever make a spring out of plastic. Without springs, a gun won't work. And I don't think they've ever made a completely plastic gun, only certain parts. I'd be surprised if they had made a barrel.

BoogieMan · February 25, 2013, 07:11 AM

One of my buddies has a stratasys sytem (http://www.stratasys.com/Products/Overview.aspx. )We have made gears that mesh, a hand with hinges, even a daddy long legs. The material when don would remind you of the styrofoam balls you made planets from in preschool. You could make a mechanically working 1911 less springs in the machine with no problem. It would never fire without steel hammer and firing pin.
The metal 3-d printer that someone else mentioned would make a part with similar texture. They glue powdered metal in levels .002-.005 thick and build up layer after layer in 2-d. The layers when stacked make a 3-d part. From there they put them in a heat treating oven and sinter the particles of steel together. What you end up with resembles a investment casting (aka-lost wax, MIM).

You could do all that and spend thousands $$, hundreds of hours learning how to run CAD, the printer, and heat treating. Or go to the hardware store pickup some pipe fitting and put a shotgun shell inside. For under $20 and an hour of your time.

loose_holster_dan · February 25, 2013, 07:38 AM

i've personally used one. i know it cost $4000. it took 13hrs to build a model that was not very complex and only about 8x8x5. The quality was very poor. i could have pressed down with my palm on the table and turned it into 10x10x3. i can only imagine the cost of a 3d printer that would actually turn out a decent, high tolerance, high density part.

cecILL · February 25, 2013, 08:13 AM

Price will come down, quality will come up. The first VHS/Beta machines were north of $2000.00, a color printer, 1000.00. So what if a printed AR15 lower will only last a couple hundred rounds. You print off another one and swap it out.

BoogieMan · February 25, 2013, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Price will come down, quality will come up. The first VHS/Beta machines were north of $2000.00, a color printer, 1000.00. So what if a printed AR15 lower will only last a couple hundred rounds. You print off another one and swap it out.

3-D printers have been around for at least 20 years. Any of the "plastic" printers would have a catastrofic failure 1st shot, if you could get the lower to hold together for assembly.

Newton24b · February 25, 2013, 07:21 PM

even the highest quality plastic autos use reingforceing steel/aluminum alloy internal skeletons for strength and durability.

the cost to do it right is way way out of the average person. the poeple who could afford to do it, are in the income bracket that is taking guns away from us..

mayosligo · February 25, 2013, 07:25 PM

Yeah. The idea that you can make a fully functioning and lasting firearm and magazine is possible to some extent but the durability at this point is questionable. The stories are adding to the gun fear hype that the media wants to promote.

RickB · February 25, 2013, 08:17 PM

Wouldn't the printer be more valuable in making a mold for casting, than trying to actually print the final part? I mean, using a printed, plastic part that is used to create a mold for a normal lost-wax style casting?

steveNChunter · February 25, 2013, 08:26 PM

Maybe the next invention will be a 3D printer with time machine capability that can print me out an original NIB Colt Peacemaker!

Nathan · February 25, 2013, 09:53 PM

IMO, your time would be better spent investment casting with the lost wax process and a basic injection press. Maybe a 3d printer that makes wax models is what we need!

Justice06RR · February 26, 2013, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Price will come down, quality will come up. The first VHS/Beta machines were north of $2000.00, a color printer, 1000.00. So what if a printed AR15 lower will only last a couple hundred rounds. You print off another one and swap it out.

A vhs or printer is not the same as a quality 3D printer or CNC machine. An ink printer is not meant to produce sturdy products, and a vhs doesn't even print anything. A $10,000+ CNC machine will not come down in price to $2k or even $500 where your average joe can afford to buy one.

I think that is beside the point anyway. The issue is making durable products that will last more than just a few rounds. Even more important is that barrels, slides, and springs need to be made from steel or aluminum--not plastic or polymer. I would not want to have to replace a broken gun/part every few rounds anyway; that is just not reasonable

As far as the benefits of 3D printing goes, they are probably limited to magazines and lower receivers only.

February 24, 2013, 04:17 PM	#1
Smit Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2012 Posts: 335	3-D Printers Folks, I recently read an interesting article in regards to 3-D printers. Although I am not completely familiar with them, they sure seem like they are going to have a big impact down the road. What does this have to do with handguns? Well, The author of the article discussed how it was relatively easy to obtain one and learn the functions. Also, people have started trying to construct pistols using the plastic materials for parts. Granted they didn't work very well and/or broke after the first shot, still very interesting to think it may be possible to build a pistol in one's basement in the near future. Thoughts? __________________ "Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."

February 24, 2013, 04:43 PM	#3
stargazer65 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 761	Yes, it does work: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/02/...-new-gun-laws/ __________________ "I assert that nothing ever comes to pass without a cause." Jonathan Edwards

February 24, 2013, 05:25 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,382	In my opinion, this thing about 3-D printers is COMPLETELY bogus when it comes to firearms, unless they develop one that prints in heat treated metals. Otherwise, it's easier to make a functioning firearm out of scrap metal. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 24, 2013, 06:17 PM	#6
TripHlx Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2011 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 110	The Makerbot printers range around the $2000 mark, and I think it's about $50 per spool of the plastic printing material. 3-D printing of metal parts is possible right now with EXTREMELY expensive printers that use layer sintering of powdered metals. Not sure how far that particular method has come though. __________________ "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for." - Clint Smith

February 24, 2013, 06:38 PM	#7
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	MyfoxOrlando.com, In The Line of Fire... I saw a media report on the website; www.myfoxorlando.com about 3D digital images & machines that could in the near future, use CAD/lasers to create polymer weapons. There are a lot of issues to work out; ammunition, engineering, R&D, etc. The reporter did bring up the slick polymer firearm actor John Malkovich uses against Clint Eastwood's tough guy US Secret Service agent in the 1993 action thriller; In The Line of Fire, www.imfdb.org . It's a interesting concept but its still decades away. ClydeFrog

February 24, 2013, 06:06 PM	#5
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I want one that prints loaded ammo by the case.

February 24, 2013, 07:13 PM	#8
Luger_carbine Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2012 Posts: 389	I don't see why all the buzz about polymer The technology to make a 1911 is over 100 years old, and quality steel is not hard to obtain. As interesting as the 3-D printing technology is, the technology that modern metal lathes utilize is more amazing. For some reason 3D printing has piqued the interest of computer and Internet geeks but anyone who can learn how to make parts out of polymer can make parts out of metal. Black market gun shops will open up if ever the United States flat out prohibits firearms.

February 24, 2013, 08:56 PM	#9
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	You can't print a working spring. You can't print steel. You can't print anything with moving parts unless you print the parts separately. It's a TV gimmick now. Someday, maybe, but not now.

February 24, 2013, 09:07 PM	#10
silvrjeepr Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Posts: 213	3-D Printers I would be more impressed with a Cnc ultra precision boring/engraving device on the cheap. Maybe someday...

February 24, 2013, 09:08 PM	#11
Luger_carbine Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2012 Posts: 389	You have to remember that when we're dealing with anti-gun politicians, we're dealing with morons. The same people who thought and some who still think that putting nylon over lead bullets creates armor piercing bullets, the same people who thought and some still think that "plastic" guns can evade metal detectors, the same people who still do think that certain rifles are capable of shooting down commercial jets in and around airports (I heard that claim just a month ago) and of course in one case we're dealing with at least one politician who believes that Guam might tip over if too many Marines got on it. So anyone who knows anything about firearms knows that an all-polymer firearm isn't going to work, but your average anti-gun politician sees a computer geek holding a plastic AR-15 replica that he "printed" in his bedroom, and they are going to freak out.

February 24, 2013, 10:25 PM	#13
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	aircraft... I read the non fiction book by the USMC Scout-Sniper in OIF(Iraq). I think it was Sniper or Sniper-something. The author, a senior NCO, wrote that US military snipers are trained to disable aircraft. Using large caliber long range rifles; .300 Win Magnum, .338 Lapua, .50BMG etc. He also said he could not go into details due to OPSEC(security reasons). It seems valid that you could ground or damage an aircraft on the airstrip but it would take a ADA(air defense) system or weapon(stinger, RPG-07, SAM) to bring down a aircraft in the air. Clyde PS: bright laser aimers or strobes would do more damage. It's part of a Tom Clancy novel storyline(with CIA officer "John Clark"). Several morons in my metro area have been arrested for waving bright laser pointers at LE helicopters. One was a security guard age; 29.

February 25, 2013, 05:37 AM	#14
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	I have used 3D printers quite a bit at work. You are going to have 4 basic issues: 1) the material printed is pretty weak plastic on the affordable machines. You are not printing Glocks. You are printing something much weaker. Not sure if it is weak due to printing, or just the material properties. It works great for prototyping and even testing low strength products. Slightly better materials can be printed out of the $100k+ machines. 2) You only have material strength in one plane. Across the layers, it is super weak. This is because you only have the bonded strength across the grain. 3) Surface finish is pretty rough. I tried to make calipers once, but i had to handwork a lot to make them slide or read right! 4) You $10000 plus to buy the most basic machine. You need $100's for each print cartridge. Last, the one I kept going need service every 3 months. I think I could have printed AR mags that would work, maybe a lower. No way I'm printing a working 1911 or Glock. You could probably design some shotgun pressure zip gun that uses 410 shotshells at reduced pressure. Zip guns are probably easier to make with common plumbing materials! Last edited by Nathan; February 25, 2013 at 06:17 AM.

February 25, 2013, 06:03 AM	#15
hardworker Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2010 Posts: 820	I know they can be used to make shapes, but can they make a spring? I don't see how they could ever make a spring out of plastic. Without springs, a gun won't work. And I don't think they've ever made a completely plastic gun, only certain parts. I'd be surprised if they had made a barrel.

February 25, 2013, 07:11 AM	#16
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	One of my buddies has a stratasys sytem (http://www.stratasys.com/Products/Overview.aspx. )We have made gears that mesh, a hand with hinges, even a daddy long legs. The material when don would remind you of the styrofoam balls you made planets from in preschool. You could make a mechanically working 1911 less springs in the machine with no problem. It would never fire without steel hammer and firing pin. The metal 3-d printer that someone else mentioned would make a part with similar texture. They glue powdered metal in levels .002-.005 thick and build up layer after layer in 2-d. The layers when stacked make a 3-d part. From there they put them in a heat treating oven and sinter the particles of steel together. What you end up with resembles a investment casting (aka-lost wax, MIM). You could do all that and spend thousands $$, hundreds of hours learning how to run CAD, the printer, and heat treating. Or go to the hardware store pickup some pipe fitting and put a shotgun shell inside. For under $20 and an hour of your time. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

February 25, 2013, 07:38 AM	#17
loose_holster_dan Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 2,461	i've personally used one. i know it cost $4000. it took 13hrs to build a model that was not very complex and only about 8x8x5. The quality was very poor. i could have pressed down with my palm on the table and turned it into 10x10x3. i can only imagine the cost of a 3d printer that would actually turn out a decent, high tolerance, high density part. __________________ Favorite range gun for the money - CZ 75B or STI Spartan V 9mm Go-to carry setup - Walther PPS or PPQ in FIST kydex holster 1AK Favorite semi-auto design - HK P7 "A Sig is like a lightsaber - not as clumsy or random as a Glock."

February 25, 2013, 08:13 AM	#18
cecILL Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: central IL Posts: 769	Price will come down, quality will come up. The first VHS/Beta machines were north of $2000.00, a color printer, 1000.00. So what if a printed AR15 lower will only last a couple hundred rounds. You print off another one and swap it out.

February 25, 2013, 07:21 PM	#20
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	even the highest quality plastic autos use reingforceing steel/aluminum alloy internal skeletons for strength and durability. the cost to do it right is way way out of the average person. the poeple who could afford to do it, are in the income bracket that is taking guns away from us..

February 25, 2013, 07:25 PM	#21
mayosligo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 301	3-D Printers Yeah. The idea that you can make a fully functioning and lasting firearm and magazine is possible to some extent but the durability at this point is questionable. The stories are adding to the gun fear hype that the media wants to promote.

February 25, 2013, 08:17 PM	#22
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Wouldn't the printer be more valuable in making a mold for casting, than trying to actually print the final part? I mean, using a printed, plastic part that is used to create a mold for a normal lost-wax style casting?

February 25, 2013, 08:26 PM	#23
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Maybe the next invention will be a 3D printer with time machine capability that can print me out an original NIB Colt Peacemaker! __________________ DEO VINDICE

February 25, 2013, 09:53 PM	#24
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	IMO, your time would be better spent investment casting with the lost wax process and a basic injection press. Maybe a 3d printer that makes wax models is what we need!