Justification?

badbob · August 17, 2006, 07:27 PM

Can any LEOs out there justify this?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter...2296783&page=1
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/09/tra....ap/index.html (watch the video)
I would be interested in hearing the excuse for this.

badbob

TheBluesMan · August 17, 2006, 07:58 PM

I don't see how shooting a woman, peacefully protesting, in the back is ever a justifiable shot. The fact that they were using rubber bullets or paintballs or whatever matters not. Both the mayor and Maj. Brooks say the same thing: they're embarassed by the incident and the so-called "training film."

I'll be surprised if a LEO posts anything defending these guys.

osufanboy · August 17, 2006, 08:01 PM

pretty damning. it's when people see this they dislike cops. i know i'll be branded a cop hater/basher/etc - i don't care. they're supposed to protect the public, just as my tagline says, not be enemies of the people.

love it at the end when the sheriff says he should have stopped the gloating... what he means is he wishes there was no recording and they didn't get caught.

Sarge · August 17, 2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

...Miami-area law enforcement officers who were out in force to control protesters demonstrating against a free trade summit...

If you really want an answer to your question, I suggest you call Miami PD, and ask them what agencies were involved. The call each of them and ask them to justify their actions.

The rather broad scope of your inquiry leads me to believe that you expect the LE members of this forum to answer for, or somehow attempt to justify, the actions of those involved in this incident. I can't help you with that, but I can tell you where to get your answer- Florida. Maybe the AG's office?

ISP2605 · August 17, 2006, 08:22 PM

There are approximately 800,000 LEOs in the US. Do you expect any LEO on this forum to speak for and justify or explain the actions for all the other 799,999 LEOs?

azurefly · August 17, 2006, 08:32 PM

What's wrong with someone asking for other officers' views on a subject?

No one is demanding, "You, non-involved LEO from somewhere else, you'd better come up with a damned good reason why this other guy did this!"

I guess the wording of the request could have been better chosen, but I took it to mean, "What do you think of this? Do you as a cop think it is excusable?"

Maybe I am giving too much benefit of the doubt?

-azurefly

Epyon · August 17, 2006, 08:36 PM

I've yet to have the opportunity to attend a large protest in my area, but how exactly are police supposed to conduct themselves? Aren't they to just make sure there is no violence and as long as that is the case then they are to take no action in order to disperse the crowd? I hear many protests that go against big government (such as the heavy protesting against globalization and during the year the Republican convetion was held in NY the media did its best to hide the fact there were many who were on the streets in protest) are usually dispersed by police even if there was no need to use force. I'm not hating on cops, but its sad when government orders people to shut up and stay quiet. Also what I don't understand is, why do we need a permit to protest? If it's our right to protest and petiton why should we have to seek to pay for permission, especially if it's on public grounds?

Epyon

P.S: UCF has a Free Speech grounds, one of the better places to be able to protest without a permit. I think we need more of those kinds of areas in parks and such, especially near government buildings not blocking entrances, but visible to the public.

**Rich Lucibella** · August 17, 2006, 08:41 PM

Sgt. John Brooks needs to be stripped of badge and uniform.

And for the apologists here, who NEVER appear to be other LEO's, shall we just wait for his trial and appeal before passing judgment or form opinion on his own words of apology?

The Cops I know don't deserve to have to reference this guy as "colleague".

May Ritter take everything he owns....just as he took the Public Trust and placed himself in position of OverLord.
Rich

badbob · August 17, 2006, 08:47 PM

invssg,

I'm not casting aspersions, I just want to know why? That is a TRAINING video, for Godsakes. I have emailed Broward Co. and Jeb Bush. Emailing the Fla. AG is a good idea.

badbob

Heist · August 17, 2006, 08:48 PM

Wasn't there another 'private circulation' video that had equally scandalous results?

Besides, I don't see why just the one guy should be disciplined. It looks like everyone laughed and went along with it. I don't see why they should get to live off my tax dollars into their retirement, or why their familes should still be able to eat because of that job. There's other guys who could bring more dignity to the table.

It's actually sort of disgusting to see them dressed up in black like that. Those aren't the neighborhood cops that I grew up with and idolized.

Also, "free speech zones" are a perversion that would make the founding fathers projectile vomit in their graves with enough spin induced centrifugal force to orbit it.

**Rich Lucibella** · August 17, 2006, 09:18 PM

Have we all watched the video?

Quote:

No officer has been charged or disciplined in Miami's "Rubber Bullet" incident.

Susan Cadiotti
CNN News

Why not?
Rich Lucibella
Florida Taxpayer and Voter

Rimrod · August 17, 2006, 09:51 PM

They are in need of a good house-cleaning. I have met some of the poorest excuses for human beings in police uniforms and it isn't just a recent trend. There needs to be a better system of hiring police officers and there certainly needs to be a way to "police" the police, especially if their superiors don't feel it is thier job. I found it surprising that the civillian review board supported the officers in this case.

There are many good officers that will suffer from this situation and it may change their attitude toward their job. Also there may have been some potentially good officers in that crowd in the video that because of their exposure to the 'Hollywood Heroes' will do nothing but imitate them.

I think the .U.S. Justice Dept. needs to look into them, as soon as they are done here.

Sarge · August 17, 2006, 10:00 PM

I'm telling you (and no offense Rich) there is something in the water down there, and it ain't just alligators. Here's another one that'll piss you off at least as bad as this story.

Just for the record- I don't cover for skunks in uniform, and have personally eradicated a few of them myself.

**Rich Lucibella** · August 17, 2006, 10:12 PM

invssgt-
No offense taken.

I simply detest having to explain some of these guys away, in light of guys like you.

I know it's "part of the job" when you take on a high profile career. I still don't think it's fair and I fully understand your desire to avoid many of these threads....I would, too, if I were you. But, then, I never pinned on a badge and went off to try to make this Nation better in return for a wage that is way below your value.

Even more reason why I know it's not fair to guys like you. Thanks for what you do. Please keep doing it.
Rich

silicon wolverine · August 17, 2006, 10:27 PM

No oofense to any LEO's out there that are perusing but in my lifetime ive seen some of the dumbest ****e for brains morons get jobs as city cops because they were too stupid to do anything else. One of the cops in a small town where i used to work actually couldnt READ OR WRITE. He was given the job by a family freind mayor. The idiot lasted until he ran down an inncoent bystander in pursuit of a car. On the other side of the coin the county sherrif i knew growing up was the fairest, straightest cop i know. To this day i have yet to hear ANYBODY say a bad word about him.

SW

Epyon · August 17, 2006, 10:31 PM

About the incident at the Florida range, that's ridiculous! I don't give a rat's @$$ if that guy was the "son of such and such person of high authority". I would completely press charges and make sure they end up in the slammer. I believe Florida has 10,20,Life for gun related crimes. Unfortunately, it is true about how Florida is just getting to be a bigger and bigger mess according to Captain Finn of the sixgunner forums. Example: When my father and sister were hit by a drunk driver a few years back, the (insert as many curses here possible) got off with a slap on the wrist with only a few months in jail. Luckily both of my family members came out with minimal injuries. Out of all the places I've traveled, seen and stayed at, I'd have to say I can't stand Florida here much. The only thing keeping me right now is finishing school. But man do I miss the mountains and forests out west... ah greener pastures.

Epyon

badbob · August 17, 2006, 10:45 PM

Amendment I?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void." Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 5, U.S. (Cranch) 137, 174,176

I thing the above says "if it ain't Constitutional, it ain't legal". I wonder what part of "the right of the people peaceably assemble" they don't understand. The cops ought to be charged with a felony, assault at least. Instead the injured parties have to file a CIVIL suit! I don't know if these -------- took an oath, but I swore to uphold and defend the CONSTITUTION. Watch the video again. They think it's a football game or something. I'm TICKED

azurefly · August 17, 2006, 11:08 PM

I don't know how it compares to the rest of the country, but I know that Florida has a HUGE share of cops who, as some have described, aren't fit human beings, or who make inexcusable errors in judgment, or who outright commit heinous crimes.

Some Palm Beach County corrections officers a year or two ago were found to have been involved with a dog-fighting ring, and were arrested because they had dumped some mortally wounded dogs on a road beside a canal.

I have read of several incidents about cops in Riviera Beach (baaaad area, even worse police force publicly noted to be riddled with corruption), some of which involved gunshots & domestic violence (yes, involving killings).

Last week, there was a woman cop who shot and killed her firefighter boyfriend and then killed herself -- using her duty weapon -- after a loud fight that spilled outside their home. Another firefighter friend of theirs tried to intervene and was shot at by this psycho woman.

I'm sorry, and I know, Rich, that anti-copism is a sore spot for you.
My PERSONAL experiences with cops in this area have been, ironically, perfectly fine and professional with ZERO exceptions (even when I was stopped for allegedly "suspicious activity" and had to temporarily yield my personal arms).

But my daily reading of several newspapers has exposed me to a constant barrage of stories where cops are accused and convicted (or, worse, offered DEALS for) wrongdoing. I could bore you with an extensive list ranging through having sex with suspects, consorting with known felons, conducting illegal dogfighting rings, stalking ex-girlfriends, tampering with witnesses, homicide... One cop recently shot a guy in the arm after the guy allegedly tried to steal his badge. It was later found that the cop had offered the guy money for a sex act performed in his car, and when the guy did not finish it, the cop wanted his $40 back, the guy refused, the cop's badge dropped, the guy picked it up and offered to sell it to the cop, the cop shot him and then his story was that he was robbed of his badge. (His story fell apart within days of the initial report.)

This area gives plenty of reason to be dubious about the sterlingness of local Florida cops' behavior.

-azurefly

Sarge · August 17, 2006, 11:28 PM

Rich- thank you very much.

El Paso Joe · August 18, 2006, 11:45 AM

When I got out of the service after Vietnam, I carried a badge in a rural county for a couple years. What I saw was that there were some good ones and some bad ones.

Not everyone wearing a badge is Marshal Dillon or a mythically noble John Wayne like character. There are some good cops and some bad cops.

One CHP in the county where I served didn't like Mexicans and regularly roughed them up (I was tho only one carrying a badge who spoke Spanish so I often was witness). It was just business as usual. He was the CHP officer of the year a couple times.

The agencies are reticent to step up to a problem. They were then and are now. By the time an agency concedes there is a problem, a lot of people have been hurt (how many African-Americans do you think were beaten before the Rodney King video made the news?).

So about the best a citizen can do is hope that there is someone there with video equipment when they are at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong cop and have their day in the barrel (for "contempt of cop" or failing the attitude test)

August 17, 2006, 07:27 PM	#1
badbob Junior member Join Date: August 17, 2006 Posts: 999	Justification? Can any LEOs out there justify this? http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter...2296783&page=1 http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/09/tra....ap/index.html (watch the video) I would be interested in hearing the excuse for this. badbob

August 17, 2006, 07:58 PM	#2
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	I don't see how shooting a woman, peacefully protesting, in the back is ever a justifiable shot. The fact that they were using rubber bullets or paintballs or whatever matters not. Both the mayor and Maj. Brooks say the same thing: they're embarassed by the incident and the so-called "training film." I'll be surprised if a LEO posts anything defending these guys. __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

August 17, 2006, 08:01 PM	#3
osufanboy Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 93	pretty damning. it's when people see this they dislike cops. i know i'll be branded a cop hater/basher/etc - i don't care. they're supposed to protect the public, just as my tagline says, not be enemies of the people. love it at the end when the sheriff says he should have stopped the gloating... what he means is he wishes there was no recording and they didn't get caught. __________________ There's a reason we separate military and the police: one fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

August 17, 2006, 08:36 PM	#7
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	Curious... I've yet to have the opportunity to attend a large protest in my area, but how exactly are police supposed to conduct themselves? Aren't they to just make sure there is no violence and as long as that is the case then they are to take no action in order to disperse the crowd? I hear many protests that go against big government (such as the heavy protesting against globalization and during the year the Republican convetion was held in NY the media did its best to hide the fact there were many who were on the streets in protest) are usually dispersed by police even if there was no need to use force. I'm not hating on cops, but its sad when government orders people to shut up and stay quiet. Also what I don't understand is, why do we need a permit to protest? If it's our right to protest and petiton why should we have to seek to pay for permission, especially if it's on public grounds? Epyon P.S: UCF has a Free Speech grounds, one of the better places to be able to protest without a permit. I think we need more of those kinds of areas in parks and such, especially near government buildings not blocking entrances, but visible to the public. __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 17, 2006, 08:41 PM	#8
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Sgt. John Brooks needs to be stripped of badge and uniform. And for the apologists here, who NEVER appear to be other LEO's, shall we just wait for his trial and appeal before passing judgment or form opinion on his own words of apology? The Cops I know don't deserve to have to reference this guy as "colleague". May Ritter take everything he owns....just as he took the Public Trust and placed himself in position of OverLord. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

August 17, 2006, 08:22 PM	#5
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	There are approximately 800,000 LEOs in the US. Do you expect any LEO on this forum to speak for and justify or explain the actions for all the other 799,999 LEOs?

August 17, 2006, 08:32 PM	#6
azurefly Junior member Join Date: November 22, 2005 Posts: 1,187	What's wrong with someone asking for other officers' views on a subject? No one is demanding, "You, non-involved LEO from somewhere else, you'd better come up with a damned good reason why this other guy did this!" I guess the wording of the request could have been better chosen, but I took it to mean, "What do you think of this? Do you as a cop think it is excusable?" Maybe I am giving too much benefit of the doubt? -azurefly

August 17, 2006, 08:47 PM	#9
badbob Junior member Join Date: August 17, 2006 Posts: 999	invssg, I'm not casting aspersions, I just want to know why? That is a TRAINING video, for Godsakes. I have emailed Broward Co. and Jeb Bush. Emailing the Fla. AG is a good idea. badbob

August 17, 2006, 08:48 PM	#10
Heist Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2005 Location: ETN, Again Posts: 760	Wasn't there another 'private circulation' video that had equally scandalous results? Besides, I don't see why just the one guy should be disciplined. It looks like everyone laughed and went along with it. I don't see why they should get to live off my tax dollars into their retirement, or why their familes should still be able to eat because of that job. There's other guys who could bring more dignity to the table. It's actually sort of disgusting to see them dressed up in black like that. Those aren't the neighborhood cops that I grew up with and idolized. Also, "free speech zones" are a perversion that would make the founding fathers projectile vomit in their graves with enough spin induced centrifugal force to orbit it.

August 17, 2006, 09:51 PM	#12
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	I'll justify it for you. They are in need of a good house-cleaning. I have met some of the poorest excuses for human beings in police uniforms and it isn't just a recent trend. There needs to be a better system of hiring police officers and there certainly needs to be a way to "police" the police, especially if their superiors don't feel it is thier job. I found it surprising that the civillian review board supported the officers in this case. There are many good officers that will suffer from this situation and it may change their attitude toward their job. Also there may have been some potentially good officers in that crowd in the video that because of their exposure to the 'Hollywood Heroes' will do nothing but imitate them. I think the .U.S. Justice Dept. needs to look into them, as soon as they are done here.

August 17, 2006, 10:00 PM	#13
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I'm telling you (and no offense Rich) there is something in the water down there, and it ain't just alligators. Here's another one that'll piss you off at least as bad as this story. Just for the record- I don't cover for skunks in uniform, and have personally eradicated a few of them myself. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

August 17, 2006, 10:12 PM	#14
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	invssgt- No offense taken. I simply detest having to explain some of these guys away, in light of guys like you. I know it's "part of the job" when you take on a high profile career. I still don't think it's fair and I fully understand your desire to avoid many of these threads....I would, too, if I were you. But, then, I never pinned on a badge and went off to try to make this Nation better in return for a wage that is way below your value. Even more reason why I know it's not fair to guys like you. Thanks for what you do. Please keep doing it. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

August 17, 2006, 10:27 PM	#15
silicon wolverine Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2006 Location: South dakota Posts: 674	No oofense to any LEO's out there that are perusing but in my lifetime ive seen some of the dumbest ****e for brains morons get jobs as city cops because they were too stupid to do anything else. One of the cops in a small town where i used to work actually couldnt READ OR WRITE. He was given the job by a family freind mayor. The idiot lasted until he ran down an inncoent bystander in pursuit of a car. On the other side of the coin the county sherrif i knew growing up was the fairest, straightest cop i know. To this day i have yet to hear ANYBODY say a bad word about him. SW

August 17, 2006, 10:31 PM	#16
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	That other link... About the incident at the Florida range, that's ridiculous! I don't give a rat's @$$ if that guy was the "son of such and such person of high authority". I would completely press charges and make sure they end up in the slammer. I believe Florida has 10,20,Life for gun related crimes. Unfortunately, it is true about how Florida is just getting to be a bigger and bigger mess according to Captain Finn of the sixgunner forums. Example: When my father and sister were hit by a drunk driver a few years back, the (insert as many curses here possible) got off with a slap on the wrist with only a few months in jail. Luckily both of my family members came out with minimal injuries. Out of all the places I've traveled, seen and stayed at, I'd have to say I can't stand Florida here much. The only thing keeping me right now is finishing school. But man do I miss the mountains and forests out west... ah greener pastures. Epyon __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 17, 2006, 10:45 PM	#17
badbob Junior member Join Date: August 17, 2006 Posts: 999	Amendment I?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void." Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 5, U.S. (Cranch) 137, 174,176 I thing the above says "if it ain't Constitutional, it ain't legal". I wonder what part of "the right of the people peaceably assemble" they don't understand. The cops ought to be charged with a felony, assault at least. Instead the injured parties have to file a CIVIL suit! I don't know if these -------- took an oath, but I swore to uphold and defend the CONSTITUTION. Watch the video again. They think it's a football game or something. I'm TICKED

August 17, 2006, 11:08 PM	#18
azurefly Junior member Join Date: November 22, 2005 Posts: 1,187	I don't know how it compares to the rest of the country, but I know that Florida has a HUGE share of cops who, as some have described, aren't fit human beings, or who make inexcusable errors in judgment, or who outright commit heinous crimes. Some Palm Beach County corrections officers a year or two ago were found to have been involved with a dog-fighting ring, and were arrested because they had dumped some mortally wounded dogs on a road beside a canal. I have read of several incidents about cops in Riviera Beach (baaaad area, even worse police force publicly noted to be riddled with corruption), some of which involved gunshots & domestic violence (yes, involving killings). Last week, there was a woman cop who shot and killed her firefighter boyfriend and then killed herself -- using her duty weapon -- after a loud fight that spilled outside their home. Another firefighter friend of theirs tried to intervene and was shot at by this psycho woman. I'm sorry, and I know, Rich, that anti-copism is a sore spot for you. My PERSONAL experiences with cops in this area have been, ironically, perfectly fine and professional with ZERO exceptions (even when I was stopped for allegedly "suspicious activity" and had to temporarily yield my personal arms). But my daily reading of several newspapers has exposed me to a constant barrage of stories where cops are accused and convicted (or, worse, offered DEALS for) wrongdoing. I could bore you with an extensive list ranging through having sex with suspects, consorting with known felons, conducting illegal dogfighting rings, stalking ex-girlfriends, tampering with witnesses, homicide... One cop recently shot a guy in the arm after the guy allegedly tried to steal his badge. It was later found that the cop had offered the guy money for a sex act performed in his car, and when the guy did not finish it, the cop wanted his $40 back, the guy refused, the cop's badge dropped, the guy picked it up and offered to sell it to the cop, the cop shot him and then his story was that he was robbed of his badge. (His story fell apart within days of the initial report.) This area gives plenty of reason to be dubious about the sterlingness of local Florida cops' behavior. -azurefly

August 17, 2006, 11:28 PM	#19
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Rich- thank you very much. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

August 18, 2006, 11:45 AM	#20
El Paso Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2006 Location: Spokane Valley Posts: 340	Some good, some otherwise When I got out of the service after Vietnam, I carried a badge in a rural county for a couple years. What I saw was that there were some good ones and some bad ones. Not everyone wearing a badge is Marshal Dillon or a mythically noble John Wayne like character. There are some good cops and some bad cops. One CHP in the county where I served didn't like Mexicans and regularly roughed them up (I was tho only one carrying a badge who spoke Spanish so I often was witness). It was just business as usual. He was the CHP officer of the year a couple times. The agencies are reticent to step up to a problem. They were then and are now. By the time an agency concedes there is a problem, a lot of people have been hurt (how many African-Americans do you think were beaten before the Rodney King video made the news?). So about the best a citizen can do is hope that there is someone there with video equipment when they are at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong cop and have their day in the barrel (for "contempt of cop" or failing the attitude test)