10.5" SBH not grouping? Need advice

SARuger · August 29, 2015, 08:16 AM

I have cross posted this. I'm looking for any answers.

A little history;

I picked up this SBH from a friend in financial trouble a little over a year ago. Its a low round count, less than 20 when I got it, and had a Burris 2x w/Leupold base. I gave a whopping $375 for it! It was a good deal and I helped a friend out in a bad way in the spur of the moment when he needed it. I have owned three of these revolvers over the years. My two previous ones were the blued versions. Lost my last one in a divorce :-(

When I got this gun I took the scope off of it and stuck the scope in a drawer. I prefer iron sights as most of the deer shots I take are less than 50yds. I checked the gun for accuracy shortly after I bought it from a bench and it grouped good at 50yds off a rest and shot at a paper plate at 75yds free hand and hit 6 for 6. Plenty good enough for deer.

I didn't get to hunt last year as I worked all the time recouping from my recent divorce.

So this year things are looking up and I decided to get the SBH ready. I changed the rear sight to a peep made by Warren. My eyes work better with ghost rings now.

As I sighted in the ghost ring I noticed the gun would not group. I blamed a ammo change(I don't reload) as I had switched to Hornady 240g JHP from Winchester 240g JSP. I blamed that and switched back.

I also had the gun gone over by a reputable local smith, no issues were found. He measured things and said it should shoot just fine.

A trip to the range assured me its the gun.

At 25yds on a rest;

I could free hand shoot this gun at 75yds last year better than that.

No leading or copper fouling in the barrel either.

I want to get it right, I don't want to sell it off, it has meaning to me since it was my first firearm purchase after the divorce. Help me fix it!

buck460XVR · August 29, 2015, 08:47 AM

Nothing has changed but the sights on the gun? That's where I would look first, either they are not secure or your eyes do not like them.

SARuger · August 29, 2015, 09:47 AM

For some reason I can't "quote" on this forum

Buck, the sights are tight. All I changed was the sight blade, see directions here; Warren ghost ring installation

I agree though, If I'm "aiming" in the same spot and the rounds are hitting a different place each time, something is moving.

I will say this, I get a lot of debris back into my face when I shoot this gun. I would never shoot it without eye protection. I do not see signs of it shaving rounds, the primers are struck dead center, it has some normal play in the cylinder.

I picked a new one up at my LGS and it feels about the same. The smith agreed it seemed "normal" to him. The gun functions fine

jglsprings · August 29, 2015, 09:58 AM

like buck says...

Quote:

your eyes do not like them.

this is my first place to look...

I always thought ghost rings were for close up / fast work? No long range - peeps would be the long range option (for me anyway).

unless you used the barrel to pry the old site off the gun - and you said you went back to the "good shooting ammo" - the gun really is the same except for the sites...

Now - and I hate to do this one... you may be getting older and your eyes may be much different than they were last year - that has happened to me... that's another thing that may have changed too...

Put the old sites back - see if it goes back to "grouping"...

P.S.

I understand about the "post divorce" firearm. I have a 375 H&H that was my gift to me after my divorce.

SARuger · August 29, 2015, 10:13 AM

Well I'm 50 but I can shoot pretty good still. Not as good as I use to but good enough to hunt. I was shooting my Security Six 4" yesterday and with the same sights on it, drilling the bulls-eye at 50yds, from a rest, shooting .38 target ammo.

I can put the blade in and it takes less than a minute to do so, but I seriously like ghost rings and peeps better. I stalk hunt deer so I sometimes jump them up close in the brush and the ghost rings work well for that. If I can't get this SBH right I will be hunting with a 20g and buckshot this year.

jglsprings · August 29, 2015, 10:24 AM

Hmmmm...

Curiouser and curiouser.

Are the apertures the same size on both guns?

I understand the preference to peeps and ghosts as we pass that magic "50"...

</rant>
I HATE GETTING OLD
</end rant>

str8tshot · August 29, 2015, 10:51 AM

Is it possible there is slight damage to the crown of the barrel? That would explain the erratic POI.

buck460XVR · August 29, 2015, 11:15 AM

What part of the gun are you positioning on the rest? I've found that resting the barrel of my long piped revolvers on the rest itself leads to large groups and that using the front of the frame as a resting point works much better.

Again, if everything else is the same as when the gun was accurate except for the sights, there's no much of a question to what the problem is. I too would put the scope back on just to make sure. Even tho the rear ring is adjusted way off to one side, the groups show something else is the problem. You may be losing focus on the front sight due to the large aperture of the rear sight or your eyes cannot focus properly on the front sight due to the length of the barrel. If your other firearm with a Ghost ring has a significantly shorter barrel, it may be that much closer and easier to keep in focus with the rear ring. The rear sight needs to disappear as you prepare to shoot.

SARuger · August 29, 2015, 01:23 PM

Once again, I can't quote on here;

The crown looks good, see barrel pic above

Yes my SS 4" has the exact same size ghost ring on it

Yes I'm resting on the barrel as I always have, actually under the ejector housing.

The rear ring is off the left in the pic above as I had not sighted it in yet for that pic. Its almost dead center now. Regardless if I aim in the same spot it should hit/group in the same spot. Even if its not zeroed

MrBorland · August 29, 2015, 02:17 PM

AFAIK, a peep works best when it's close to your eye, as a rifle-mounted peep sight. On a handgun...no so much (which is likely why you rarely see them so equipped). My bet is you'd do better by simply re-installing the rear blade.

gyvel · August 29, 2015, 02:27 PM

Quote:

The crown looks good, see barrel pic above

That picture is too blurry to tell anything. I can see a dark spot at about 12:00, but I can't tell what it is.

bamaranger · August 30, 2015, 12:57 AM

I'd put the standard sights back on it and see what happens. Simple logic says it should be the sight change.

I can't imagine using a "peep" anywhere except on the receiver/tang of a long gun, but that's me.

Your comment about "spitting" seems interesting. When shooting for group, I'd try one chamber.....repeatedly, and see if that helps group size. Could it be the revolver is out of time on a cylinder or two?

My Dad had one of the long tom SBH's, and we could bust clay birds on the berm at 100 plus a couple.

stagpanther · August 30, 2015, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Your comment about "spitting" seems interesting. When shooting for group, I'd try one chamber.....repeatedly, and see if that helps group size. Could it be the revolver is out of time on a cylinder or two?

That was my thought initially--especially since he mentioned resting the gun on the ejector (cylinder pin?). Didn't see the caliber mentioned--but the blackhawk in magnums that I've shot off a rest with the barrel resting on them will blow back all kinds of stuff--if shooting off a soft "bean bag" a magnum can blow the bag up (yes I was stupid enough to try that at the range with my 44 mag SBH and covered me and the shooters next to me with beans lol). Otherwise--I'd say it has to be the sights (which BTW looks like a nice set-up) Is it possible either the front or back could be loose in some way? If your groupings are off--maybe there is a pattern to the groupings that might clue.

Quote:

Now - and I hate to do this one... you may be getting older and your eyes may be much different than they were last year - that has happened to me... that's another thing that may have changed too...

Agree with this too--my eyes have an increasingly difficult time with any kind of fixed iron system each year as my vision noticeable deteriorates.

DaleA · August 30, 2015, 02:26 AM

Got a trusted friend you could have shoot it?

mete · August 30, 2015, 02:27 AM

That's not a "ghost ring" A ghost ring is a thin ring perhaps with 1/8-3/16" ID. To operate properly the ring must be close to the eye !!' When close to the eye the eye automatically centers the ring to the eye ! Ghost ring sights on a rifle are fast and accurate. They work fine on a shtgun also. But not on a handgun since the sight is not near the eye !!

Mobuck · August 30, 2015, 05:52 AM

"AFAIK, a peep works best when it's close to your eye, as a rifle-mounted peep sight. On a handgun...no so much (which is likely why you rarely see them so equipped). My bet is you'd do better by simply re-installing the rear blade."

A "peep" that far from your eye is not effective-especially one so large. Chalk it up as one of those ideas that didn't pan out and return to the blade or optic.

SARuger · August 30, 2015, 07:38 AM

I will switch it out today and head back to the range next Friday. Its a simple thing to do. Just expensive to zero at a dollar a round. I need to get my brass to my cousin and get some of his reloads and try those.

SARuger · August 30, 2015, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Got a trusted friend you could have shoot it?

My cousin is a Ruger collector and expert. he lives 2 hours away but it may be worth the diesel to run over there and get him to put his hands on it. He has some reloads he wants me to try as well.

jglsprings · August 30, 2015, 08:47 AM

Quote:

My cousin is a Ruger collector and expert. he lives 2 hours away but it may be worth the diesel to run over there and get him to put his hands on it. He has some reloads he wants me to try as well.

Someone else to look a it is always good. Changing ammo is a bad idea as that introduces another variable into the mix.

Good luck with it, let us know what happens. Working through a "troubled child" is one of the fun things of a shooting hobby.

SARuger · August 30, 2015, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Someone else to look a it is always good. Changing ammo is a bad idea as that introduces another variable into the mix.

Good luck with it, let us know what happens. Working through a "troubled child" is one of the fun things of a shooting hobby.

I won't try the new ammo until I get it sorted out.

SARuger · August 30, 2015, 11:07 PM

My plan is to switch out the rear sight blade and go back to the range on Friday.

I took some better pics of the crown and it looks good to me. From 5 different angles;

TimSr · August 31, 2015, 09:49 AM

Quote:

What part of the gun are you positioning on the rest? I've found that resting the barrel of my long piped revolvers on the rest itself leads to large groups and that using the front of the frame as a resting point works much better.

That's been my experience as well. I only rest the butt of the gun on a bag of lead shot.

SARuger · September 5, 2015, 11:37 AM

Something isn't right with this gun. After changing back the rear sight blade and using the frame for a rest its still shooting all over the place at 25yds. It's going back to Ruger.

I hope I get this one back because it means a lot to me.

Paul105 · September 5, 2015, 04:37 PM

One last thought, check to make sure that all grip frame screws are tight. I noticed that you have a Hogue grip on the gun that covers the bottom frame screws. After removing the grip and tightening all the frame screws, make sure the grip screw is also tight and the grip isn't moving.

Paul

SARuger · September 5, 2015, 06:43 PM

Thanks Paul, I did check everything with the grip off.

August 29, 2015, 08:16 AM	#1
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	10.5" SBH not grouping? Need advice I have cross posted this. I'm looking for any answers. A little history; I picked up this SBH from a friend in financial trouble a little over a year ago. Its a low round count, less than 20 when I got it, and had a Burris 2x w/Leupold base. I gave a whopping $375 for it! It was a good deal and I helped a friend out in a bad way in the spur of the moment when he needed it. I have owned three of these revolvers over the years. My two previous ones were the blued versions. Lost my last one in a divorce :-( When I got this gun I took the scope off of it and stuck the scope in a drawer. I prefer iron sights as most of the deer shots I take are less than 50yds. I checked the gun for accuracy shortly after I bought it from a bench and it grouped good at 50yds off a rest and shot at a paper plate at 75yds free hand and hit 6 for 6. Plenty good enough for deer. I didn't get to hunt last year as I worked all the time recouping from my recent divorce. So this year things are looking up and I decided to get the SBH ready. I changed the rear sight to a peep made by Warren. My eyes work better with ghost rings now. As I sighted in the ghost ring I noticed the gun would not group. I blamed a ammo change(I don't reload) as I had switched to Hornady 240g JHP from Winchester 240g JSP. I blamed that and switched back. I also had the gun gone over by a reputable local smith, no issues were found. He measured things and said it should shoot just fine. A trip to the range assured me its the gun. At 25yds on a rest; I could free hand shoot this gun at 75yds last year better than that. No leading or copper fouling in the barrel either. I want to get it right, I don't want to sell it off, it has meaning to me since it was my first firearm purchase after the divorce. Help me fix it! Last edited by SARuger; August 29, 2015 at 08:31 AM.

August 29, 2015, 10:24 AM	#6
jglsprings Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 1,827	Hmmmm... Curiouser and curiouser. Are the apertures the same size on both guns? I understand the preference to peeps and ghosts as we pass that magic "50"... </rant> I HATE GETTING OLD </end rant> __________________ Let's eat Grandma. Let's eat, Grandma. Commas save lives...

August 30, 2015, 12:57 AM	#12
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	sights I'd put the standard sights back on it and see what happens. Simple logic says it should be the sight change. I can't imagine using a "peep" anywhere except on the receiver/tang of a long gun, but that's me. Your comment about "spitting" seems interesting. When shooting for group, I'd try one chamber.....repeatedly, and see if that helps group size. Could it be the revolver is out of time on a cylinder or two? My Dad had one of the long tom SBH's, and we could bust clay birds on the berm at 100 plus a couple.

August 30, 2015, 02:27 AM	#15
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	That's not a "ghost ring" A ghost ring is a thin ring perhaps with 1/8-3/16" ID. To operate properly the ring must be close to the eye !!' When close to the eye the eye automatically centers the ring to the eye ! Ghost ring sights on a rifle are fast and accurate. They work fine on a shtgun also. But not on a handgun since the sight is not near the eye !! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

August 29, 2015, 08:47 AM	#2
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	Nothing has changed but the sights on the gun? That's where I would look first, either they are not secure or your eyes do not like them.

August 29, 2015, 09:47 AM	#3
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	For some reason I can't "quote" on this forum Buck, the sights are tight. All I changed was the sight blade, see directions here; Warren ghost ring installation I agree though, If I'm "aiming" in the same spot and the rounds are hitting a different place each time, something is moving. I will say this, I get a lot of debris back into my face when I shoot this gun. I would never shoot it without eye protection. I do not see signs of it shaving rounds, the primers are struck dead center, it has some normal play in the cylinder. I picked a new one up at my LGS and it feels about the same. The smith agreed it seemed "normal" to him. The gun functions fine

August 29, 2015, 10:13 AM	#5
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Well I'm 50 but I can shoot pretty good still. Not as good as I use to but good enough to hunt. I was shooting my Security Six 4" yesterday and with the same sights on it, drilling the bulls-eye at 50yds, from a rest, shooting .38 target ammo. I can put the blade in and it takes less than a minute to do so, but I seriously like ghost rings and peeps better. I stalk hunt deer so I sometimes jump them up close in the brush and the ghost rings work well for that. If I can't get this SBH right I will be hunting with a 20g and buckshot this year.

August 29, 2015, 10:51 AM	#7
str8tshot Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2014 Posts: 102	Is it possible there is slight damage to the crown of the barrel? That would explain the erratic POI.

August 29, 2015, 11:15 AM	#8
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	What part of the gun are you positioning on the rest? I've found that resting the barrel of my long piped revolvers on the rest itself leads to large groups and that using the front of the frame as a resting point works much better. Again, if everything else is the same as when the gun was accurate except for the sights, there's no much of a question to what the problem is. I too would put the scope back on just to make sure. Even tho the rear ring is adjusted way off to one side, the groups show something else is the problem. You may be losing focus on the front sight due to the large aperture of the rear sight or your eyes cannot focus properly on the front sight due to the length of the barrel. If your other firearm with a Ghost ring has a significantly shorter barrel, it may be that much closer and easier to keep in focus with the rear ring. The rear sight needs to disappear as you prepare to shoot.

August 29, 2015, 01:23 PM	#9
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Once again, I can't quote on here; The crown looks good, see barrel pic above Yes my SS 4" has the exact same size ghost ring on it Yes I'm resting on the barrel as I always have, actually under the ejector housing. The rear ring is off the left in the pic above as I had not sighted it in yet for that pic. Its almost dead center now. Regardless if I aim in the same spot it should hit/group in the same spot. Even if its not zeroed

August 29, 2015, 02:17 PM	#10
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	AFAIK, a peep works best when it's close to your eye, as a rifle-mounted peep sight. On a handgun...no so much (which is likely why you rarely see them so equipped). My bet is you'd do better by simply re-installing the rear blade.

August 30, 2015, 02:26 AM	#14
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Got a trusted friend you could have shoot it?

August 30, 2015, 05:52 AM	#16
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"AFAIK, a peep works best when it's close to your eye, as a rifle-mounted peep sight. On a handgun...no so much (which is likely why you rarely see them so equipped). My bet is you'd do better by simply re-installing the rear blade." A "peep" that far from your eye is not effective-especially one so large. Chalk it up as one of those ideas that didn't pan out and return to the blade or optic.

August 30, 2015, 07:38 AM	#17
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	I will switch it out today and head back to the range next Friday. Its a simple thing to do. Just expensive to zero at a dollar a round. I need to get my brass to my cousin and get some of his reloads and try those.

August 30, 2015, 11:07 PM	#21
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	My plan is to switch out the rear sight blade and go back to the range on Friday. I took some better pics of the crown and it looks good to me. From 5 different angles;

September 5, 2015, 11:37 AM	#23
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Something isn't right with this gun. After changing back the rear sight blade and using the frame for a rest its still shooting all over the place at 25yds. It's going back to Ruger. I hope I get this one back because it means a lot to me.

September 5, 2015, 04:37 PM	#24
Paul105 Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 343	One last thought, check to make sure that all grip frame screws are tight. I noticed that you have a Hogue grip on the gun that covers the bottom frame screws. After removing the grip and tightening all the frame screws, make sure the grip screw is also tight and the grip isn't moving. Paul

September 5, 2015, 06:43 PM	#25
SARuger Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2014 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains of VA Posts: 954	Thanks Paul, I did check everything with the grip off.