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August 30, 2012, 11:58 AM | #76 |
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If you, as a concealed carrier, see a person openly carrying an AR-15 into a theatre, do you leave? Or do you yell, HIP, HIP, HURRAY for the RKBA.
What would you actually do? Would you tune up to flee or shoot the guy? This is today's world, not someone carrying a 30-30 into the cafe in the boonies during deer season. Just wanted to ask.
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August 30, 2012, 12:02 PM | #77 |
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All good points Glenn.
It's that line we are being forced to draw in the sand that bothers me. Who gets to draw the line and what are the consequences?
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August 30, 2012, 12:05 PM | #78 |
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What strikes me as hilarious in this thread is thinking about the 1960s and 1970s when it was left-wing activists who were toting the guns in public. The conservative, get-a-haircut crowd was worried, and now look at us. We just don't see how the wheel has turned.
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August 30, 2012, 12:09 PM | #79 | |
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Rosa Parks was protesting a law. If there is no law to protest and you're stated goal is to make Joe Blow more comfortable, this is like the exact opposite of the smart way to do it. |
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August 30, 2012, 12:12 PM | #80 | |
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August 30, 2012, 12:36 PM | #81 |
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Go looking for trouble and you will find it: http://www.volokh.com/2012/08/30/unu...mendment-case/
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August 30, 2012, 12:36 PM | #82 | |
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August 30, 2012, 12:37 PM | #83 |
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My opinion first open carry is not allowed here. Maybe its a American thing but if i seen someone open carry i would be thinking prat look at me with my gun i am a big man. If i could see some advantage carrying this way i might think differently. Concealed carry has saved the life of people here. If they had being carrying open they would have being shot before getting a chance to use it. Open carrying here would just draw unwanted attention and possibly set you up for a bullet.
PS .To me its a bit like someone that does body building. That buys the smallest tightest t shirt and poses waking up and down the street thinking look at me with my muscles. If i saw one and we all have, i think prat same as if someone was open carrying. |
August 30, 2012, 12:43 PM | #84 | |
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Likewise, a LEO can not make you eat pavement (or worse- as in the case of Erik Scott in Las Vegas 2 years ago) just because you have a gun on your hip (or in your IWB holster). Or should not be able to, as it does happen. When there is video of it, there can be negative consequences, and thus there would be less of that. |
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August 30, 2012, 12:44 PM | #85 | |||
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The problem is that many simply assume that carrying a gun openly will help acclimate the public to people carrying guns openly. But no one I've seen have ever come up with any evidence that's the case. n the real world, when commercial enterprises want to influence public opinion, they don't guess. They first test possible strategies with surveys and focus groups.
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August 30, 2012, 01:15 PM | #86 | ||
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On the other hand, subjecting the OC right to a standard, such as one who seeks a confrontation has no basis for complaint , illustrates a fallacy of special pleading where there is resistence to applying it as an actual standard. Responding to a position with an accusation that one who takes it plays into an "ego wannabe role" is nothing less than a fallacy of the argument ad hominem. Employing fallacies in an argument doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong, just that the stated reasoning relies on a fallacy. Quote:
People of a certain age will remember kids riding the bus in NYC with a .22 on the shoulder on their way to school. Things one sees routinely tend not to strike one as a big deal. That there is ample evidence of this principle at work doesn't mean you are wrong in all instances, but there is evidence to support it.
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August 30, 2012, 01:37 PM | #87 | ||||
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; August 30, 2012 at 01:44 PM. Reason: correct typo |
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August 30, 2012, 01:38 PM | #88 |
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Quote. People of a certain age will remember kids riding the bus in NYC with a .22 on the shoulder on their way to school. Things one sees routinely tend not to strike one as a big deal. That there is ample evidence of this principle at work doesn't mean you are wrong in all instances, but there is evidence to support it.
Just because people get used to something because they see it all the time. Doesn't mean they like it or approve of it. |
August 30, 2012, 01:56 PM | #89 | |
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Politicians in CA were scared out of their pantaloons at the sight of Black Panthers carrying rifles in public. The result was the Mulford Act. |
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August 30, 2012, 01:59 PM | #90 |
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Read Gun Fight by Winkler to see how the folks who probably yap about gun rights today freaked out by Black Panthers using open long arm carry to celebrate their 2nd. Amend. rights.
I recall this conversation (not to start an abortion debate - don't). On an interview show, a pro-choice doc was asked about protecting himself. He started to wax poetically about the virtue of a 1911. The anti-abortion guy had a crappola fit, screaming about gun nuts. Not predictable by current political stereotypes. It is all in the context. As I said - if I were in a theatre, place of worship, mall, etc. - and you stroll in with significant exposed armament, I am strolling away with the family and figuring out how to shoot you dead - to be blunt. It is relatively risk problem. Someone who is OC'ing is making a statement. What is the statement? Three Cheers for the RKBA or Die All of YOU who should die because I'm mad over something and have a neurochemical disorder. The abstract right to open carry - not a big deal in the field. I do on private land and hunting vs. the risk profile we now have in public places has to be balanced. In TX, it is legal to stroll around as long as you cover your butt and genitals. Thus, you can wear a flesh colored thong and bicycle round by the school yard. Is that a plan? It's your right. Let's let the kids be used to your proclaiming your legal rights to dress that way. In fact, we had a guy do that down the fancy pants neighborhood - with no PANTS. Cops were called. Now let's say this guy was open carrying in his thong and decided to walk down your street when the school bus was loading up? Three Cheers for the RKBA and NO PANTS! It may be a silly example - but it makes the point that context changes the evaluation of the act.
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August 30, 2012, 02:37 PM | #91 | |||
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Also,I am sure you would not want to rely on a fallacy of argument by authority. Quote:
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August 30, 2012, 02:42 PM | #92 |
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That is an empirical question. We don't really know that in today's world, more exposure to open carry will habituate folks or prime them to be more negative.
Either is possible and probably will happen in some cases. If the balance of folks take it negatively, then the OC is for social change as compared to tactical advantage will be misguided. I can make the case for both processes. I will opine that with rampages occurring periodically you will get what is called an availability cascade where negative attitudes towards seeing guns in public will become viewed as threatening. Guys with guns are just seen as threats. I don't think increasing concealed carry does that as it is seen as defensive and not posturing.
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August 30, 2012, 02:55 PM | #93 | |
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Personally, I find open carry awful on a practical level. When tensions rise, it makes a fellow feel like a target. Beyond my personal sense, we can already see a change in police culture regarding carrying openly. How would one make the public more comfortable with OC without engaging in it? Demonstration that a firearm isn't itself a threat to anyone's safety seems a plausible method of education.
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August 30, 2012, 03:20 PM | #94 | ||||
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August 30, 2012, 03:39 PM | #95 | ||||
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The difference is material. If I seek a confrontation, but do nothing to provide RS, I am not subject to detention. One could give a PO a hard time with a bad attitude, maybe call him names and be an all around jerk, but that wouldn't be RS. In the cited case, the defendant provided RS. Quote:
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August 30, 2012, 03:47 PM | #96 |
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You want proof that people seeing guns on people's hips routinely makes it normal?
Arizona. How many people make "Man w/ a gun!" calls there because someone has a holstered gun? It's normal because it is often done. It the same way out in western portions of Nebraska. If you have a holstered gun, people are not calling the cops..... |
August 30, 2012, 04:13 PM | #97 | |||
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In any case, your characterization is a little overly simplistic. It would be more accurate to say that Embody's conduct, engaged in to provoke a confrontation, was of a nature and sufficient to give rise to a reasonable suspicion. As the court noted, Embody at pg 2:
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August 30, 2012, 04:46 PM | #98 | |
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Open Carry of loaded guns was banned ...... and who is gonna openly carry an empty gun? So nobody did. It was not viewed as normal, thus marginalizing the activists who insisted on trying to excercise their 2A rights. Once again, OhNOES! Scary people who are different from me got GUNZ! and all Open Carry was banned. Pay no attention to that incline, or the grease on your feet there, Californians........ |
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August 30, 2012, 06:14 PM | #99 | |||||||
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That some police behavior was predictable after Embody's behavior gave rise to RS doesn't mean that "seeking a confrontation" is some sort of substitute for articulable RS (itself a pretty low standard). Therefore, the court in Embody does not adopt a rule that one seeking a confrontation cannot complain. Why does that matter in this thread? Because the issue this thread presents involves OCers who have a presumed intent to be confronted by POs. That is distinguishable from conduct giving rise to reasonable suspicion; most people stopped by POs do not intend to provide that, and the intent to do so isn't pertinent to the legitimacy of a stop.
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August 30, 2012, 06:32 PM | #100 | |||
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