First time with a shotgun - looking for more

[zip22]

I had a great weekend where I was introduced to multiple shotguns. I started out at 5 stand with just some introductory clay shooting and finished up with a round of sporting clays. I had a great time, but my shoulder/ chest is one huge bruise. I think part of it was my form, but I'm wondering about fit.

I was able to shoot a Smith & Wesson 1000, Browning A5, Beretta Onyx, some sort of side by side, Mossberg 500, and I think a BPS.

During my instruction at 5 stand, the instructor said he didn't care where the butt of the gun was, my cheek bone should be glued to the stock. It was difficult to have my cheek on the stock and still see the bead so I usually ended up having the butt a bit higher than I would think it should be on my chest.

I'm looking at buying a shotgun. I'm thinking my budget will be $1000 - $1300. I am open to used, but I think new would be easier since I won't really know what issues to look for on a used gun. Should I look for something with an adjustable stock so I can move it to where I need to be or am I doing something wrong?

I went to the store and held a Browning Maxus, Beretta AL391 (also Tenkys and Gold edition), Benelli sport and supersport (also Vinci and SBE), Mossberg 930, Stoeger M2000, Remington 1100, and a few others I can't remember. The higher end guns did seem nicer. All 3 felt really nice. For some reason I like the slim fore end of the Benelli sport. I liked that I could sort of wrap my fingers around it. I don't have much experience so I'm not sure if I should trust that feeling as something I will appreciate down the road or not. A few of the models seemed slightly better at having my cheek glued and still seeing the bead (can't recall which ones - probably should have written that down).

Can I get some guidance on fit and what models I should look at? I will only be using this for clays. The maxus seems to have a large general following. I seem to see the AL391 mentioned frequently as a clay gun. I like the lower maintenance of the Benelli. I'm not sure if these will be better for a beginner than a much cheaper 930 or 1100.

The other model that i had hoped to see was a Franchi I-12 sport.
http://www.franchiusa.com/firearms/i-12_sporting.php
It seems like it would get the Benelli feel for around $400 less.

[hogdogs]

Some of these guys will have answers for you...
I bet at least one will suggest getting "fitted" by a pro gun fitter type dude...

Brent

[dawico]

Most if not all Benellis come with shims so you can adjust the stock to better fit your body. I have loved every Benelli I have ever owned. Look at the SBEII if you may ever see 3 1/2" shells in your future, and mine feeds 2 3/4" target loads perfectly. The Comfortech stock is an amazing thing.

As with any shooting sport, you should be consistant with your mount. That bruise should be the size of a butt pad. Don't worry, that will come with practice and your shoulder will toughen up.

[zippy13]

zip22,
For a sporting gun, within your budget, you may be better served by a used O/U instead of a new stick gun (pump or auto). Shooting clays, a stick gun is at a great disadvantage: its second shot must be with the same choke as the first. This isn't a problem with Skeet's close-in targets, but may be a big handicap in the other clay sports.

Brent is correct, have your new gun fitted by a pro. Guns don't have to have all of those gimmick adjusters, a simple wood stock can be adjusted by a pro. You wouldn't buy a new suit without expecting to have it altered to fit you perfectly -- the thing same applies to shotguns.

[oneounceload]

butt a bit higher than I would think it should be on my chest.

I'm hoping you mean in the pocket of your shoulder/collarbone area. If you're bruised, then whatever gun gave you that bruise did not fit properly.

As your eyes focus on the target, your peripheral vision should not see the barrel or rib - you'll be shooting over the target. Guns with mid beads help as you premount the gun to check your alignment, but again, they should disappear from view once you call "pull".

A pump is the least expensive gun that is doable for clay games like skeet, 5-stand, and sporting, but it is also, IMO, the worst choice. Working the slide tends to have most folks pulling the gun off the target flight line causing many second target misses.

Where I live, the Beretta 390/391 is the semi of choice and is used by approximately 30% of the shooters. The Over/Under is the king of sporting guns. The reasonable prices of Browning and Beretta makes them the dominant ones, while folks a little better off are into Perazzi and Kreighoff.

As Zippy mentioned, the ability to utilize two different chokes MAY be a benefit - it all depends on the courses you shoot at. There are some where I have used .005 and .010 (SK/IC) for the entire course, others may get .010 and .020 (IC/M), whil;e one course has some stations where .020 and .030 (M/IM or F).

The trend I am seeing compared to the early days of sporting leans towards just using one of three chokes - IC, LM, M and leaving it in the gun. This obviously helps the semi shooter with one barrel. What those folks DO change is their ammo - they'll use something like 1oz of 8's for everything except rabbits and far targets where they'll switch to 7-1/2. Some even carry a box of spreader loads for something really in your face.

I say all this because stock fit is crucial - more so than gun type. If the semi is the gun with the best fit, get the semi.

My wife wanted to start shooting and she was convinced an O/U was what she needed. After trying a friend's Beretta A400 semi, she liked it so much, we bought that instead; so keep an open mind, shoot as many as you can, pick the best one, remembering that stocks can be tweaked with aftermarket items if necessary.

A professional fitting can greatly reduce the hunt time for the right gun.

Good luck!

[BigJimP]

Your first outing is tough to evaluate - the bruising can come from all kinds of things - not hanging onto the gun firmly, not putting the gun into your shoulder pocket, lifting your head, too much drop at the comb, too much drop at the heel ....etc ...

In terms of expense - I think the Beretta semi-autos might be your best value. Some of them come with shims for some adjustability. Benelli is another part of the Beretta family - and I really like it / and I really like the Super Sport ( synthetic, bright receiver, with the comfort tech system in it ) but they're retailing new for around $ 1,875 up here - and the Beretta 390 or 391 series is in the $ 1,200 range. Beretta is a gas gun / so a little less recoil / Benelli is an inertia gun - so a little more recoil unless you have the comfort tech system in it ( and the wood stock guns don't have it ). Inertia guns shoot a lot cleaner too ...

Adjustability is your key ... the gun that I see fit the most people with adjustability - is a parallel comb gun / so comb is parallel to the rib - and then you can move the comb up or down to change the point of impact. A few of the Beretta semi's have parallel combs / and there are some O/U's like the Browning Citori XS Skeet or XS Special.

Honestly, you really need to see if you can shoot 5 or 6 more times / then evaluate your gun mount, etc ....but if you really want a gun now / I would say go with the Beretta semi-auto in your budget range. If you can stretch your budget to around $ 2,500 then look for a parallel comb O/U like a Browning XS Skeet ---and there are a lot of them used out there ( new they're around $3,000 with the adj comb cut into the gun ) / but I happened to see a used one yesterday for $1,400 ( wood had a bunch of scratches / gun needed to be tightened up a little / but it was serviceable with some work.) Used XS Skeet models in good shape are around $2,250 - $2,500 usually.

Whatever you pick will be an entry level gun ...shoot it for awhile ...get some more instruction / have someone help you on fit / take the gun to the pattern board ... figure out what gross weight you like, barrel length, length of pull, etc But the Beretta or the Browning are both guns you can easily sell down the road too.

"Fit" is a simple concept - meaning the guns has a point of impact where you are looking / because your eye ( when you mount the gun / is the rear sight ). Shotguns don't come in one size fits all / but all mfg's try to make what they think are guns that will fit many people. But Beretta, vs Browning, vs ?? all have a different idea of that concept ( and the size of the grip, etc ). Most gun counters - know little to nothing about the concept.

You don't need a "sporting" gun to shoot sporting ...thats just "marketing" for what the mfg's think you need... Some shooters shoot "Trap" style guns for everything, some shoot "Skeet" style guns for everything, some shoot "field" styled guns for everything - so don't get hung up on what its called.

My primary "Sporting, bird hunting and skeet guns" are all Browning Citori XS Skeet models, with 30" barrels at around 8 1/2 lbs ...in 12, 20, 28ga and .410 .... but I also like the adjustability of the Benelli synthetics / super sport models - where you can snap on a different length recoil pad to change the length of pull, or a comb insert pad to raise the comb - and they have the shims. Weight is your friend / a heavier gun recoils less for any given load.

[RoscoeC]

In terms of expense - I think the Beretta semi-autos might be your best value. Some of them come with shims for some adjustability.
...
Beretta 390 or 391 series is in the $ 1,200 range. Beretta is a gas gun / so a little less recoil / Benelli is an inertia gun - so a little more recoil unless you have the comfort tech system in it ( and the wood stock guns don't have it ). Inertia guns shoot a lot cleaner too ...

As everyone here knows, I am a huge fan of the Beretta 390 /3901 / 391 gas operated shotguns. This is an excellent starter as BigJimP so aptly pointed out. Used 390s can be had on Gunbroker from around $495.00. Nice soft shooter. Dead nuts reliable, and you can most likely get your money back when the time comes to move on to something else. If it doesn't have the shims, they can easily be obtained. I ordered some from Cole's Gunsmithing.

Good luck.

The Bass Pro catalog was in my mail box when I got home. The 3901, 26" barrel, synthetic furniture is on sale for $599.00. Best value there is in an autoloading shotgun, in my opinion.

[zippy13]

I concur with RoscoeC and BigJimP, if you're going to get a sporting stick gun, the Beretta autos are hard to beat. When the new hard hitting and soft kicking Beretta gas gun was first introduced, it was an immediate success among the competitive Skeet shooters. The Beretta soon dethroned the venerable R-1100 as the Skeet auto of choice and gained favor in the other clay sports. As oneounceload mentioned, the over/under is king of the clay sports (with the exception of trap) and the Beretta is the favorite among those not using an O/U.

[zip22]

The beretta is at the top of the list but I'm still interested in the Franchi.

Also, looking at Browning's O/U options I'm wondering if there are any problems with the Cynergy or if the Citori just gets the attention because it is the older more reputable model.

Are any of the cheaper O/Us good options or would an auto be better in the $1000 and under range?

[oneounceload]

Are any of the cheaper O/Us good options or would an auto be better in the $1000 and under range?

IMO, go with a quality semi - even if used, over a cheaply-made O/U. This is especially true since you're getting into the clay games where reliability and longevity are crucial.

[BigJimP]

In the $1,000 range - go with the semi-auto options ... most of the O/U's in that price range are a real "hit and miss" problem on quality and durability.

[RoscoeC]

You are getting great advice from these learned gentlemen. I will chime in on the Cynergy. I bought one in February. I got the Cynergy Classic Sporting with 30" Barrels and adjustable comb. I absolutely love this shotgun. I have somewhere in the 6000 round range through the gun. It is a quality gun. Made by Miroku, the same folks that make the Citori. I paid $1600.00 for mine. I even hit the clays about 70% of the time!!!

The Citori has been around a long time and has a sterling reputation. However, fit is critical. Lots of folks think the Citori feels like a railroad tie. Others wouldn't have anything else. I like the Cynergy because it is lower in profile and is more "Beretta like" in its fit and feel. So, I am thinking many Citori lovers won't cotton up to the Cynergy, and vice versa. Also the Cynergy takes off in some new directions from the Citori. It has a mechanical trigger rather than an inertia one, it is striker fired, it doesn't have the traditional trunion and it locks with pins that protrude from the breech face (like Beretta), rather than the more traditional locking system of the Citori. This is the feature that allows the barrels to be lower in the receiver, and has been very durable and reliable on the Beretta guns. The only real complaint I have heard about the Cynergys is that they have had some broken extractors especially on some of the smaller gauges particularly the .410.

And that's what I know about that.

[zip22]

Did you go with the Classic stock, or the modern looking Inflex?

Edit: nevermind! re-read and saw my answer.

[zip22]

Has anyone followed the Cynergy updates? looking at the Sporting version, I have seen some places say it is chambered for 2.75", but Browning's website says 3". Was there a recent change?

[zippy13]

It depends on the model you get.

It's typical, with most manufacturers, to chamber their field (and "all-purpose") guns in 3-inch and their target guns in 2-3/4. With the current Cynergy guns, the trap versions are chambered for 2 3/4-inch target shells, the others are 3-inch.
Note: All of the 28-ga guns are 2 3/4-inch 'cause they don't make 3-inch 28-ga shells.

Perhaps Browning feels they will gain more sales by making the "sporting" models 3-inch for field use than the sales they will loose from target shooters who don't want 3-inch chambers. With the exception of the trap models, the Cynergy "sporting" models are still general purpose guns with some of the features you'd expect in target specific guns. If they marketed a Cynergy "Skeet" model, it would probably have 2 3/4-inch chambers like the trap models.

With "Trap" and "Skeet" specific shotguns, most folks have an idea of what they are going to get; but, the term "sporting shotgun" really doesn't tell you much. It's kind of like when the term is applied to cars and trucks, just what does "sports" mean? It may be just a sales gimmick.

[BigJimP]

I'm with Zippy on this one ....most of this "sporting" vs "Skeet" vs "field" is just marketing speak ....

Personally, for Sporting Clays, Skeet and bird hunting ....I use the same guns --- all "Skeet" models ... ( Browning Citori XS Skeet models, with 30" barrels ) ...because the guns really fit me well. ( For Trap I go to a longer and heavier gun ) ....but I don't need a "sporting gun", a "field gun" and a separate "skeet gun"...

In terms of chamber length / 2 3/4" gives me everything I need ( in any gague ) --with the exception of waterfowling, where I want a 3" gun ...

[RoscoeC]

The Cynergy Classic Sporting model that I have has 2 3/4" chambers.

[zippy13]

Thanks for the heads-up, RoscoeC.

I based my comments on the Cynergy chambers on data from Browning's on line specs. I forgot to mention, the specs for the Classic Sporting models preface each model numbers with "new". So, it seems the change from 2 3/4 to 3-inch chambers is fairly recent.

Hopefully, this answers zip22's question.

[zip22]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking.

When the Cynergy is listed as a Euro model, are they talking about the non-Classic models with the Inflex stock or is it something else completely? Browning doesn't seem to use the "Euro" term (at least anymore).