Reloaded round vs. Factory load. Save $$??

riljc7 · February 6, 2009, 07:39 PM

How much does it save to reload you own rounds, after you buy all the tools needed?

BigJimP · February 6, 2009, 07:47 PM

It depends on the caliber / or gague for shotguns - but I can reload 9mm for example at about $ 5.50 for a box of 50 - and in my area 9mm retails for about $ 10 - $12 a box / and I reload .40S&W for about $ 8 a box / .45acp is about $9 a box ( vs whatever the retail cost is in your area ).

But its not just cost savings - you also get a more accurate and consistent round than you can buy with cheap ammo.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 6, 2009, 09:06 PM

depends how much you shoot. If you shoot quite a bit, it may be worthwhile. Reloading takes time, too. I probably shoot about 150-200 rounds a week, so it is worth it for me. I am only 26 so I have many years(hopefully) to pay off my reloading equipment through my savings over factory ammo. I shoot 1000 yards with my .243 so I am super-picky about my loads. They are ultra consistent....and they must be for 1k yard shooting. I will never trust a factory load to be consistently accurte at 1000 yards.

Antihero47 · February 6, 2009, 09:52 PM

.308Win

Plinking Load
$6.65 for 20

168g BT FMJ
46g BL-C(2)
CCI 200 LR Primers

Precision Load
$10.33 for 20

168g SMK BTHP
44.5g Varget
CCI 200 LR Primers

Factory Load
$12.96

150g PSP
Federal Power Shok

Factory Precision
$27.79

168g SMK BTHP
Federal Gold Match

I am pretty sure I can bring down the loads a bit more. Also, I did not include brass prices because a lot of the brass was given to me. I also load for 30-06 and the prices go up a little from there. Hope this helps.

**Unclenick** · February 6, 2009, 10:15 PM

At the bottom end, I can reload .45 ACP for about four cents a round if I don't count my time casting bullets or finding free scrap metal for making them from or the cost of the brass (assuming it is all range foundlings). That assumes a target load of Bullseye, which comes to about a penny, even now. The primers are about 2 cents, but I buy them by the case of 5000 at Camp Perry, where they are discounted during the nationals. It depends on the brand, too. I allow another penny for electricity consumed in everything from tumbling to casting to keeping the lights on while I reload. Probably too much per round, but that allows a little for tossing mistakes and so on.

At the upper end, a rifle round with a jacketed match bullet is not inexpensive to build. In .308 it amounts to 3 cents for a better primer, 10 cents for powder, 25 cents for a match bullet, about 5 cents to amortize a Lapua case. Again, discounted bulk purchases of supplies are needed for those prices. That's 43 cents a round, or not quite $9.00 per 20 rounds. You can find loaded ammo that cheap, but it won't be match grade, much less, tuned to your gun. If you go to Federal Gold Medal Match, by comparison, you pay about $1.75 a round nowadays. So the savings is still more than 3:1 for the nearest thing to a comparable brand name load. Less for the less well known brands, like HSM.

chieftain · February 6, 2009, 11:21 PM

I just started reloading a couple months ago because with four shooters in the house and three of us shooting .45 acp at thirty two cents a round it made sense to reload. I think we are down to about thirteen cents a round now not counting my labor and looking at casting my own bullets to even lower the cost more down the road. It is rather time consuming but I find it therapeutic and God knows I need the therapy.

Chris

JAYBIRD78 · February 7, 2009, 05:21 AM

You have to buy the equipment.

You have to spend your time doing the reloading.

You can save at least 50% of what factory ammo costs.

For me, it is worth it.

Alleykat · February 7, 2009, 10:23 AM

I'm spending about 11 cents per round for quality .223 fmj reloads. You do the math!

TEDDY · February 7, 2009, 07:15 PM

and then there is the shortage of ammo.and your your own supplyer.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 7, 2009, 07:32 PM

.11 cents for .223 relaods?? that's cheap. Those must be sub-sonic....

How do you pull that off...even if you get brass for free????

jdscholer · February 8, 2009, 03:52 PM

With almost every rifle I have reloaded for, I have been able to cut the group size in half compared to factory ammo. If that is important to you, then reloads are priceless.

jd

markr · February 8, 2009, 04:45 PM

The original question was saving money.

If you are only talking the components of a bullet, you are saving money. I'm duplicating my favorite store bought load for 40% of the store bought price. And that is including the case, which of course, can be re-used several times.

The cost of the reloading equipment is amoratized(sp) everytime you shoot. If you are saving 12 bucks on each box of bullets you shoot, every box you shoot defrays the inital cost of the equipment by 12 bucks. Now, if you get the reloading bug, and like many people, you can't resist spending more and more money on newer, shiny-er, fancier equipment, than lets not fool ourselves. You won't be saving as much. But if that is your cup of tea, then who cares, enjoy yourself. However, you can buy a starter kit of some kind for a couple hundred bucks or less, and start saving a lot sooner, and produce the same quality bullets as with the really expensive equipment.

benzuncle · February 8, 2009, 06:46 PM

riljc7, WELCOME! I gave some thought just over 1 year ago to reloading. After lurking and devouring everything I could about reloading and the different reloading equipment on the market I chose the Lee Classic Turret Press. Part of the decision was based on the intial cash outlay. Another consideration was what if I didn't like reloading? Well, in the year that has passed, I found out the Lee equipment was a great investment and that I love loading. It is now a unintentional 2nd hobby.

My reloading equipment, and I mean everything I needed equipment wise (not just the press) set me back $330.70. I added the cost of the bench I chose to use and a 4ft fluorescent light for another $106. I figure I easily paid for the equipment in the $$ I saved in this first year of loading/shooting. I based this on shooting at least 150 rounds of 45acp each time I have gone to the range. To get "there" you will need to pick up your brass and anyone elses that will let you. I needed to use up that amount in 18 trips; I went well over that number in a year's time. As previously mentioned, reloading became another hobby, one the involves no range fee or gas to and from. The Classic Turret Press can load up to 200 rounds per hour. I take it easy and load about 150 per. I have added 2 more calibers: 380 and 357sig at an additional cost of about $40 per caliber. As the press and all of the other goodies are already paid for I'm sittin' pretty. Hope this helps.

CraigC · February 8, 2009, 08:22 PM

Some calibers, dirt cheap. If you figure that I shoot .44Spl almost more than any other and have never bought brass, it's almost free! Going on two year old cast bullet prices, I figured I could load them for about $4/50rds. A savings of at least $20 a box. Now with a Dillon 650 cranking out .44Mag's as fast as I care to, I save a hell of a lot of time too!

CrustyFN · February 8, 2009, 08:41 PM

The general rule is you should be able to reload for half of what factory cost. I buy in bulk and large quantities and can load for this.
9mm - $80 per 1,000.
38 spcl - $80 per 1,000.
223 - $100 per 1,000.
45 auto - $27 per 1,000 I also cast my own bullets.

Rusty

Antihero47 · February 8, 2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

.308Win

Plinking Load
$6.65 for 20

168g BT FMJ
46g BL-C(2)
CCI 200 LR Primers

Precision Load
$10.33 for 20

168g SMK BTHP
44.5g Varget
CCI 200 LR Primers

Factory Load
$12.96

150g PSP
Federal Power Shok

Factory Precision
$27.79

168g SMK BTHP
Federal Gold Match

I am pretty sure I can bring down the loads a bit more. Also, I did not include brass prices because a lot of the brass was given to me. I also load for 30-06 and the prices go up a little from there. Hope this helps.

Note: All of my prices are with the shipping and taxes included. Hence why you may see figures a little lower then mine.

CraigC · February 9, 2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

The general rule is you should be able to reload for half of what factory cost.

Guess that really depends on what you're loading. Hope you guys are figuring using brass at least 20-30 times when coming up with your expenses. I do.

tom234 · February 9, 2009, 03:04 AM

http://10xshooters.com/calculators/H...Calculator.htm

http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

FrankenMauser · February 9, 2009, 06:16 AM

I reload 9mm at current market prices (much higher than my actual cost) for $4.22 a box, or $0.08 apiece.

I keep my costs down by using efficient powders, buying hard-cast bullets on sale, purchasing primers in bulk, and using 100% free brass. (Range pick-up, or brass that was given to me)

As I have said in other posts; I make my money back on rifle reloading. Pistol reloading is decent enough, in the savings department. However, I can save 75-95% over factory ammo when reloading for my rifles. And I am using higher quality bullets; hand selected for the purpose. (Not just having to surrender to what is available in factory loads.)

There is more to reloading than saving money. You have to be able to enjoy it, and understand that there are dangers in not devoting your full attention to safety.

KEN K · February 9, 2009, 08:00 AM

I reload for my hunting so I don't go through a lot of ammo, but with a Jap 7.7 its still worth it when you look at the price that Norma charges. They wanted $1 per for there brass and I'm sure over $35 a box loaded. I can load for a lot less than that, especially since I found out that I can load 8MM Mauser cases by just resizing the neck. Besides like one of the others said it's relaxing and theriputic.

Don P · February 9, 2009, 09:04 AM

I have found that it is a 60-65% savings over factory ammo. I save brass and buy the remainder of the supplies. Primers, powder, and lead cast bullets.
Depending on the calibers you load I was $106 ahead of factory ammo prices after loading 2500 rounds and that includes recouping my initial equipment investment

CrustyFN · February 9, 2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Hope you guys are figuring using brass at least 20-30 times when coming up with your expenses. I do.

I have never figured any cost for brass. I have buckets of it that I have picked up at the range and never had to buy any.
Rusty

CraigC · February 9, 2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

I have never figured any cost for brass.

I usually don't either. I waited way too long to start handloading and always saved my brass so I've bought very little. However, many times when numbers are quoted on the internet, folks forget to factor in how many times they will reuse brass and only count it once. When you figure how many times you can load most pistol brass, it comes out very cheap even if you buy it new.

riljc7 · February 9, 2009, 02:12 PM

WOW.thats awesome, thanks guys! I never thought it would be more accurate than factory.

Now I need to figure out where, and what reloading equipment to buy now. You guy have any suggestions/referrals beside the 2 mentioned above. I will be reloading for Rem 870 shotgun sabot barrel, 410, .22 Winchester mag, and looking to pickup a pistol soon probally .40S&W.

Paul B. · February 9, 2009, 03:44 PM

Well, I've been reloading since I was 16 and I'm 70 now. I still have the equipment I bought way back then and it's still useable although I have upgraded since then.
About the only time I buy new brass is when I'm starting out with a gun that takes a cartridge I don't already load for. I'll also buy one box of factory ammo for chronographing purposes.
Let's say a bag of 100 rounds of brass costs $30.That's $.30 a round. Load and shoot them. Amortizing the cost the second time around, that brass cost $.15 a round. Load a third time and you're looking at $.075 a shot, for the brass mind you. Load #4 will cost $.0375 a round and so on. I only bring this up because at one time, that brass cartridge case was considered the most expensive part of the load. These days, if one uses premium bullets that may no longer be true. Even the less expensive cup and core bullets have taken a large jump in price. I wonder if they'll ever come back down to normal now that metal prices are dropping? I'm not holding my breath.
Another money saver is to do most of your shooting with cast bullets. you can get started for a bit over $100 for one caliber if you use Lee equipment. I think their molds are a bit fragile but they do make decent bullets. I probably shoot 100 cast bullets in my rifles for every jacketed bullet and shoot cast exclusively in my handgun.
You can even load cast to full power in rounds like the 30-30 and .32 Win. Spl. and they kill deer just fine. cast bullets can also be quite accurate. My pet .308 Win. load will do 1.5 MOA from a Winchester M70 sporter at 200 yard and 2.5 MOA at 300 yards. Of course that's on a reasonbly wind free day. Velocity of the load is only about 1550 FPS. Cheap shooting fun BTW.
Paul B.

February 6, 2009, 07:39 PM	#1
riljc7 Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 2	Reloaded round vs. Factory load. Save $$?? How much does it save to reload you own rounds, after you buy all the tools needed?

February 6, 2009, 09:06 PM	#3
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	depends how much you shoot. If you shoot quite a bit, it may be worthwhile. Reloading takes time, too. I probably shoot about 150-200 rounds a week, so it is worth it for me. I am only 26 so I have many years(hopefully) to pay off my reloading equipment through my savings over factory ammo. I shoot 1000 yards with my .243 so I am super-picky about my loads. They are ultra consistent....and they must be for 1k yard shooting. I will never trust a factory load to be consistently accurte at 1000 yards. __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 6, 2009, 10:15 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	At the bottom end, I can reload .45 ACP for about four cents a round if I don't count my time casting bullets or finding free scrap metal for making them from or the cost of the brass (assuming it is all range foundlings). That assumes a target load of Bullseye, which comes to about a penny, even now. The primers are about 2 cents, but I buy them by the case of 5000 at Camp Perry, where they are discounted during the nationals. It depends on the brand, too. I allow another penny for electricity consumed in everything from tumbling to casting to keeping the lights on while I reload. Probably too much per round, but that allows a little for tossing mistakes and so on. At the upper end, a rifle round with a jacketed match bullet is not inexpensive to build. In .308 it amounts to 3 cents for a better primer, 10 cents for powder, 25 cents for a match bullet, about 5 cents to amortize a Lapua case. Again, discounted bulk purchases of supplies are needed for those prices. That's 43 cents a round, or not quite $9.00 per 20 rounds. You can find loaded ammo that cheap, but it won't be match grade, much less, tuned to your gun. If you go to Federal Gold Medal Match, by comparison, you pay about $1.75 a round nowadays. So the savings is still more than 3:1 for the nearest thing to a comparable brand name load. Less for the less well known brands, like HSM. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 7, 2009, 05:21 AM	#7
JAYBIRD78 Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: People's Republik of Illinois...in "gun valley" Posts: 366	You have to buy the equipment. You have to spend your time doing the reloading. You can save at least 50% of what factory ammo costs. For me, it is worth it. __________________ Forgive me ....I can not spell. NRA LIFE MEMBER 2009

February 7, 2009, 07:15 PM	#9
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	reloading and then there is the shortage of ammo.and your your own supplyer.

February 6, 2009, 07:47 PM	#2
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	It depends on the caliber / or gague for shotguns - but I can reload 9mm for example at about $ 5.50 for a box of 50 - and in my area 9mm retails for about $ 10 - $12 a box / and I reload .40S&W for about $ 8 a box / .45acp is about $9 a box ( vs whatever the retail cost is in your area ). But its not just cost savings - you also get a more accurate and consistent round than you can buy with cheap ammo.

February 6, 2009, 09:52 PM	#4
Antihero47 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 111	.308Win Plinking Load $6.65 for 20 168g BT FMJ 46g BL-C(2) CCI 200 LR Primers Precision Load $10.33 for 20 168g SMK BTHP 44.5g Varget CCI 200 LR Primers Factory Load $12.96 150g PSP Federal Power Shok Factory Precision $27.79 168g SMK BTHP Federal Gold Match I am pretty sure I can bring down the loads a bit more. Also, I did not include brass prices because a lot of the brass was given to me. I also load for 30-06 and the prices go up a little from there. Hope this helps. Last edited by Antihero47; February 6, 2009 at 10:02 PM.

February 6, 2009, 11:21 PM	#6
chieftain Junior Member Join Date: January 4, 2009 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 2	I just started reloading a couple months ago because with four shooters in the house and three of us shooting .45 acp at thirty two cents a round it made sense to reload. I think we are down to about thirteen cents a round now not counting my labor and looking at casting my own bullets to even lower the cost more down the road. It is rather time consuming but I find it therapeutic and God knows I need the therapy. Chris

February 7, 2009, 10:23 AM	#8
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	I'm spending about 11 cents per round for quality .223 fmj reloads. You do the math!

February 7, 2009, 07:32 PM	#10
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	.11 cents for .223 relaods?? that's cheap. Those must be sub-sonic.... How do you pull that off...even if you get brass for free???? __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 8, 2009, 03:52 PM	#11
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	With almost every rifle I have reloaded for, I have been able to cut the group size in half compared to factory ammo. If that is important to you, then reloads are priceless. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

February 8, 2009, 04:45 PM	#12
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	The original question was saving money. If you are only talking the components of a bullet, you are saving money. I'm duplicating my favorite store bought load for 40% of the store bought price. And that is including the case, which of course, can be re-used several times. The cost of the reloading equipment is amoratized(sp) everytime you shoot. If you are saving 12 bucks on each box of bullets you shoot, every box you shoot defrays the inital cost of the equipment by 12 bucks. Now, if you get the reloading bug, and like many people, you can't resist spending more and more money on newer, shiny-er, fancier equipment, than lets not fool ourselves. You won't be saving as much. But if that is your cup of tea, then who cares, enjoy yourself. However, you can buy a starter kit of some kind for a couple hundred bucks or less, and start saving a lot sooner, and produce the same quality bullets as with the really expensive equipment. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 8, 2009, 06:46 PM	#13
benzuncle Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2008 Location: Central Florida Posts: 357	riljc7, WELCOME! I gave some thought just over 1 year ago to reloading. After lurking and devouring everything I could about reloading and the different reloading equipment on the market I chose the Lee Classic Turret Press. Part of the decision was based on the intial cash outlay. Another consideration was what if I didn't like reloading? Well, in the year that has passed, I found out the Lee equipment was a great investment and that I love loading. It is now a unintentional 2nd hobby. My reloading equipment, and I mean everything I needed equipment wise (not just the press) set me back $330.70. I added the cost of the bench I chose to use and a 4ft fluorescent light for another $106. I figure I easily paid for the equipment in the $$ I saved in this first year of loading/shooting. I based this on shooting at least 150 rounds of 45acp each time I have gone to the range. To get "there" you will need to pick up your brass and anyone elses that will let you. I needed to use up that amount in 18 trips; I went well over that number in a year's time. As previously mentioned, reloading became another hobby, one the involves no range fee or gas to and from. The Classic Turret Press can load up to 200 rounds per hour. I take it easy and load about 150 per. I have added 2 more calibers: 380 and 357sig at an additional cost of about $40 per caliber. As the press and all of the other goodies are already paid for I'm sittin' pretty. Hope this helps. Last edited by benzuncle; February 8, 2009 at 06:48 PM. Reason: A Welcome!

February 8, 2009, 08:22 PM	#14
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	Some calibers, dirt cheap. If you figure that I shoot .44Spl almost more than any other and have never bought brass, it's almost free! Going on two year old cast bullet prices, I figured I could load them for about $4/50rds. A savings of at least $20 a box. Now with a Dillon 650 cranking out .44Mag's as fast as I care to, I save a hell of a lot of time too!

February 8, 2009, 08:41 PM	#15
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	The general rule is you should be able to reload for half of what factory cost. I buy in bulk and large quantities and can load for this. 9mm - $80 per 1,000. 38 spcl - $80 per 1,000. 223 - $100 per 1,000. 45 auto - $27 per 1,000 I also cast my own bullets. Rusty __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

February 9, 2009, 03:04 AM	#18
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	http://10xshooters.com/calculators/H...Calculator.htm http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

February 9, 2009, 06:16 AM	#19
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I reload 9mm at current market prices (much higher than my actual cost) for $4.22 a box, or $0.08 apiece. I keep my costs down by using efficient powders, buying hard-cast bullets on sale, purchasing primers in bulk, and using 100% free brass. (Range pick-up, or brass that was given to me) As I have said in other posts; I make my money back on rifle reloading. Pistol reloading is decent enough, in the savings department. However, I can save 75-95% over factory ammo when reloading for my rifles. And I am using higher quality bullets; hand selected for the purpose. (Not just having to surrender to what is available in factory loads.) There is more to reloading than saving money. You have to be able to enjoy it, and understand that there are dangers in not devoting your full attention to safety.

February 9, 2009, 08:00 AM	#20
KEN K Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2006 Location: mid west Georgia Posts: 102	I reload for my hunting so I don't go through a lot of ammo, but with a Jap 7.7 its still worth it when you look at the price that Norma charges. They wanted $1 per for there brass and I'm sure over $35 a box loaded. I can load for a lot less than that, especially since I found out that I can load 8MM Mauser cases by just resizing the neck. Besides like one of the others said it's relaxing and theriputic.

February 9, 2009, 09:04 AM	#21
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I have found that it is a 60-65% savings over factory ammo. I save brass and buy the remainder of the supplies. Primers, powder, and lead cast bullets. Depending on the calibers you load I was $106 ahead of factory ammo prices after loading 2500 rounds and that includes recouping my initial equipment investment __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

February 9, 2009, 02:12 PM	#24
riljc7 Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 2	WOW.thats awesome, thanks guys! I never thought it would be more accurate than factory. Now I need to figure out where, and what reloading equipment to buy now. You guy have any suggestions/referrals beside the 2 mentioned above. I will be reloading for Rem 870 shotgun sabot barrel, 410, .22 Winchester mag, and looking to pickup a pistol soon probally .40S&W.

February 9, 2009, 03:44 PM	#25
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Well, I've been reloading since I was 16 and I'm 70 now. I still have the equipment I bought way back then and it's still useable although I have upgraded since then. About the only time I buy new brass is when I'm starting out with a gun that takes a cartridge I don't already load for. I'll also buy one box of factory ammo for chronographing purposes. Let's say a bag of 100 rounds of brass costs $30.That's $.30 a round. Load and shoot them. Amortizing the cost the second time around, that brass cost $.15 a round. Load a third time and you're looking at $.075 a shot, for the brass mind you. Load #4 will cost $.0375 a round and so on. I only bring this up because at one time, that brass cartridge case was considered the most expensive part of the load. These days, if one uses premium bullets that may no longer be true. Even the less expensive cup and core bullets have taken a large jump in price. I wonder if they'll ever come back down to normal now that metal prices are dropping? I'm not holding my breath. Another money saver is to do most of your shooting with cast bullets. you can get started for a bit over $100 for one caliber if you use Lee equipment. I think their molds are a bit fragile but they do make decent bullets. I probably shoot 100 cast bullets in my rifles for every jacketed bullet and shoot cast exclusively in my handgun. You can even load cast to full power in rounds like the 30-30 and .32 Win. Spl. and they kill deer just fine. cast bullets can also be quite accurate. My pet .308 Win. load will do 1.5 MOA from a Winchester M70 sporter at 200 yard and 2.5 MOA at 300 yards. Of course that's on a reasonbly wind free day. Velocity of the load is only about 1550 FPS. Cheap shooting fun BTW. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!