2 Questions: Lil' Gun and Lee Loaders

[JayT]

This is my first post and it'll be a two-fer.

Let me say first I've enjoyed browsing this site for a while. I appreciate there being both knowledgeable and humorous folks on board.

My first question concerns the use of Lil' gun powder in .357 loads. For some years I've mostly used H110 and 2400 for this round. But having heard interesting news about Lil' gun, I decided to try it.

To make a long story short, I am experiencing sticky extraction in an S&W 686 6", with the following loads:

16.5 grains
16.3 grains
15.5 grains
all under a 158 grain semi-wadcutter Oregon Trails cast bullet
winchester standard small pistol primers
mixed brass

I have not chronographed these loads but they do show good accuracy at 50yrds. My Hodgdon's page shows 16.0 grains as a startling load under a HDY XTP. Even with the XTP's tendency to produce lower pressure than equal loads under other equal weight bullets, I'm puzzled by the apparent high pressure. I called Hodgdon's, but they reported no problems with the lot of powder. All my other loads work fine in the revolver. I've pulled bullets and checked powder weights, but everything seems fine. I'm scratching my head. Anyone have any ideas?

My second question concerns the use of a 30-06 Lee Loader--the little non-press loading kit made by Lee--for rounds to be chambered in a pumpgun, a Remington 760. I just acquired this kit for making a few loads for a friend's gun. I don't normally load for this cartridge (I hope fans of it will forgive me). I was informed by a less than reliable source that the Lee Loader should not be used for rounds intended for a pumpgun because it only neck-sizes. I hoped someone could confirm or deny this.

Jay

[Sevens]

Welcome, Jay.

I made a quick click to the Hodgdon site to see what they say about Lil
Gun and the .357 mag. Though they don't list a cast bullet load with this powder, they do list the XTP jacketed load with it. They also list a number of other powders for a cast lead bullet in the same weight.

In each and every case, the charge is significantly lower when using the same powder for a cast bullet. Actually, that's standard fare for everyone who loads cast lead bullets. Since they offer more resistance going down the barrel, they'll up the pressure if you don't adjust the powder charge.

I would think you should have started in the 13.0 to 14.0 range for your first rounds of cast bullets with Lil' Gun.

Also, you are at risk of really leading up the barrel of your 686 by pushing lead bullets too fast. They say a 16.0 charge of Lil' Gun is sending a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 1,500 fps. That's the kind of velocity that'll lead up a barrel with cast lead bullets... depending on bullet diameter, hardness, etc.

As for question 2 and the Lee Loader, I've never used one. Seems like an ingenious tool that had all kinds of fellows using it back in the '50s. These days? You can grab a set of Lee RGB rifle dies for like $12. That's a full length sizer and a bullet seating die. It's the only Lee set that doesn't come with a shellholder, so you'd need one of those, too. But for the cost? Grab a cheap set of dies and do it properly!

[JayT]

Sevens, I very much appreciate your response and welcome.

I've used Oregon Trails cast bullets in .357, .45 colt, and .30-30 quite extensively and have been very impressed with obtainable velocities without leading. Even with maximum charges of H110 (and velocities in the 1300fps+ range) in the .357, for example, there have been no traces of leading. This conforms to their advertising which boasts rifle speeds without leading, but one does not expect a product to live up to advertising. I've found their 170 grain cast .310 bullets do lead at .30-30 velocities w.o. gaschecks in my microgrooved Marlin, but this is only to be expected.

It is true that cast bullets produce higher pressures than jacketed bullets because of greater resistance--grip of the rifling, one might say. And I've found that charges listed for the XTP are generally high even when other jacketed bullets of equal weight are substituted in a recipe. (From this I've decided that the XTP is just a slippery bullet.) I have, however, NEVER found a load that required cast bullets to be loaded BELOW the starting load for a jacketed bullet of equal weight and would not expect such a load to generate the high pressure necessary to cause sticky extraction. Perhaps I'm letting past experience over determine my interpretation of current evidence, and you're are probably correct that I may have to drop the charge further. However, my understanding has been that Lil'gun (like H110) is best loaded hot and performs inconsistently in lighter loadings. As you noted, Hodgdon's doesn't offer a cast bullet load for Lil'gun. Thus, I am extrapolating from their data for the 158 grain XTP: 16-18 grains. When I spoke to a gentleman at Hodgdon's about my problem, he agreed that 15.5 through 16.5 grain charges--even with a cast bullet--should not be generating high pressures--by a wide margin. Hence, my current confusion. He did suggest I send some rounds for testing, but I thought I'd see if I couldn't solve the problem on my own first.

Thanks again for your consideration. Perhaps we can gain some insights from someone with experience using cast bullets (especially these Oregon Trail lasercasts) and Lil'gun in the .357.

(And anyone with experience with the Lee loader and pump rifles, I'd be grateful for any wisdom you could share.)

Jay

P.S.
I bought the Lee loader with the idea of giving it to my friend, seeing if I couldn't get him started loading. He doesn't currently own a press. Dies and a press and so on was more investment than I wanted to make. Plus I always wanted to try one of those gadgets.

[Sevens]

Well, I can tell you for sure that I don't know HALF of what the gentleman on the other end of the phone at Hodgdon has forgotten! So I certainly can't help you as well as he can.

However:

I have, however, NEVER found a load that required cast bullets to be loaded BELOW the starting load for a jacketed bullet of equal weight and would not expect such a load to generate the high pressure necessary to cause sticky extraction.

The Hodgdon site says aboslutely otherwise. In the 4 or 5 powders they list for the XTP bullet and also for cast bullets in the same weight in .357 Mag (158 grains), each of the starting loads is listed around 10% less than the starting loads for the XTP. Max loads, I did NOT even glance at. I don't see why max loads ought to enter the equation at this stage anyhow, because max loads aren't one that you should try-- they are something you should work toward and attain once you've worked up from a lesser load. That's without sticky extraction, flatten, pierced and popped primers, etc.

I would expect the next logical move would be to slug your barrel and see if you are dealing with a barrel/chamber/cone that's tighter than your cast bullets like.

I didn't realize that an Oregon Trail Lasercast bullet could be pushed that quickly without leading. I may have to grab a box of them and try. The only Lasercast that I have on hand are 200 gr SWC in .45, and I have no need or earthly desire to push them fast. .357 is a different story!

As for the Lee Loader, I cannot imagine putting anyone through the effort that it takes considering what even low-level, basic tools cost. Even the Lee hand press makes more sense to me when you consider the forces necessary and the leverage you need to build reloads in bottle-neck rifle cases. You'd have to go far & wide to find a guy as frugal as I am, but pounding a little tube with a mallet to introduce someone to handloading? IMO, that's akin to teaching a someone to write with a tablet and a chisel.

I am interested in hearing where this goes, too. I may have to come up with some Lasercast and see I how I can push them in my 686. But I'll close with this--I've leaded up my barrel on this revolver once with cast full DBBWC rounds going too fast. And it was a nightmare to remove. I'm not even sure I've gotten it all out yet. I never want to do it again.

[JayT]

Seven, thank you again for your thoughtful comments.

I may not have been entirely clear. Cast bullet starting charges will of course be lower than jacket bullet starting charges when equivalent weight bullets are being used. A better way to make my point might be: I've never found a starting load for a jacketed bullet to be too hot for an equivalent weight cast bullet--as seems to be the case in this instance.

You are right of course to emphasize safety. And I must confess to cutting corners a little by starting my Lil'gun experiments half a grain above the recommended starting load for a jacketed bullet. I've been shooting and reloading for this revolver for years and have found it to consistently generate pressures towards the low end of published data--but this is perhaps an inadequate excuse for my practice. I cannot and ought not recommend it to others.

As for chamber/forcing cone dimensions being problematic--I can only say I've shot many thousands of these bullets for many years in this revolver and have never had problems before. Also bullets from this same batch have performed predictably over (lighter) charges of other powders. In short, unless I am missing something (always a possibility), it does not seem that a misfit between bullet and revolver dimensions are responsible.

As you can tell, I'm a fan of these bullets. I am fond of shooting this revolver at targets at 100 yrds and have found the 140 grain cone shaped bullets to produce remarkable accuracy over hot charges of h110 at this range without leading. These bullets are exceptionally hard, but my experience has been that hardness does not always determine the tendency of an alloy to lead. Richard Lee's Modern Reloading has an elaborate explanation of the relationship between chamber pressure, bullet hardness, and leading that I've read carefully but not attempted to put into practice. For these bullets, I'm inclined to credit the lube to some extent. But I have not actively sought an explanation--I've just enjoyed the results.

I've never used the Lee Loader before and did not realize doing so would be a painful experience. I do have a Lee hand press that I use sometimes at the range for load development, but I find it works best with revolver cartridges and requires too much effort for rifle brass. Perhaps I'll have to reconsider my plans. I already have the Lee loader, however, so will probably give it a try--assuming no one offers a safety concern.

Thanks again. And I welcome others' thoughts.

JayT

[WESHOOT2]

LEE Loader means eye protection mandatory, and I use-n-recommend a glove on the hand over the primer you're hammering in.......

I have zero direct experience with L'IL GUN in 357 Magnum (having not yet exhausted testing 3N37, N350, H110, 2400, AA9, N110, and W296), but numerous folks I communicate with have reported mixed results IN THAT CHAMBERING ONLY; uniformly good reports in larger cases.

Primers / crimp / OAL, perhaps?

[fjlee]

I've used the simple Lee Loaders for many many years. Shotgun, rifle, and handgun.

I still load with them. I've had the most experience with the LL while loading for 30-06 and 12 gauge.

In my opinion, and based upon some long ago experience, I do NOT think the LL is satisfactory for reloading rifle ammo to be used in anything other than a bolt action. In a pump or semi-auto.......it will just be an unreliable hassle.

The "neck-size only" part of the LL procedure just about ensures that results in a pump action rifle will be totally unsatisfactory. You would have a hard time getting them INTO the chamber, and you'd have a hard time getting them OUT of the chamber.

If you talk to the LL company, I think they will tell you approx. the same thing.

FJ Lee Denver CO

[JayT]

Weshoot2 and fjlee, I thank you for your comments on the Lee loader. Sounds like I've got one unused in 30-06 to sell (or I need to pick up a 30-06 bolt gun )

Weshoot2, I'd always heard Lil'gun praised in the .357 but what you've heard fits better with my experience. Maybe I'll save what's left of my can for the .45 colt (where I've not yet tried it) and stick with the h110 and 2400 in the .357. I've eliminated primers as a possible cause (I just use winchester standard sp's) and don't see Oal as an explanation either. I could mess around with easing off the crimp--I have not tried that yet--but don't see that I'm overcrimping and don't like to go too light for hot loads in a revolver. I guess I'd be suprised if crimping could produce so dramatic a rise in pressure as I'm observing without buckling cases.

I'm much obliged for your all's help. Happy shooting.

JayT