Need test for load vs accuracy

L. Boscoe · March 22, 2022, 03:33 PM

Since shooting 95% 45acp, I have settled on a bullet shape, one powder, and
the correct OAL for a jam-free shoot.
Today I went to the range and shot the following, all from a rather unsteady wooden shelf.
the following loads, with 200grain copper-coated HP with the following of 231 Winchester powder:
4.0, 4.3, 4.4, and 4.5 grains. All were shot at ten yards at a fluttery (indoor range) paper target. Each 10 shots at a different target.
Result-none! all shot well, the position I had to hold the pistol, a CZ 97E with a
red dot, seemed to make more difference than the groups, which for a geezer,
were ok, not wonderful. About 3 inch groups.
I shot 20 rounds of each load, 30 rounds of the 4.0, and no discernable difference in accuracy.
Obviously I am doing something WRONG?
I am thinking a Ransom rest might help??

**44 AMP** · March 22, 2022, 04:01 PM

A Ransom Rest removes the human factor. This does not change what the pistol and load will do on their own.

Personally, I would be surprised to see any significant change in the accuracy of the loads with such small changes in powder charge, fired from a semi auto pistol.

Additionally, the loads you gave are below the starting loads in my old manuals. Which might make a difference on how well they shoot from your gun.

Shadow9mm · March 22, 2022, 04:31 PM

Only thing I could say would be shoot at 25yds and see if you see any difference.

rodfac · March 22, 2022, 05:17 PM

Quote:

the loads you gave are below the starting load

Yep...try 5.0 - 5.2 grains of 231 and see what you get...it's my standard load for 230 FMJ's and 200 LSWC's. It's a load that's worked with every .45 1911 (probably a dozen between friends & family) I've tried, as well as a pair of S&W M 25-2's (the 1955 target gun). Regards Rod

L. Boscoe · March 22, 2022, 08:34 PM

this post was prompted by an article that recommended velocities of 750 to
800 fps, which the current 4.5 load should achieve.
The reason for the Ransom rest idea was to take my poor skills out of the picture, unfortunately not one available afaik.
I will get the chronograph out to see what velocities i am getting, that needs
doing.
The question still is whether velocities affect accuracy at the short ranges, less than 20 yds, that are currently available at my range. Most say no, even so called "mouse fart" loads should do ok.
Being old and arthritic, higher loads are not appealing. Back during the Covid
early days I got an ammo can of 45 230 fmj- they kick like hell, so much I have to wear a glove to save skin. those are no fun.
more reports after the chrono.

DaleA · March 23, 2022, 02:18 AM

My ideal mythical shooting range would have a Ransom Rest (and a variety of inserts) and a Labradar chronograph (among other amenities).

Since nobody has access to my (mythical) ideal range you might try sitting at a table with bean bags or a rolled-up towel to rest your wrists on while you shoot. I do that to show what my gun/ammo is capable of doing and it shames me to practice harder.

Years ago when I shot in a league almost everyone used a 1911 style .45 ACP and 185 or 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters with just enough Bullseye powder to reliably cycle the action and they were very accurate loads.

Good luck.

jetinteriorguy · March 23, 2022, 06:01 AM

I always test for accuracy just shooting freehand. After all, the human factor is the most important factor influencing accuracy. So to my way of thinking in your case the human factor is pretty consistent since all the loads are pretty much the same. In a case like this I load the heaviest load I’m comfortable with and many times it becomes a standard load for any bullet in that weight range. But my requirements are mainly self defense oriented. As long as I can empty a gun as fast as I can pull the trigger and keep everything in a five inch circle out to ten yards I’m a happy camper. I’m too old and shaky with not so good eyes anymore to do bullseye shooting like my younger days.

L. Boscoe · March 23, 2022, 10:30 AM

Turns out Crawford sells a pistol rest for $31. That is going to be the new
shooting platform to check with groups. From what you guys have said about
loads, it may be I am needing to load a few at 5gr just to be sure of the whole
idea being valuable.

DaleA · March 23, 2022, 11:40 AM

Pistol rests...are we talking about this one? Or something like it?

https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Pist...%2C384&sr=8-15

I'd still probably go with bean/rice/corn bags or a rolled-up towel, but that's just me.

rclark · March 23, 2022, 01:26 PM

Quote:

I always test for accuracy just shooting freehand.

I do too with a caveat. I lean my arm against post (range has an overhang over the pistol/revolver benches supported by posts) and shoot for accuracy. Doing so from the bench just doesn't work as well for me even though I have to use the bench for chronographing. So basically I shoot twice... I shoot the best I can do over the chronograph. Then the 'promising' load(s), I'll go home and load another batch. Finally, the next time out, shoot standing for a validation check.

hooligan1 · March 25, 2022, 04:49 AM

Im currently loading a 230 lrn with 231, Im using 4.7 grains.
With my 25 DA, Im hitting paper at 100 yds .
Now I have shot pistol/rifles all my life but this combo in my pistol seems to really chime together good.
Good luck man finding your load...

L. Boscoe · March 25, 2022, 09:42 AM

What's a DA 25?

hooligan1 · March 25, 2022, 12:29 PM

Smith An Wesson Model 25, Double Action .45 acp revolver.

reddog81 · March 25, 2022, 02:48 PM

I'd guess the CZ 97 is capable of getting 10 shots at 10 yards into 1 large hole with any of those loads. Much deviation from that is going to be due the shooter.

Bart B. · March 27, 2022, 03:46 PM

Accuracy refers to how repeatable the firearm and its ammo are.

Marksmanship refers to how repeatable the human is aiming and firing the arm are.

**Unclenick** · March 27, 2022, 04:37 PM

Using a Hoppe's pistol rest, similar in format to the Caldwell, but steel and with little sandbags on it, I printed a 5-shot 0.37" group at 25 yards with 200-grain Hornady SWC's and 4.2 grains of Bullseye; 1.245" COL. Hand tightened and fitted Gold Cup 1911 with Aimpoint sight. I've posted the group picture previously.

A similar bullet would be the Speer 4475, which is still made, but I haven't seen the Hornady's listed on their site for a while. I have not tried the Sierra Tournament Master or the Hornady HAP, as these lack the SWC paper cutting shoulder. 231/HP38 should match pretty well with about 4.4 grains.

L. Boscoe · April 4, 2022, 04:18 PM

Ok, got the cheap Caldwell plastic rest. Shot 200gr hollow points from Norma, Berry's and extreme. Did not seem to matter whose HP, they all did well. Here's a target, at ten yards, ten shots-Norma was factory loaded, the other two were 4.6gr 231. About as good as I can shoot with iron sights with one eye.
The target is the slow fire 20yd target, about 10 in square.

Shadow9mm · April 4, 2022, 07:32 PM

Good looking target

jetinteriorguy · April 5, 2022, 06:19 AM

Looks like you found a winner to me.

**44 AMP** · April 8, 2022, 03:18 PM

Now do that at 25yds...

L. Boscoe · April 8, 2022, 08:03 PM

Indoors, max is 19yds. It is not very bright, and without a red dot, target is invisible, but that is the plan next time.

March 22, 2022, 03:33 PM	#1
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Need test for load vs accuracy Since shooting 95% 45acp, I have settled on a bullet shape, one powder, and the correct OAL for a jam-free shoot. Today I went to the range and shot the following, all from a rather unsteady wooden shelf. the following loads, with 200grain copper-coated HP with the following of 231 Winchester powder: 4.0, 4.3, 4.4, and 4.5 grains. All were shot at ten yards at a fluttery (indoor range) paper target. Each 10 shots at a different target. Result-none! all shot well, the position I had to hold the pistol, a CZ 97E with a red dot, seemed to make more difference than the groups, which for a geezer, were ok, not wonderful. About 3 inch groups. I shot 20 rounds of each load, 30 rounds of the 4.0, and no discernable difference in accuracy. Obviously I am doing something WRONG? I am thinking a Ransom rest might help??

March 22, 2022, 04:01 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,812	A Ransom Rest removes the human factor. This does not change what the pistol and load will do on their own. Personally, I would be surprised to see any significant change in the accuracy of the loads with such small changes in powder charge, fired from a semi auto pistol. Additionally, the loads you gave are below the starting loads in my old manuals. Which might make a difference on how well they shoot from your gun. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 22, 2022, 04:31 PM	#3
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	Only thing I could say would be shoot at 25yds and see if you see any difference. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

March 22, 2022, 08:34 PM	#5
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Need test for load vs accuracy this post was prompted by an article that recommended velocities of 750 to 800 fps, which the current 4.5 load should achieve. The reason for the Ransom rest idea was to take my poor skills out of the picture, unfortunately not one available afaik. I will get the chronograph out to see what velocities i am getting, that needs doing. The question still is whether velocities affect accuracy at the short ranges, less than 20 yds, that are currently available at my range. Most say no, even so called "mouse fart" loads should do ok. Being old and arthritic, higher loads are not appealing. Back during the Covid early days I got an ammo can of 45 230 fmj- they kick like hell, so much I have to wear a glove to save skin. those are no fun. more reports after the chrono.

March 23, 2022, 10:30 AM	#8
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Need test for load vs accuracy Turns out Crawford sells a pistol rest for $31. That is going to be the new shooting platform to check with groups. From what you guys have said about loads, it may be I am needing to load a few at 5gr just to be sure of the whole idea being valuable.

March 23, 2022, 02:18 AM	#6
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	My ideal mythical shooting range would have a Ransom Rest (and a variety of inserts) and a Labradar chronograph (among other amenities). Since nobody has access to my (mythical) ideal range you might try sitting at a table with bean bags or a rolled-up towel to rest your wrists on while you shoot. I do that to show what my gun/ammo is capable of doing and it shames me to practice harder. Years ago when I shot in a league almost everyone used a 1911 style .45 ACP and 185 or 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters with just enough Bullseye powder to reliably cycle the action and they were very accurate loads. Good luck.

March 23, 2022, 06:01 AM	#7
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,172	I always test for accuracy just shooting freehand. After all, the human factor is the most important factor influencing accuracy. So to my way of thinking in your case the human factor is pretty consistent since all the loads are pretty much the same. In a case like this I load the heaviest load I’m comfortable with and many times it becomes a standard load for any bullet in that weight range. But my requirements are mainly self defense oriented. As long as I can empty a gun as fast as I can pull the trigger and keep everything in a five inch circle out to ten yards I’m a happy camper. I’m too old and shaky with not so good eyes anymore to do bullseye shooting like my younger days.

March 23, 2022, 11:40 AM	#9
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Pistol rests...are we talking about this one? Or something like it? https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Pist...%2C384&sr=8-15 I'd still probably go with bean/rice/corn bags or a rolled-up towel, but that's just me.

March 25, 2022, 04:49 AM	#11
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Im currently loading a 230 lrn with 231, Im using 4.7 grains. With my 25 DA, Im hitting paper at 100 yds . Now I have shot pistol/rifles all my life but this combo in my pistol seems to really chime together good. Good luck man finding your load... __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

March 25, 2022, 09:42 AM	#12
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	need test for load vs accuracy What's a DA 25?

March 25, 2022, 12:29 PM	#13
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Smith An Wesson Model 25, Double Action .45 acp revolver. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

March 25, 2022, 02:48 PM	#14
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	I'd guess the CZ 97 is capable of getting 10 shots at 10 yards into 1 large hole with any of those loads. Much deviation from that is going to be due the shooter.

March 27, 2022, 03:46 PM	#15
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Accuracy refers to how repeatable the firearm and its ammo are. Marksmanship refers to how repeatable the human is aiming and firing the arm are.

March 27, 2022, 04:37 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Using a Hoppe's pistol rest, similar in format to the Caldwell, but steel and with little sandbags on it, I printed a 5-shot 0.37" group at 25 yards with 200-grain Hornady SWC's and 4.2 grains of Bullseye; 1.245" COL. Hand tightened and fitted Gold Cup 1911 with Aimpoint sight. I've posted the group picture previously. A similar bullet would be the Speer 4475, which is still made, but I haven't seen the Hornady's listed on their site for a while. I have not tried the Sierra Tournament Master or the Hornady HAP, as these lack the SWC paper cutting shoulder. 231/HP38 should match pretty well with about 4.4 grains. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 4, 2022, 07:32 PM	#18
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	Good looking target __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

April 5, 2022, 06:19 AM	#19
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,172	Looks like you found a winner to me.

April 8, 2022, 03:18 PM	#20
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,812	Now do that at 25yds... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 8, 2022, 08:03 PM	#21
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	need test for load vs accuracy Indoors, max is 19yds. It is not very bright, and without a red dot, target is invisible, but that is the plan next time.