CZ-75 SP-01 External safety vs decocker

[TunnelRat]

I agree it's generally wise to follow the manufacturer's precautions, yet I carry my .380 Auto CZ 83 magazines with 13 rounds instead of the Instruction Manual saying to load no more than 12, and I routinely insert Q-Tips into my ear canals despite Johnson & Johnson vehemently saying not to do so.

If you think those acts bear the same safety risk as carrying a pistol in a condition not prescribed by the manufacturer then I see no point in engaging in further discussion with you.

I interpret this valid comparison somewhat differently than you do.

Agreed. I don't interpret it as valid. I know that you do. We're at odds on this and I don't see that changing.

And we'll keep going over it until you get it.

We won't. I have no desire to rehash this with you when it's been gone over ad nauseum in previous threads. I made the mistake of responding to you again in this thread. I will refrain from doing so in the future, if for no other reason than it leads to topic drift (this thread isn't about Glocks). Best of luck in your shooting endeavors.

[Limnophile]

If you think those acts bear the same safety risk as carrying a pistol in a condition not prescribed by the manufacturer then I see no point in engaging in further discussion with you.

Nice straw man.

I hear you saying you are unable to refute my claim that carrying a CZ 75 cocked and unlocked is any less safe than carrying a Glock. Both require only a nominal trigger pressure of 6 lb to fire, and both meet CA drop safety standards.

[sigarms228]

No matter how much time one puts into mastering the DA trigger pull, one's SAO groups will, on average, always be tighter than one's DAO groups from that particular DA/SA pistol. It's physics.

If one is truly concerned about one's inability to train to deactivate the safety when bringing the pistol on target (is there any evidence that anyone has ever lost a DGU because of this?), one can always carry in Glock mode -- cocked and unlocked.

At 25 feet in SA I can group about 1.5 inches 10 shots. In DA that is about 3 inches with many of those concentrated in smaller group.

If i am shooting at someone in my house it will almost surely be at distances less then that and my DA accuracy is plenty good to hit in the vital zones.

However my main concern is safety and NOT discharging my pistol when I do not intend to. DA long and heavy trigger pull gives me extra margin of safety in a situation where I have just awoke from deep sleep and adrenaline dump kicks in. No one knows for sure how their training will hold up in such situations. Those who have observed those in such situations have seen a large percentage of trained shooters with their finger on the trigger before they ever intended to shoot.

In the end do whatever you are comfortable with. For me, and many others, that is a DA/SA pistol using DA for the first shot.

[Limnophile]

At 25 feet in SA I can group about 1.5 inches 10 shots. In DA that is about 3 inches with many of those concentrated in smaller group.

Thank you for confirming my statement -- SA groups are always, on average, tighter than DA groups. Although I have never fired any of my CZs in DA, I have done a lot of dry firing at a LaserLight target. Interestingly, my results are identical to yours -- my DA groups are twice the diameter as my SA groups, which means the SA mode is 4-times more precise.

If i am shooting at someone in my house it will almost surely be at distances less then that and my DA accuracy is plenty good to hit in the vital zones.

I agree that your DA performance at the range is more than adequate for your intended purpose, but your SA performance is 4-times better. Fortunately, if you need to fire multiple shots to get the job done, your shot string will he weighted in favor of your SA performance.

However my main concern is safety and NOT discharging my pistol when I do not intend to.

I can't think of a bigger issue in firearms safety than preventing an ND.

DA long and heavy trigger pull gives me extra margin of safety in a situation where I have just awoke from deep sleep and adrenaline dump kicks in.

I agree that a long, heavy DA trigger is an effective safety mechanism. (For those who like to straw man this statement, effective does not mean perfect.)

Interestingly, DA triggers are the reason many LEOs were taught to stage their triggers to try to improve first shot accuracy. Staging a trigger when the target is a person you don't intend to shoot is, of course, a safety violation, and it led to NDs, especially when a cop manually cocked a DA revolver and when departments switched to Glocks. The penchant for trigger staging is the reason NY triggers exist.

It seems that the practice of trigger staging was not abandoned until Roger Enoka published "Involuntary Muscle Contractions and the Unintentional Discharge of a Firearm" in 2003.

No one knows for sure how their training will hold up in such situations. Those who have observed those in such situations have seen a large percentage of trained shooters with their finger on the trigger before they ever intended to shoot.

The best combat training is actual combat. Most civilians and even most cops will never see actual combat, so training is the best we can do, and the more realism and stress imparted during training the more effective it will be.

Christopher Heim, Eckhard Niebergall, and Dietmar Schmidtbleicher published "Involuntary Firearms Discharge -- Does the Finger Obey the Brain?" in 2006. Their study shows that a surprisingly high percentage of LEOs, even highly trained SWAT team members, become inadvertent and inappropriate trigger touchers under stress.

In the end do whatever you are comfortable with. For me, and many others, that is a DA/SA pistol using DA for the first shot.

I agree. I cannot make a case for Condition 2 carry being more or less safe than Condition 1 carry, only that you get better first-shot accuracy, on average, with the latter. If you can achieve DA precision that you have, that difference becomes minimally important.

[Llama Bob]

For any pistol I might have to fight with, condition 1 (cocked and safety on) is far preferred, along with a trigger in the 4.5-5lb range. Consistency of trigger pull, along with practice, is key to accuracy.

If that's not an option, DAO is preferable. It's going to be too heavy, but at least it'll be consistent.

And of course I would never choose to fight with a pistol if a long gun was an option.

[Limnophile]

^ I think the importance of accuracy is underweighted. Given that police shootings result in a hit rate somewhere between 1 out of 6 to 1 out of 3, it seems that accuracy degrades dramatically under actual combat conditions. It is for this reason I avoid overstating accuracy (when assessing probabilities, overconfidence is the kiss of death) and prefer a high capacity sidearm.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

What if the pistol doesn't land on its muzzle but on the rear of the slide and grip?

If your argument is that the likelihood of what I'm describing is next to impossible to happen, then I agree. That doesn't, however, mean that the Glock does not have more internal mechanisms to prevent an accidental discharge from a drop than a hammer fired pistol cocked but with the safety disengaged.

If the gun lands on the rear of the slide and somehow, the firing pin or striker blocking mechanism is magically deactivated -- what's going to make the firing pin or striker suddenly jump UPWARD to strike the primer? Momentum will be sending things in the other direction. If the fall causes it to hit the grip first, that could also push the slide out of battery and momentum will still be moving the critical parts away from the primer and not causing the firing pin block mechanism to be deactivated. With the Glock, you'd still have to finish compressing the striker spring before it can be released -- and I don't think that's going to happen as a result of a drop -- unless the Glock explanation of how the trigger safety works is complete BS. The extra Glock safeties you mention are nice in theory, but they may not really matter. A 110% drop-safe gun isn't really 10% safer than a 100% drop-safe gun.

With a hammer-fired gun, if you disregard the momentum that is pushing things in the wrong direction as the gun hits the ground -- we're still talking about a number of different mechanisms (including the firing pin block) that must be overcome before the hammer can fully drop and send the firing pin forward. If there's a half-cock notch (some guns, including 1911s and CZs, have them) that notch is going to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin. If we don't disregard the momentum of the drop, the internal parts used to deactivate the FPB in most guns will also be moving in the wrong direction to 1) disengage the firing pin block or 2) to send the firing pin towards the primer! This would be true for many SA, DAO, and DA/SA guns. Even the firing pin spring itself will be a barrier for some gun!

We're back to my earlier unanswered question: can you cite an example of a real-world unintended discharge that occurred with a dropped gun that had a properly functioning firing pin block installed? Can you offer a theoretical explanation that would explain how it COULD happen with a drop. As I said earlier, maybe I'm missing something.

All this said, I wouldn't consider carrying any of my SA or DA/SA cocked and unlocked. Not because I don't think they're drop safe, but because most of my SA or DA/SA guns have relatively light triggers, and I wouldn't trust ME to do start with a holstered, unlocked gun if I were stressed and threatened. I will carry my Glock 38 with less concern, even though it doesn't have a manual safety lever, because that trigger is much less easily released than my other guns. But when things go bump in the night, I'm still wary when I grab the Glock from my bedside gunsafe. (I'd wouldn't be unhappy if my Glock had a safety like my Ruger SR9c, but I don't find myself using that safety much, either.)

.

[Limnophile]

If the gun lands on the rear of the slide and somehow, the firing pin or striker blocking mechanism is magically deactivated -- what's going to make the firing pin or striker suddenly jump UPWARD to strike the primer? Momentum will be sending things in the other direction.

As I recall, TR's point is that a drop resulting in the rear of the pistol striking the ground could cause the trigger to move backward enough to actuate. The trigger tab safety on a Glock prevents that from happening. However, the CA drop test protocols take such a scenario into account (per the CA DOJ):

The following six drops shall be performed:
(a) Normal firing position with barrel horizontal.
(b) Upside down with barrel horizontal.
(c) On grip with barrel vertical.
(d) On muzzle with barrel vertical.
(e) On either side with barrel horizontal.
(f) If there is an exposed hammer or striker, on the rearmost point of that device, otherwise on the rearmost point of the weapon.

The CZ 75 B and B variants pass the test, as do Glocks. I am unaware of any empirical evidence indicating one design is more or less drop safe than the other.

All this said, I wouldn't consider carrying any of my SA or DA/SA cocked and unlocked. Not because I don't think they're drop safe, but because most of my SA or DA/SA guns have relatively light triggers, and I wouldn't trust ME to do start with a holstered, unlocked gun if I were stressed and threatened.

But ... but gun safety is all about keeping your booger hook off the bang switch, Dude.

[Walt Sherrill]

As I recall, TR's point is that a drop resulting in the rear of the pistol striking the ground could cause the trigger to move backward enough to actuate.

I'm only vaguely familiar with 1911s, but do know that the Series 80 guns do have a firing pin block. If that gun drops onto it's muzzle, momentum, it seems to me, is going to keep the trigger forward and not send it rearward. If that same hammer-fired gun drops on the grip, I would think a lot of different things would have to be timed just right for the gun to go boom. If the gun drops on the rear of the slide or hits the hammer, and the hammer is somehow released, the hammer may not have a clear path to the firing pin. And I'm not sure it could even fall if the grip safety wasn't depressed -- as trigger movement is at least partially blocked by the grip safety! Someone more familiar with the 1911 design will have to speak up. I think timing is critical -- and all the various parts would have to work together (trigger and grip safety movement and firing pin block mechanism release) for an unintended discharge to occur. That would be an almost perfect storm of interactions that may or may not be easily achieved in a drop.

With many other hammer-fired guns, the trigger pivots, and it's rearward movement causes a trigger bar or connector to move forward. The trigger and the connecting parts all act as a single assembly and the other parts parts are much heavier than the trigger; their momentum, if the gun falls to the rear, hitting the slide or grip, is going to force them all to the rear.

A number of guns (including 1911-type guns and others with firing pin block safety mechanisms) have passed the California drop tests, and they do their tests from a lot of different drop positions. It's not clear to me that a drop (even if it causes trigger movement) will override a gun's firing pin safety mechanism.

[Llama Bob]

Depending on whether you are talking series 80 or 70, 1911s have several features that come into play when dropped.

First is the half-cock notch on the hammer. If a blow to the hammer somehow allows it to pass the sear, it won't get to the point of firing because the sear will engage the notch.

Second is the thumb safety. The sear cannot disengage the hammer if the thumb safety is engaged (and fitted correctly).

Third the grip safety makes it impossible to pull the trigger without depressing the safety first, so no inertial trigger pulls.

In theory a S70 could fire if dropped muzzle down due to the inertia of the firing pin, but this only happens in California drop tests, and can be prevented with any of a series 80 firing pin stop, a Schwartz safety, a light weight firing pin, or by avoiding California.

[Limnophile]

^ The MRI-induced AD of a 1991 (Series 80) defeated all safety mechanisms, including the FPB and the safety lock. That, however, was a very odd set of circumstances that led to that incident. As a result, all MRI patients are now led to a changing room with a locker in which to store valuables (including any firearms), and specifically told not to bring anything metal into the suite.

[Bart Noir]

A 110% drop-safe gun isn't really 10% safer than a 100% drop-safe gun.

Nicely said, Walt. I like your writing skills

In theory a S70 could fire if dropped muzzle down due to the inertia of the firing pin, but this only happens in California drop tests,

Bob, there is another way to get the dropped-gun discharge. If the firing pin spring is weak, and the Pre-Series 80 1911 is dropped on the muzzle, the firing pin may fly forward with enough oomph to fire the round. It is a rare thing but it has happened.

[Anecdote Warning] My friend discovered this when another guy dropped a 1911 next to my friend's foot. Both men learned just how high they could jump but nobody was hurt when the bullet fragmented into the concrete floor.

So he and I are fans of the Series 80 1911 design.

Oh yeah Bob, does the Llama part of your forum name have to do with the critters or the firearms?

Bart Noir

[Cosmodragoon]

A 110% drop-safe gun isn't really 10% safer than a 100% drop-safe gun.

Very good. I often find myself reminding people of how percentages actually work. (I'm also the guy who nails people for saying "quote-unquote" before the thing they mean to quote.) Here we can add a special caveat. Is anything really 100% safe? No, and the best gun safety device really is between your ears.

[Llama Bob]

Oh yeah Bob, does the Llama part of your forum name have to do with the critters or the firearms?

The critters. I've never actually seen one of the guns in person.

I don't have any great dislike of the S80 system (or the Schwartz safety) but I'm not concerned about a properly maintained S70 either.

[wild cat mccane]

You know what really stops me from jumping on the CZ SP-01?

For $30 here, $100 there, and $50 over there you end up with a good trigger: less weight, no outrageous reach, and a reset that is reasonable.

All this can be found on other pistols on the market...and I don't have to purchase aftermarket, install, and lose all the $ in resale.

Just put it in there from the factory.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

All this can be found on other pistols on the market...and I don't have to purchase aftermarket, install, and lose all the $ in resale.

That claim may be true, but I'd argue that nobody is beating a path to any one gun-maker's door to buy all those features in a single-gun that has a price that is comparable (and doesn't also lose value when resold.) That said, I agree that the costs of custom gunsmithing is seldom recoverable when a gun is resold, but most of us don't do that with resale in mind. (But, if you're at all handy, you can do much of the work that adds extra oomph to the gun yourself for relatively modest costs.)

CZs really ought to have better triggers out the door -- the Tanfoglio guns which are quite similar, certainly do -- as do many of the Turkish-made CZ-pattern guns. (The problem with THOSE CZ-pattern guns is that customer service may be a bit hit-and-miss. If you need it, it may not be there.)

That said, except for THE so-so CZ trigger in a NEW CZ, which often improves itself within the first 300-500 rounds (or a lot of dry-firing, whch is cheaper!), the other features, like GREAT ergonomics, aren't so easy to find in other guns.

I've had a bunch of guns, but typically, the guns I've found that are SIGNFICANTLY BETTER than stock CZs also cost SIGNIFICANTLY MORE out of the box, and also lose value with resale.

Which guns did you have in mind when you made that statement? Used guns might be the only way to get there from here.

[GoPappy]

Which guns did you have in mind when you made that statement? Used guns might be the only way to get there from here.

I'd like to see that list too. The SP-01 is high on my list of potential next gun purchases. If there's a list of steel/alloy guns that have a better trigger, fit the hand as perfectly, point as naturally and cost the same as or less than the CZ, I'm interested.

[Limnophile]

Is anything really 100% safe?

Guns are inheremtly dangerous, like many other tools and machines in common use, such as automotive vehicles. But, there are designs that are safer than others and, thus, especially more newbie-friendly.

[Independent George]

Ok, I'll bite.

Who the heck carries a gun into an MRI?

It sounds like this is a documented case, but I'm just scratching my head at the series of events that lead to somebody carrying a friggin' gun into an MRI.

[Walt Sherrill]

I remember reading about it. And there has apparently been more than one instance -- with someone wounded.

In the original case, due to a misunderstanding, an off-duty officer carried his weapon into an MRI suite, and unholstered it to place it on an adjoining cabinet, when it was drawn into the MRI equipment and spontaneously discharged. Nobody was injured, but many were surprised! There's a photo of the semi-auto stuck to the inside if the MRI in one of these links.

http://www.ajronline.org/doi/abs/10.....178.5.1781092

In another case in the Indianapolis area, a similar thing happened, and someone was wounded in the second case cited.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2...ital/78136982/

[wild cat mccane]

Better hammer shape - (CZ) P-09/P07 (funny you put in a CZ trigger from a the cheaper P-09 as an upgrade...)
Better reset - Can't think of one longer than the SP-01...maybe the P30???
Better Ergos - since reach is a real issue in DA for the SP-01, any polymer hammer fired with a changeable backstrap: PX4, P30, P99, P-09, P-07, 2022, VP9, TP9..At the cost of the grips on the SP-01, I'm not sure most are changing them out.
I can't say that the SP-01 had a better trigger than any 92SFs I've felt?

What I'm saying, the parts for the SP-01 cost something. Why not bump it up and not have the pistol good from the get go.

Heck, even the P226 is coming with the SRT trigger for very little more than the stock version. It certainly doesn't cost 400 plus more like a Custom Shop SP-01.

[sigarms228]

O

k, I'll bite.

Who the heck carries a gun into an MRI?

Yeah no kidding. Maybe he thought he had Glock 7 ??

[Limnophile]

funny you put in a CZ trigger from a the cheaper P-09 as an upgrade...

The Omega trigger system is less expensive; eg:

- The MSRP for a 75 B (original trigger) is $612.
- The MSRP for a 75 B Omega is $544.

CZ-USA's pricing system seems quite consumer friendly. They offer a variety of fonfigurations and finishes of the 75 from $544 to $783, and a 75 Shadow Tac II with all the bells and whistles for $@,349. Or, you can get a basic model and get only the upgrades you want from CZ Custom or Cajun Gun Works.

Compare the above prices to a base model of your SIG Sauer P226, which is over $1,000. You can have a well upgraded CZ 75 for much less than that price.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Heck, even the P226 is coming with the SRT trigger for very little more than the stock version. It certainly doesn't cost 400 plus more like a Custom Shop SP-01.

I didn't know we were talking about CUSTOM SHOP SP-01s. A stock CZ SP-01 can be bought, NIB, for about $600 on Gun Broker. Custom enhancements can double or triple the price tag pretty quickly.

You named a bunch of different guns, each with one or two of the key traits, but none with all of them. How do you get the others traits in those guns? Custom Shop guns are custom guns. You pay for that, no matter who does the work.

I don't think H&K offers a gun that matches the features you describe, nor does SIGARMS. Beretta doesn't, either -- although you can pay Wilson Combat to upgrade your factory correct Model 92 if you want something more refined. Some of SIGs X-five and Elite SIGs guns might come close to having all those features, but they are very costly, particularly if you want SAO. Then too, MANY SIG owners add after-market parts or optional parts from SIGARMS to their guns.

APEX makes all sort of upgrades for all sorts of guns. A wide variety of after-market vendors support Glocks, because Glocks don't come from Glock just they way some folks want them...

I've had a bunch of SIGs over the years (a 1911, P220s, P226s, P239s, and even a SAO P226 X-Five Competition and a P220 Match and P220 Super Match.) But a Grey Guns P-228 is the only SIG I own now. While many rave about the SIGs, they just haven't, for me, lived up to all the hype most SIG lovers talk about. My P228 is great, maybe the best SIG I've ever owned, but it's not close to stock and not a lot better than my Sphinx SDP, which is stock except for a $4 hammer spring change.

Were I to try to recreate that P228 with a new M11A1 and have Grey Guns do the same magic on it that they did on the P228 -- their Short Reset Comprehensive Carry Package and Heinie Straight 8 Night sights, I'd have to spend at least $1600 for the gun and the GG enhancements. (I bought mine used with a very low round count for $750. I was lucky.

I can buy a Sphinx SDP NEW for about $850 and all it needs to compete head on with that greatly enhanced semi-custom SIG P228 is night sights. That SDP and some of the Tanfoglio-made Witness CZ-pattern guns are about the only guns I can think of that come close to the CZs with the traits you describe, and with the Witness guns you'd still have to worry about EAA customer service and a somewhat higher price (but not as bad as a Custom Shop price.)

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Better Ergos - since reach is a real issue in DA for the SP-01, any polymer hammer fired with a changeable backstrap: PX4, P30, P99, P-09, P-07, 2022, VP9, TP9.

Or you get a DA/SA version of a SP-01 and 1) start from cocked and locked, 2) install the short-reset trigger upgrade form the CS or CGW, or 3) install much slimmer grips (aluminum). Most of the guns you cited were MUCH different guns and none really set up for competition; the SP-01 was apparently designed for IDPA and USPSA, and that's where you'll see SP-01s most often. You might see a few P-07s or P-09s there, but not many of the others. I can't remember when I last saw a P99 or Px4 or P30 or 2022 in the gun games. As the TP9 get more widely known, you might see it there... It's apparently a very good gun. (If you like polymer, striker-fired weapons.)

[Cosmodragoon]

Who the heck carries a gun into an MRI?

If you carry a gun regularly, you might carry it to your MRI. It's a matter of not carrying it into the MRI after getting that speech about metal objects! Could someone really forget? I suppose if they were there for a head injury with memory deficit, it wouldn't be unreasonable. Otherwise, maybe they didn't take the warning seriously, the technician somehow made the colossal blunder of failing to warn them, or they felt uncomfortable leaving their gun in a cubby or locker in the next room. Whatever the case, I'm glad we all know better!