The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 31, 2013, 11:22 PM   #1
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
Pimers for the AR ?

I'm sure this has been asked . I did 5 searches but clearly I did not use the right wording so I started the thread .

No I have not reloaded yet , still waiting on back ordered powder .

I'm starting to see primers come back on the market so I'm going to get some more . I have some wolf small rifle & some wolf small rifle mag primers 2k each . I'm looking to get some different one this time around .

The question is

The AR is the only firearm I need small rifle primers for . Should I get the primers for the AR like CCI #41 or can I use any small rifle primers .

My plan is to shoot comp with a build I'm starting soon and general plinking as well . What should I look for and what should I stay away from ?

I found cci primers for $60 that sounds high should I wait . I'm in CA and the state is about to pass a face to face only through a ffl ammo law . By mid next year and maybe the start of the year we will not be able to buy out of state over the net . They also propose a 500 round limit . My plan is to stock up on as much as I can afford . They also plan to add a .05 cent tax per bullet and I believe on all reloading components as well . That brick of 22lr just doubled in cost
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old July 31, 2013, 11:59 PM   #2
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,583
Quote:
get the primers for the AR like CCI #41
YES
__________________
............
Marco Califo is online now  
Old August 1, 2013, 04:28 AM   #3
GTOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2011
Location: IL
Posts: 210
Quote:
I found cci primers for $60 that sounds high should I wait .
That sounds very high to me. A more normal price is half that.

Any good small rifle magnum primer should be fine. If I was in CA I would definitely be stocking up.
GTOne is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 04:53 AM   #4
rg1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2001
Posts: 1,125
Here's a good long post about primers:
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
rg1 is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 08:14 AM   #5
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
can I use any small rifle primers .
NO, you cannot use the Rem 6 1/2 primers. If you are going to purchase Rem you need the 7 1/2.
steve4102 is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 09:39 AM   #6
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
The #41 primer is a mil spec primer. The military went through development testing with the early AR15’s with commercial primers and did not notice any slamfire issues until the rifle was issued in mass quantities. Slamfires are very rare events but they do happen. The military did two things: they made the firing pin lighter so the kinetic rebound energy was less:

Picture stolen from AR15.com

And they made the primer less sensitive. Ammunition orders for military procurement require a less sensitive primer than commercial primers.

The risk you run by using a more sensitive primer is that occasionally the rifle will discharge in battery. This is exceptionally rare but it does happen. This mechanism positively precludes incidental firing pin contact before the lugs are engaged so you don’t have to worry about out of battery slamfires if the primer is seated below the case head. There are some mechanisms, the ones based on the Garand mechanism, (M1, M1a, M14, M1 carbine, Mini 14) that slamfire in battery and out of battery with a sensitive primer.

Pointing the muzzle down increases the chance of an inbattery slamfire, gravity increases the bolt velocity by a tiny bit. It used to be that in NRA highpower you could rest your loaded rifle on the stool. Then the AR became popular and some AR shooters rested the muzzle on their stool, dropped a round in the chamber, and hit the bolt release. Enough rifles slamfired through the shooting stool than now it is forbidden to rest a loaded rifle on the stool. I consider this a damned bother as I still shoot bolt rifles and M1a’s.

Rules were changed such that if your slamfire round hits in front of the firing line, I forget the distance, you get disqualified. That was never a problem with Garands and M1a's as you single loaded with the rifle pointing at the berm. You pushed a round in the SLED or magazine and tripped the bolt. AR shooters have to use gravity to get their round in the chamber and their rifle is often pointing at their feet when they trip the bolt


So, you can use any primer you want, the more sensitive commercial primers are just a higher risk of a slamfire. You can shoot for years without ever seeing or having a slamfire so do what you want.

The only primer I had issues with were the new brass colored WSR. The old nickel plated WSR had a hard cup and was a great primer. Then around 1999 Winchester redesigned their primers to make them more sensitive. As I was told it was to “combat off center firing pin strikes”. Winchester made the primer cups thinner and they pierced on loads that never bothered the older primer. My AR ate up a handful of firing pins and I have had it with brass WSR.

I had friends that had slamfires in their AR’s with Federals. Federal is now offering a less sensitive primer especially for the AR. I think that is great and I wish they would issue their large rifle mil spec primer as Federal 210’s are the most slamfiring primer on the market in Garands/M1a’s.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...imers-for-ars/

Quote:
September 11th, 2011
New Federal Gold Medal Match Primers for ARs
Federal Ammunition has released a new type of small rifle match primer optimized for AR15s and similar semi-automatic rifles. The new Gold Medal® AR Match Primers, designated GM205MAR, have harder primer cups than the popular Federal 205M match primers. The harder cup is designed to perform better in semi-automatic actions that use free-floating firing pins. A Federal spokesman said that Federal’s “normal” 205M primers were not ideal for use in firearms, such as ARs, with free floating firing pins. Hence Federal designed the new GM205MAR primers. These are available now from major vendors such as Midsouth Shooters Supply, which offers the new GM205MAR primers for $35.22 per thousand.



Quote:
Here's the skinny on the Federal GM205MAR primer.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...M205MAR-primer

My friend at RCBS contacted the expert at Federal, and this is what he was told:
Mix is the same as in the standard small rifle primer. The primer cup is thicker, as is the anvil. The thicker cup and anvil “should” desensitize the primer a bit, and “lessen” the chance of a slam-fire. Federal primers are in general, more sensitive than CCI and less tolerant of firing pin blows during loading into the chambers of the M1 Garand, M1-A, and AR platforms.
I hope this helps shed some light.

Milspec primers for AR's not necessary?? See what the manufacturers have to say.

http://www.atgreloading.com/t1157-mi...rs-have-to-say

by RemMan700 on Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:43 pm
Most people think that the CCI #41 is the only safe primer for fire arms with free floating firing pins such as the AR-15. I contacted several manufacturers to see what they had to say on the subject and if their primers were ok with these types of firearms.

CCI:
Hello,
Could you please tell me what the difference is between the CCI 400 primer and the CCI 41 primer? Does the 41 primer have a thicker/harder cup and less sensitive priming compound then the 400 primer?

Response:
A CCI 400 is our 'standard strength' of small rifle primer.

A CCI #41 primer is a 'magnum' strength of primer, equivalent to our CCI 450 Small Magnum rifle primer, ballistically. The #41 primer also has a feature to help lessen the chance of a slam fire in semi-auto types of firearms. This feature is that there is more distance between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup, creating a slightly less sensitive primer. The #41 primer also has a thicker bottom on the cup than the CCI 400 primer.

Linda Olin
CCI/Speer Technical Services
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501

Remington:
Said their 7 ½ primer is what is used in their ammunition and is safe for firearms with free floating firing pins.

Winchester:
Said their WRS primer was safe for firearms with free floating firing pins and would not cause a slamfire. However they use different primers in ammunition that is for their military contracts.

Federal:
Said that 200 and 205M was not meant for firearms with free floating firing pins but they just came out with a primer for AR’s called the GM205MAR (Gold Medal 205 Magnum AR)
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

Last edited by Slamfire; August 1, 2013 at 09:44 AM.
Slamfire is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 10:28 AM   #7
mohr308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2012
Location: Western New York
Posts: 466
I use the CCI41 primers, never any problems
__________________
Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!
mohr308 is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 10:28 AM   #8
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
around me, cci primers are going for 40-50$, federal 40-45$. but if you have you pay 60$ for buying off the shelf and don't have any other options locally, go ahead and do it, it'll cost you way more to buy online with the hazmat shipping. unless your planning on buying your powder and primers from the same website so you can couple the hazmat/shipping fee, whats 10-15$ extra dollars. there are tens of thousands of brand new reloaders every month right now, its just going to be a little pricey for awhile until reloading supplies catch up with the new reloading demands.

if your in cali, you really need to stock up on primers and powder, i wouldn't feel comfortable w/o 10k primers and 20pds of powder if i lived over there. find you a decent source for lead, i know there isn't any scrap lead in california, but if you can find a good ingot dealer and load up on a couple hundred pounds(shouldnt cost you but a little over a hundred pounds). they would have a tough time restricting your 2nd ammendment(at least for a good while) if you stock up on these items.

sorry, im a crazy prepper in some ways, if i lived in california, i would become very proficient with a bow+arrow.

Last edited by skizzums; August 1, 2013 at 10:36 AM.
skizzums is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 11:28 AM   #9
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,345
Slamfire has some good info. Thanks. I enjoyed the reading.

As for myself, I am not a competition shooter, but do shoot a lot of .223 in an AR. I started using CCI 400 primers way back when, but some of the more educated folks here on TFL suggested using the CCI450 mag primer or the CCI BR small rifle primer when using ball powder like H335.

I was seeing quite a bit of velocity variation using the standard CCI 400. Switching to the 450's brought my velocity SD's and extreme spreads way down. They also gave me another ~ 50 fps with the same load.

I haven't tried the CCI41's, they are not available locally. FYI, I just bought a 1000 CCI 450's for $41.30 (including 5% sales tax) at my LGS.

Good shooting! Better reloading!
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 11:41 AM   #10
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,013
And another good one is the TulAmmo KVB556M, which is NATO spec sensitivity.

Both the TulAmmo primer and the CCI #41 are magnum primers, but the Federal is not. The email I got back from Federal when I inquired about this said the GMM205MAR is the same as the GMM205M except the cup was thicker to reduce sensitivity. They did not tell me the anvil was thicker, and I expect a thicker anvil would move sensitivity in the wrong direction, but I didn't ask, specifically. CCI told me their primer cup and mix are the same as their CCI #450 (SR magnum) primer, but that the feet of the anvil are formed at a wider angle, so the anvil is shorter than a standard CCI anvil, thus reducing sensitivity.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 02:06 PM   #11
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
And another good one is the TulAmmo KVB556M, which is NATO spec sensitivity.
If the Tula small rifle primer shoots as well as do the Tula7.62 primers, I would recommend them.

Incidentally I won a number of medals at Camp Perry with the CCI #41 primers. They shoot well.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old August 1, 2013, 11:45 PM   #12
zcrenna
Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 60
I use TULA KVB-223 primers all the time. No problems in any of the rounds I've loaded for my AR.

Granted, these aren't the regular WOLF Small Rifle Primers (which are rumored to slamfire when used in an AR).
The TULA KVB223 is supposed to be more like the WOLF Small Rifle MAGNUM Primer, which is just a small rifle primer with a thicker cup to prevent against slam-firing.

In summary - TULA KVB-223 primers are good to go
zcrenna is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 12:29 AM   #13
Steve in PA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1999
Location: Northeastern PA
Posts: 755
5 years of shooting CCI #400's and H335, no issues or problems.
__________________
Steve
Steve in PA is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 05:50 AM   #14
rebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 3,881
I am with Steve in Pa, I have been using CCI #400 orimers ever since I bought my first AR and have never had a problem. I have tried the 41's and the bench Rest primers and have found no difference. I am using H335, AR Comp and 3031 powders. I have a lb of Varget that I haven't tried yet. Never had a problem. IMHO primers are a personal preference, whatever works for you and your rifle.
rebs is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 10:18 AM   #15
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
cool thanks guys . sounds like I don't want to use the regular Wolf small rifle primers for the AR but the mags should be fine . I'll use the wolf small rifle primers for my 9mm or save them till i get a bolt gun that uses them.
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 12:40 PM   #16
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve in PA
5 years of shooting CCI #400's and H335, no issues or problems.
CCI 400's are good primers.

Try CCI 450's next time with h335, they may tighten up your groups a bit by bringing your velocities closer together. Better ignition of the H335 equals more consistent powder burn equals less velocity variation equals better groups at distance.

It does help!
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 06:05 PM   #17
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,583
I have had primer perforations using CCI 400's and heavy bullets. That stopped I went to CCI #41.
__________________
............
Marco Califo is online now  
Old August 2, 2013, 06:32 PM   #18
Hundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2013
Posts: 111
thank you for putting up this thread.

I was going to ask this same question. I have been reloading for awhile. Just got my first AR. Very good information here, thank you for taking the time I appreciate it. I think I am going to try to get CCI#41's, but I may get a box of CCI#400 also, because its more available at the moment.

Here is a second question. If you have new 5.56 that has crimped primers, and you remove the primer and the crimp with a tool. Do the CCI primers #41 or #400 fit in OK? I only ask, because I have yet to reload any 5.56.

Thank you again

Jay
Hundy is offline  
Old August 2, 2013, 06:43 PM   #19
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,583
Yes, removing the crimp has no impact on subsequent primer fit.
__________________
............
Marco Califo is online now  
Old August 2, 2013, 08:03 PM   #20
Hundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2013
Posts: 111
Quote:
Yes, removing the crimp has no impact on subsequent primer fit.
Thank you. Hope to have the dies, and decrimping tool soon. Time to go buy some bullets to re-load.
Thank you again

Jay
Hundy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07369 seconds with 10 queries