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View Poll Results: Are even unarmed people a deadly threat to a pregnant woman? | |||
Yes... | 43 | 75.44% | |
No... | 1 | 1.75% | |
Your question is too vague... | 6 | 10.53% | |
Why do you keep posting these stupid polls that make everyone argue and get threads locked? | 7 | 12.28% | |
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll |
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October 17, 2008, 11:48 AM | #1 |
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Duty To Retreat / Deadly Force, while pregnant?
For those of you who don't know, my wife is pregnant right now (we find out the gender on 10/29 ) and I'm getting more and more protective as she gets larger / more unable to protect herself/the bump.
My question, does pregnancy constitute special circumstances in regards to your duty to retreat, and also what you can consider as deadly force being brought against you? It would only take someone pushing her over the right way, or hitting her in the belly to not only kill the baby, but possibly cause some sort of internal trauma that would be life threatening to her. So can I consider anyone attacking us, even without weapons, as a deadly threat? EDIT: We live in Ohio, which does have a duty to retreat in most circumstances.
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October 17, 2008, 11:51 AM | #2 |
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Just bow up in my wife's presence when she was PG and I was on a heightened readiness... Them gals are special and you can't even describe how I felt about my unborn youngins'
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October 17, 2008, 11:56 AM | #3 |
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Sparks2112 , It depends on what state you live in .
In TN we have a castle doctrine , We have NO duty to retreat Period. Since your wife is with child ( congrats BTW ) her ability to retreat is hindered anyway. Check with your state of residence be absolutely sure . Again congrats to you, Mike |
October 17, 2008, 12:46 PM | #4 | |
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October 17, 2008, 12:51 PM | #5 | |
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October 17, 2008, 01:25 PM | #6 | |
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I voted
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Congratulations on the expected new family member. Care and concern for momma and the bundle of joy is going to be hightened - especially if ythis is the first [experience talking]. Your desire to protect them is normal and comendable, but ... Ask yourself just what threats you are expecting to need to defend from? Why do you think your wife may get punched in the belly - now as well as before you found out she was pregnant? Why do you think anybody is going to attack her at all? If the life you and your now-pregnant wife lead exposes her to belly punches or other threats, you need to get a new life right away. If you are just an over-protective father-to-be then you need to take a chill pill and learn to relax. stay safe. skidmark |
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October 17, 2008, 01:26 PM | #7 |
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Sparks,
The below is based on nothing more than a quick skim of the Ohio statutes & some commonly-understood principles of common law in the US. I'm not a lawyer or a legal expert, so take it for what it's worth. (A quick stop at www.useofforce.us or www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx would probably be useful here.) In Ohio, protecting the life of your unborn child would take equal precedence with protecting any other human life (a quick glance through Ohio's murder statutes showed this), and any reasonable person would believe that any significant physical force against a pregnant woman (such as a punch, blow, or shove) could foreseeably result in harm to the unborn child. So she'd be justified in fearing for her life, or the life of her child, if she was threatened with that level of physical force. Additionally, while you do have a duty to retreat in Ohio, in no case do you have a duty to retreat if you cannot do so in complete safety as judged by the reasonable man standard in the court which will then rule on whether that particular case provided you with a "reasonable" ability to retreat. The individual circumstances, taking into account the entire sequence of events and the surrounding facts, will dictate whether the court finds that retreat was a "reasonable" possibility. In order to get a ruling in your favor, you simply need to show that retreating was not physically possible, or articulate how retreating would have resulted in equal or greater danger to her life or to the life of the unborn child. In the case of your wife, if the doctor has told her, for example, that she must not run (if she has an incompetent cervix or some other related problem) because running would endanger your unborn child's life, then the court would probably find that she had no duty to retreat if it involved running -- since running would endanger the unborn child, based upon her specific circumstances. Again, it would be very dependent upon the exact set of facts in a given instance, and changing one fact anywhere along the line might change the legal outcome. The general rule of thumb is that an innocent citizen is not required to do anything that all that would cause a "reasonable" person to believe she was endangering her child's life, nor would she be required to retreat if she couldn't "reasonably" do so. Hope that helps. pax |
October 17, 2008, 01:58 PM | #8 | |||||
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October 17, 2008, 01:59 PM | #9 |
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Unarmed people could be cause to reasonably believe imminent threat for someone who is NOT pregnant, man or women.
If your a 5' 2" guy whose being assaulted by a 6' 5" guy you may be justified in use of deadly force. If you are accompanying a person who can not retreat with reasonable assurance of safety you may be justified in using deadly force. In NY state the law reads that you have a duty to retreat if it can be done with COMPLETE safety for EVERYONE.
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October 17, 2008, 02:01 PM | #10 | |
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October 17, 2008, 02:06 PM | #11 |
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You have a duty to retreat if it is safe to do so. Your ability to extract yourself from the situation is considered. The law does not require an 85-year-old man with two replacement knees to try to outrun an 18-year-old track star. Nor does it expect a woman who is 9-months pregnant to run a mile and vault over fences.
That said, if a perp is standing outside your wife's car with a knife in his hand and she is inside the car, the law would expect her to drive away (effectively retreating), rather than to get out and shoot the cretin. |
October 17, 2008, 02:17 PM | #12 |
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Well, at least the man's concern for the safety of his unborn child is reasonable, unlike some of the "what if I am attacked by a purple zombie" crap that sometimes appears in this forum.
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October 17, 2008, 02:20 PM | #13 | |
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October 17, 2008, 02:36 PM | #14 |
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I voted for #4, but have to say you're poll is well thought out enough to give me the option.
I think pax nailed the answer for you.
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October 17, 2008, 02:41 PM | #15 | ||
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October 17, 2008, 04:38 PM | #16 | |
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October 17, 2008, 10:46 PM | #17 |
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you missed it this time david.My wife gave birth Sept 4th 2007 to my youngest son and you honestly think i was going to let anyone get near my wife.I don't give a rats butt about anything when it came to her and my unborn son.When she wanted to work i gave her a armed escort to and from the car every day.If we were attacked i would have to say i'll do anything to keep her safe.If all i had were rocks i'de find the biggest one and go for the head.oh and if my wifes sister pulled her hair or slapped her or even threaten her in any way,The so called sister would be leaving with boot up her @#$SS.I did every thing for my wife the whole time she was pregnant,cooked cleaned,rubbed feet,all docters visits,armed escort.call me crazy but nothin is to good for my wife.
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October 18, 2008, 09:33 AM | #18 |
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unarmed people can be a deadly threat to anybody depending on the individual or the multiple individuals.
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October 18, 2008, 09:55 AM | #19 |
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You get into the discussion of disparity of force, or better described as the disparity of the ability to bring force. It is considered that a woman ,when faced by a man, is already in a disparate condition. Her being in a state of advanced pregnancy even more so.
Then there is the justification for homicide. Generally it is to prevent death or serious physical harm to ones self or a third party. I'd say it could be rationalized that since she is pregnant she faces a greater risk of suffering death or serious physical injury. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, there is the fact that a prosecutor is an elected official. Prosecuting a pregnant woman for what the public might perceive as self defense would be political suicide, at least in most jurisdictions. |
October 18, 2008, 11:54 AM | #20 | ||
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October 18, 2008, 12:15 PM | #21 | |
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October 18, 2008, 12:29 PM | #22 | |
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October 18, 2008, 02:07 PM | #23 |
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Sparks,
Most Duty to retreat laws allow retreat IF YOU CAN SAFELY DO SO. They do not expect you to turn your back on an obvious danger. I'd check with a lawyer in your state, but I'm real sure this.
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October 18, 2008, 03:46 PM | #24 | |
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October 18, 2008, 04:33 PM | #25 |
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I will take my lumps with the law later.As i have said before i'm no going to analize a situation to death,while my pregnant wife and i are being assaulted.David if you want to back down and let your wife get assaulted then by all means go right ahead but not me.
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