2nd shot flyer-Why???

steveNChunter · June 22, 2014, 04:30 PM

I've been doing a lot of load development with my Remmy 700 .308 lately, and I've just gotten it dialed in good enough to notice that each and evey time I shoot a 3-shot group, the 2nd one is a bit of a flyer.

I'm getting great accuracy on shots 1 and 3, usually so close together that it's hard to tell if it's one shot or two. But the 2nd shot usually measures about .700-750 high and left. I'm loading 46.2 gr of RL 15, Sierra 150 gr Pro-Hunter, new Lapua brass, and WLR primers. The rifle has a Boyd's laminate stock on it which floats the barrel. The action screws are torqued to 40 in/lbs. The rifle has not been bedded. It sounds to me like a bedding job is in order if I want to see any better accuracy, but I was wondering if anyone had an idea of something else to try first.

Bart B. · June 22, 2014, 05:43 PM

You're holding the rifle and pulling the trigger differently for that second shot. I'd have to see the details to suggest a solution.

taylorce1 · June 22, 2014, 06:37 PM

I'd try changing the seating depth first. Bedding won't hurt but it may not create the problem either.

steveNChunter · June 22, 2014, 07:52 PM

Bart- that makes sense but it would be a stunning coincidence that I always hold it that certain way on the 2nd shot only. I'll take a pic of a group so you can see an example.

taylorce1- I'm kind of limited on seating depth. I'm seating them to mag length now which is 2.835" OAL but that's about .100 off the lands IIRC. And I don't want to run it single shot since it's a hunting rifle

steveNChunter · June 22, 2014, 08:18 PM

All the groups with this load look very similar to this one. I have tried other charge weights and powders, the only other powder that had similar accuracy was Varget, but the shots were more evenly spaced. If I could stack three shots as tight as those two I'd be pleased

Blindstitch · June 22, 2014, 08:43 PM

What happens if you shoot a 5 shot group?

Longshot4 · June 22, 2014, 09:35 PM

Steve If I were you I would at least glass bed and float. The barrel could be fouling the stock causing it to move to another pressure point. That's all it takes. Five shots give you more to see. I like that load. It could just be the stock. Why beat your self up. Bead and Float Good luck

taylorce1 · June 22, 2014, 10:56 PM

Quote:

taylorce1- I'm kind of limited on seating depth. I'm seating them to mag length now which is 2.835" OAL but that's about .100 off the lands IIRC. And I don't want to run it single shot since it's a hunting rifle

Just because your .100 off the lands, that doesn't mean your rifle won't like them seated deeper. Just because your that far from the lands doesn't mean you're in the node yet for them.

My .243 likes them .130 off the lands, BTW all groups are six shots.

Lucas McCain · June 22, 2014, 11:03 PM

It may be you, when the first one goes where you want it, you may get to confident and not get as good of a sight picture as the first one. Then again is your hold on the second shot really as solid as your first and third after the flyer.
Try shooting 5 shot groups. They may tell you something.

steveNChunter · June 23, 2014, 07:59 PM

I'll try to shoot some 5-shot groups next time I shoot to see what happens. I've only been shooting 3-shot groups because it's a hunting rifle with a sporter barrel and 5-shot accuracy is pretty irrelevant. It also takes awhile between shots for the barrel to cool on these hot days we've been having lately. For that matter if I need more than one shot while hunting I'm either not doing my part or I'm shooting at multiple targets. But for the purpose of figuring out what's going on it will be good to shoot a few 5-shot groups.

If it was something I was doing I would think the flyers would be in different places. But every group looks almost exactly like the one in the picture. Maybe I'm not consistent with my cooling intervals and the barrel is at a different temperature on that shot, I'll time myself next time and hopefully it will be a cloudy or cooler day. It was upper 80's and sunny when I shot these groups.

reynolds357 · June 23, 2014, 08:18 PM

Bart is right, but let someone else shoot it to confirm. When I am having trouble with a rifle, the FIRST thing I do is hand it to another shooter and tell them "shoot it."

Ridgerunner665 · June 23, 2014, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveNChunter

Bart- that makes sense but it would be a stunning coincidence that I always hold it that certain way on the 2nd shot only. I'll take a pic of a group so you can see an example.

taylorce1- I'm kind of limited on seating depth. I'm seating them to mag length now which is 2.835" OAL but that's about .100 off the lands IIRC. And I don't want to run it single shot since it's a hunting rifle

Go shorter...not longer...

Quite often a "2 in 1 out" group will tighten right up by seating the bullet deeper.

Not every barrel likes bullets close to the lands...and some bullets don't like being there either.

Some guns shoot great jumping bullets darn near 1/8" (.125")...or more in many cases.

Can't hurt to try it...

jmr40 · June 24, 2014, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Bart- that makes sense but it would be a stunning coincidence that I always hold it that certain way on the 2nd shot only.

A 2nd shot flyer from human error seems more likely than from any loading or mechanical error. The rifle can't count. Mechanical or loading errors may result in random flyers, but they will be random. This is not random. Many, many problems are really between the shooters ears. You are doing something sub consciously on shot #2.

603Country · June 24, 2014, 07:22 PM

I'm with jmr40. The problem is most likely you doing something that you aren't aware of when you set up to shoot. And I agree that you should go to 5 shot groups and maybe even a 10 shot group or two (dang, I'm sounding like Bart). Three shots doesn't really tell you much unless it's always a tight little group and right where you want it to print.

steveNChunter · June 24, 2014, 08:20 PM

Thanks for the advice. It could very well be me, I'll see if I can get my father to shoot a few groups with it as well and see what happens. I'll post an update ASAP

Metal god · June 27, 2014, 09:00 AM

Here are a couple pics of groups that if I had only been shooting 3 shots I may never had found out my action screws were loose and would come loose after 30 shots or so .

My point is not that your action is loose ( although it could be ) It's that 3 shots is really not enough to see what you and the rifle can do .I have all kinds of 3 shot groups that look just like yours . For load development I start with 4 shot groups ( only because thats what my mag holds ) when I find something I and my rifle shoot well I load up 20 or so and do a few 10 shot groups to confirm it is in fact a good load .

steveNChunter · June 27, 2014, 04:22 PM

I thought about the action screws after seeing the results of the first few groups, so I went in the house and tightened them to 40 in/lbs. it didn't change anything. I had originally tightened them to 35 but I think compression of the wood loosened them up a bit. I still think the wood is compressing a bit because when I re-torque them at 40in/lbs they always tighten just a little bit more. That's what had me in the notion that I may need to bed it. I haven't had a chance to shoot the rifle again but I going to shoot 5 shot groups as well as experiment with seating depth.

Ridgerunner665 · June 27, 2014, 05:21 PM

You really shouldn't tighten action screws tighter than 25 in. lbs. unless the stock has pillars in it....otherwise all you do is compress the wood/plastic.

steveNChunter · June 27, 2014, 06:43 PM

Even with laminate?? I would think they need at least 35

Bart B. · June 27, 2014, 07:07 PM

Hundreds (thousands?) of folks have torqued their Win. 70 stock screws to 60 inch pounds in wood and synthetic stocks with conventional epoxy bedding (no pillars) for decades. And 40 to 50 for Rem 7XX stock screws. And left them there for a week or more before loosening them then retightening them back. That's what seems to make them shoot most accurate.

I'm one of them. 25 inch-pounds on my M70 stock screws makes the rifles shoot improved cylinder bore instead of double-extra-tight full choke.

steveNChunter · June 27, 2014, 10:05 PM

Thanks for the advice Bart. I may tighten mine to 50 before I shoot again

Picher · June 28, 2014, 10:34 AM

The angle of the flyer seems to indicate that the barrel may be touching wood upon vibration. Just because a dollar bill can be slipped between barrel and forend, it doesn't mean that the barrel isn't bouncing off when vibrating at the shot.

You should have at LEAST 1/16" of clearance when free-floating. Also, if you increase stock screw tightness and wood compresses, it reduces clearance you may previously have had.

June 22, 2014, 04:30 PM	#1
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	2nd shot flyer-Why??? I've been doing a lot of load development with my Remmy 700 .308 lately, and I've just gotten it dialed in good enough to notice that each and evey time I shoot a 3-shot group, the 2nd one is a bit of a flyer. I'm getting great accuracy on shots 1 and 3, usually so close together that it's hard to tell if it's one shot or two. But the 2nd shot usually measures about .700-750 high and left. I'm loading 46.2 gr of RL 15, Sierra 150 gr Pro-Hunter, new Lapua brass, and WLR primers. The rifle has a Boyd's laminate stock on it which floats the barrel. The action screws are torqued to 40 in/lbs. The rifle has not been bedded. It sounds to me like a bedding job is in order if I want to see any better accuracy, but I was wondering if anyone had an idea of something else to try first. __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 22, 2014, 06:37 PM	#3
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,242	I'd try changing the seating depth first. Bedding won't hurt but it may not create the problem either. __________________ NRA Life Member

June 22, 2014, 07:52 PM	#4
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Bart- that makes sense but it would be a stunning coincidence that I always hold it that certain way on the 2nd shot only. I'll take a pic of a group so you can see an example. taylorce1- I'm kind of limited on seating depth. I'm seating them to mag length now which is 2.835" OAL but that's about .100 off the lands IIRC. And I don't want to run it single shot since it's a hunting rifle __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 22, 2014, 08:18 PM	#5
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	All the groups with this load look very similar to this one. I have tried other charge weights and powders, the only other powder that had similar accuracy was Varget, but the shots were more evenly spaced. If I could stack three shots as tight as those two I'd be pleased __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 22, 2014, 11:03 PM	#9
Lucas McCain Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2013 Location: Callaway, MN Posts: 361	It may be you, when the first one goes where you want it, you may get to confident and not get as good of a sight picture as the first one. Then again is your hold on the second shot really as solid as your first and third after the flyer. Try shooting 5 shot groups. They may tell you something. __________________ If you have time to do it twice, then you have time to do it once right and put your name on it

June 22, 2014, 05:43 PM	#2
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	You're holding the rifle and pulling the trigger differently for that second shot. I'd have to see the details to suggest a solution.

June 22, 2014, 08:43 PM	#6
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,692	What happens if you shoot a 5 shot group?

June 22, 2014, 09:35 PM	#7
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Steve If I were you I would at least glass bed and float. The barrel could be fouling the stock causing it to move to another pressure point. That's all it takes. Five shots give you more to see. I like that load. It could just be the stock. Why beat your self up. Bead and Float Good luck

June 23, 2014, 07:59 PM	#10
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	I'll try to shoot some 5-shot groups next time I shoot to see what happens. I've only been shooting 3-shot groups because it's a hunting rifle with a sporter barrel and 5-shot accuracy is pretty irrelevant. It also takes awhile between shots for the barrel to cool on these hot days we've been having lately. For that matter if I need more than one shot while hunting I'm either not doing my part or I'm shooting at multiple targets. But for the purpose of figuring out what's going on it will be good to shoot a few 5-shot groups. If it was something I was doing I would think the flyers would be in different places. But every group looks almost exactly like the one in the picture. Maybe I'm not consistent with my cooling intervals and the barrel is at a different temperature on that shot, I'll time myself next time and hopefully it will be a cloudy or cooler day. It was upper 80's and sunny when I shot these groups. __________________ DEO VINDICE Last edited by steveNChunter; June 23, 2014 at 08:05 PM.

June 23, 2014, 08:18 PM	#11
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Bart is right, but let someone else shoot it to confirm. When I am having trouble with a rifle, the FIRST thing I do is hand it to another shooter and tell them "shoot it."

June 24, 2014, 07:22 PM	#14
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I'm with jmr40. The problem is most likely you doing something that you aren't aware of when you set up to shoot. And I agree that you should go to 5 shot groups and maybe even a 10 shot group or two (dang, I'm sounding like Bart). Three shots doesn't really tell you much unless it's always a tight little group and right where you want it to print.

June 24, 2014, 08:20 PM	#15
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Thanks for the advice. It could very well be me, I'll see if I can get my father to shoot a few groups with it as well and see what happens. I'll post an update ASAP __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 27, 2014, 09:00 AM	#16
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Here are a couple pics of groups that if I had only been shooting 3 shots I may never had found out my action screws were loose and would come loose after 30 shots or so . My point is not that your action is loose ( although it could be ) It's that 3 shots is really not enough to see what you and the rifle can do .I have all kinds of 3 shot groups that look just like yours . For load development I start with 4 shot groups ( only because thats what my mag holds ) when I find something I and my rifle shoot well I load up 20 or so and do a few 10 shot groups to confirm it is in fact a good load . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

June 27, 2014, 04:22 PM	#17
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	I thought about the action screws after seeing the results of the first few groups, so I went in the house and tightened them to 40 in/lbs. it didn't change anything. I had originally tightened them to 35 but I think compression of the wood loosened them up a bit. I still think the wood is compressing a bit because when I re-torque them at 40in/lbs they always tighten just a little bit more. That's what had me in the notion that I may need to bed it. I haven't had a chance to shoot the rifle again but I going to shoot 5 shot groups as well as experiment with seating depth. __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 27, 2014, 05:21 PM	#18
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	You really shouldn't tighten action screws tighter than 25 in. lbs. unless the stock has pillars in it....otherwise all you do is compress the wood/plastic.

June 27, 2014, 06:43 PM	#19
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Even with laminate?? I would think they need at least 35 __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 27, 2014, 07:07 PM	#20
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Hundreds (thousands?) of folks have torqued their Win. 70 stock screws to 60 inch pounds in wood and synthetic stocks with conventional epoxy bedding (no pillars) for decades. And 40 to 50 for Rem 7XX stock screws. And left them there for a week or more before loosening them then retightening them back. That's what seems to make them shoot most accurate. I'm one of them. 25 inch-pounds on my M70 stock screws makes the rifles shoot improved cylinder bore instead of double-extra-tight full choke.

June 27, 2014, 10:05 PM	#21
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Thanks for the advice Bart. I may tighten mine to 50 before I shoot again __________________ DEO VINDICE

June 28, 2014, 10:34 AM	#22
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	The angle of the flyer seems to indicate that the barrel may be touching wood upon vibration. Just because a dollar bill can be slipped between barrel and forend, it doesn't mean that the barrel isn't bouncing off when vibrating at the shot. You should have at LEAST 1/16" of clearance when free-floating. Also, if you increase stock screw tightness and wood compresses, it reduces clearance you may previously have had.