9mm handloads for -carbine rifles-

Sevens · May 9, 2009, 09:21 AM

At the risk of cross-posting (rifle forum not specific to reloaders...) I just ordered a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm with the Glock magazine.

So this will be a 16-inch barrel rifle in 9mm, and I'm wondering if there is anything different I should consider for handloads?

Also, for anyone who has experience with the Kel-Tec specifically, does it like or dislike cast lead? There's a hopping Kel-Tec forum where many enthusiasts discuss this rifle that likely has my answers and I will use that resource as well, but TFL H&R is my home, so I wanted to see if anyone here has some experience with it first.

I have enough FMJ to get me started. Even have some plated RN, and lots of 125-gr LRN that works beautifully through my Taurus PT-99AF, but I'm completely open to ideas for handloading 9mm for 16-inch barreled carbines.

45Marlin carbine · May 9, 2009, 09:58 AM

I have the Marlin Camp 9mm, loaded some apparently hard-hitting loads with jhp Golden Sabre slugs over Power Pistol. don't have a chrono so can't provide any fps readings but they come outt'a there with a 'crack'.
factory ammo doesn't do that.

Ozzieman · May 9, 2009, 12:36 PM

I have the Beretta Storm Carbine in 9mm and reload for it.
I have had very good luck with the Hornady XTP 115 Gr bullet. It has been very reliable and out to 50 yards on sand bags will hold 2 inch groups.
I have had best luck with the Hornady using Win 231. It’s clean and had been flawless. You have to bell the case a little extra, the front of the bullet is a little soft and if you over force it into the case it will deform it.
It’s not really a problem just something to watch for.

I am working on a load using a heavy lead bullet from Penn bullets for lower velocity rounds but its still in the building process. Check out the following information on the bullet. It has a lot of potential for a subsonic round that has a lot of energy and will save barrel life. It’s a 147 GR Round nose flat point bevel base bullet. I will let you know how they work out.
http://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html
I have shot a lot of his 120 Gr bullet in the same gun and in my Beretta 8000. They are hard enough to push up to 1000 fps and I have had no leading problems.

Sevens · May 9, 2009, 01:01 PM

Good info, especially on the delicate nature of the XTP's, I wasn't at all aware of that. For me, I'll be plinking and little else with this rifle, so I don't see me chasing down any hollow points, but I am intrigued with what Penn has to say about their 147gr RN-FP bullet. I don't need subsonic, but I like accuracy and a heavier bullet means MORE plinking fun!

On the bad side, I see that Penn still has half their selections on the "suspended" list, which sucks, but I can't say I'm surprised. I will give him props for being up front about the fact that current conditions won't allow him to make the odder stuff, and I really do understand why he's had to go this route. But I still look at his hard cast .30 Carb bullet and just wish I could get a quick 5 hundo of them and get 'em twirl.

Hey 45Marlin-- I love Power Pistol, and would be happy if I could craft all my Sub2K ammo with this powder.

Crosshair · May 9, 2009, 02:12 PM

If you want to try and get some loads that take advantage of the longer barrel while still being useful in a handgun, here is my advice.

Loading for a blowback action is different than loading for a locked breech. you are existentially loading for two projectiles, the bullet and the bolt. When going for max performance you want the bullet to get maximum velocity before you loose the occlusion at the breech provided by the case.

Bullets 115 grain or lighter only, anything heavier and you're just going to be wasting your time as any gains will be minuscule at best. There was SOME potential with 124 grain bullets, but I didn't feel like developing that when 115 grain bullets were giving me great performance.

Powder in the Blue Dot burn range are the best I have found for 9mm. Go too fast and you hit max pressure, too slow and your pressure curve is too long and you loose the occlusion at the breech as the case is extracted, giving a nice fireball at the wrong end of the gun. (Nothing too dangerous except having burning powder thrown in your face.)

Load as close to max OAL as possible and have a light crimp. Helps to improve consistency in my experience, which runs counter to the thought that you need a heavier crimp for slower powders. You experience may differ here. Use what works.

zxcvbob · May 9, 2009, 02:35 PM

You'll need kind-of light bullets (115 to 127 grains) because otherwise there won't be enough room in the case for powder. Use a mid-slow pistol/shotgun powder like AA#7, Power Pistol, or WSF. You are still not going to get as much velocity as with a long-slide pistol.

Cast bullets might be better because the barrel friction is less.

bfoosh006 · May 9, 2009, 04:24 PM

Viht. shows a HOT load for the 147 XTP, certainly the fastest I've ever seen published, 1207 fps with their 3N38. And that is out of a 4" barrel... I haven't shot it out of a barrel longer than 5" (1245 fps !) but it should do very well.http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_...oguide2009.pdf

45Marlin carbine · May 9, 2009, 07:10 PM

I respectfully disagree with the 3 above replys, give PP a try under 124 gr GS and figure on it.
load just a few for a try, no need to load a box-full. you'll like it.

Sevens · May 9, 2009, 09:54 PM

Pretty interesting, never thought about the effect of the breech unlocking and how/when the bullet is out of the tube. For certain, I do NOT want a classic Blue Dot fireball coming from the breech end of the rifle. Though it would likely keep my eyebrows trimmed nicely.

Blue Dot is one of the "fire-ballin'-est" powders out there. You can light up the sky with BD in 10 and .30 Carb.

One thing I'll point out:

Quote:

want to try and get some loads that take advantage of the longer barrel while still being useful in a handgun

Nope, not necessary for me here... I can make fine ammo for the handgun, this stuff will be for the carbine and I don't need any compatibility between the two. The fact that I have a whole lot of 9mm brass is one of the reasons I was attracted to this rifle in the first place, and the brass is all the compatibility I need here.

Also, like all of my handloads in all of my calibers, I really have no need or desire to get the "most" out of them with regards to velocity or energy.

What I'm looking for is the best accuracy with a nod to frugality. If I can make some mid-level or cheaper bullets return great accuracy with a moderate powder charge weight, that right there will end up being my pet load.

Not saying I won't try different things... I have a decent pool of powders from which to choose. (I think I will actually try Unique... again... even though I'm one of only six people on earth that hates Unique...)

I'll see what the Kel-Tec forum guys have experienced with cast lead slugs in this platform.

Ozzieman · May 10, 2009, 09:04 AM

I respectfully disagree with "Load as close to max OAL as possible and have a light crimp"
I personally don’t crimp my rounds, I use a taper crimp and I use a very firm crimp. The max OAL I have no problem with and it’s a good idea if you know you gun well.
Since the Beretta has such a heavy bolt I want the bullet to enter the chamber easily and I don’t want any bullet set back which can be dangerous if you load to max levels.
Personally I don’t load to max levels but since I had a 45 acp that had a bullet set back deep into the case years ago I always use a firm taper crimp on all of my auto that I reload for.
When it happened it didn’t feel right when I shot it (second round that day), when I picked up the case I saw that it had pressure signs that scared the you know what out of me, and it was a mid pressure round. Checking the next round that was in the chamber I noticed it had set back. I grant you this was an error on my point but it stopped me from using standard crimp dies and went with taper crimp from that time on.
The idea of the heavier bullet was not my idea but others that I have talked to that have MP5, using the heavier bullets at lower velocities but getting the same over all energy will extend barrel life.
Also the longer bullet will stabilize better in the barrel and should????? prove more accurate,,, I hope.

Once I get a load worked out with 231 I will try a slower powder but I just have a real like for 231 for the reliability of its burn and the way it burns so clean.
For me reloading is does more than just allowing me to shoot more, it’s the experimentation that I really enjoy, and if all I wanted to do was pull the trigger,,, I would stay with the XTP bullet that works so well, but being an engineer I cant leave anything alone.

45Marlin carbine · May 10, 2009, 09:54 AM

try some Golden Sabre slugs when/if you can find them they shoot tightest groups in my Marlin but due to point/cavity shape it's difficult to set the oal to the nth degree, I allow 'em a tad long as a result just so's they function out of the mag OK.

Crosshair · May 10, 2009, 11:25 AM

I should mention that the Blue Dot is not idea for a handgun, but was for carbine loads that would work in a handgun if needed.

May 9, 2009, 09:21 AM	#1
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	9mm handloads for -carbine rifles- At the risk of cross-posting (rifle forum not specific to reloaders...) I just ordered a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in 9mm with the Glock magazine. So this will be a 16-inch barrel rifle in 9mm, and I'm wondering if there is anything different I should consider for handloads? Also, for anyone who has experience with the Kel-Tec specifically, does it like or dislike cast lead? There's a hopping Kel-Tec forum where many enthusiasts discuss this rifle that likely has my answers and I will use that resource as well, but TFL H&R is my home, so I wanted to see if anyone here has some experience with it first. I have enough FMJ to get me started. Even have some plated RN, and lots of 125-gr LRN that works beautifully through my Taurus PT-99AF, but I'm completely open to ideas for handloading 9mm for 16-inch barreled carbines. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 9, 2009, 12:36 PM	#3
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I have the Beretta Storm Carbine in 9mm and reload for it. I have had very good luck with the Hornady XTP 115 Gr bullet. It has been very reliable and out to 50 yards on sand bags will hold 2 inch groups. I have had best luck with the Hornady using Win 231. It’s clean and had been flawless. You have to bell the case a little extra, the front of the bullet is a little soft and if you over force it into the case it will deform it. It’s not really a problem just something to watch for. I am working on a load using a heavy lead bullet from Penn bullets for lower velocity rounds but its still in the building process. Check out the following information on the bullet. It has a lot of potential for a subsonic round that has a lot of energy and will save barrel life. It’s a 147 GR Round nose flat point bevel base bullet. I will let you know how they work out. http://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html I have shot a lot of his 120 Gr bullet in the same gun and in my Beretta 8000. They are hard enough to push up to 1000 fps and I have had no leading problems. Last edited by Ozzieman; October 3, 2012 at 04:14 PM.

May 9, 2009, 01:01 PM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Good info, especially on the delicate nature of the XTP's, I wasn't at all aware of that. For me, I'll be plinking and little else with this rifle, so I don't see me chasing down any hollow points, but I am intrigued with what Penn has to say about their 147gr RN-FP bullet. I don't need subsonic, but I like accuracy and a heavier bullet means MORE plinking fun! On the bad side, I see that Penn still has half their selections on the "suspended" list, which sucks, but I can't say I'm surprised. I will give him props for being up front about the fact that current conditions won't allow him to make the odder stuff, and I really do understand why he's had to go this route. But I still look at his hard cast .30 Carb bullet and just wish I could get a quick 5 hundo of them and get 'em twirl. Hey 45Marlin-- I love Power Pistol, and would be happy if I could craft all my Sub2K ammo with this powder. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 9, 2009, 02:12 PM	#5
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	If you want to try and get some loads that take advantage of the longer barrel while still being useful in a handgun, here is my advice. Loading for a blowback action is different than loading for a locked breech. you are existentially loading for two projectiles, the bullet and the bolt. When going for max performance you want the bullet to get maximum velocity before you loose the occlusion at the breech provided by the case. Bullets 115 grain or lighter only, anything heavier and you're just going to be wasting your time as any gains will be minuscule at best. There was SOME potential with 124 grain bullets, but I didn't feel like developing that when 115 grain bullets were giving me great performance. Powder in the Blue Dot burn range are the best I have found for 9mm. Go too fast and you hit max pressure, too slow and your pressure curve is too long and you loose the occlusion at the breech as the case is extracted, giving a nice fireball at the wrong end of the gun. (Nothing too dangerous except having burning powder thrown in your face.) Load as close to max OAL as possible and have a light crimp. Helps to improve consistency in my experience, which runs counter to the thought that you need a heavier crimp for slower powders. You experience may differ here. Use what works. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

May 9, 2009, 02:35 PM	#6
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	You'll need kind-of light bullets (115 to 127 grains) because otherwise there won't be enough room in the case for powder. Use a mid-slow pistol/shotgun powder like AA#7, Power Pistol, or WSF. You are still not going to get as much velocity as with a long-slide pistol. Cast bullets might be better because the barrel friction is less. Last edited by zxcvbob; May 9, 2009 at 10:31 PM.

May 9, 2009, 09:58 AM	#2
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	I have the Marlin Camp 9mm, loaded some apparently hard-hitting loads with jhp Golden Sabre slugs over Power Pistol. don't have a chrono so can't provide any fps readings but they come outt'a there with a 'crack'. factory ammo doesn't do that.

May 9, 2009, 04:24 PM	#7
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	Viht. shows a HOT load for the 147 XTP, certainly the fastest I've ever seen published, 1207 fps with their 3N38. And that is out of a 4" barrel... I haven't shot it out of a barrel longer than 5" (1245 fps !) but it should do very well.http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_...oguide2009.pdf

May 9, 2009, 07:10 PM	#8
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	I respectfully disagree with the 3 above replys, give PP a try under 124 gr GS and figure on it. load just a few for a try, no need to load a box-full. you'll like it.

May 10, 2009, 09:04 AM	#10
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I respectfully disagree with "Load as close to max OAL as possible and have a light crimp" I personally don’t crimp my rounds, I use a taper crimp and I use a very firm crimp. The max OAL I have no problem with and it’s a good idea if you know you gun well. Since the Beretta has such a heavy bolt I want the bullet to enter the chamber easily and I don’t want any bullet set back which can be dangerous if you load to max levels. Personally I don’t load to max levels but since I had a 45 acp that had a bullet set back deep into the case years ago I always use a firm taper crimp on all of my auto that I reload for. When it happened it didn’t feel right when I shot it (second round that day), when I picked up the case I saw that it had pressure signs that scared the you know what out of me, and it was a mid pressure round. Checking the next round that was in the chamber I noticed it had set back. I grant you this was an error on my point but it stopped me from using standard crimp dies and went with taper crimp from that time on. The idea of the heavier bullet was not my idea but others that I have talked to that have MP5, using the heavier bullets at lower velocities but getting the same over all energy will extend barrel life. Also the longer bullet will stabilize better in the barrel and should????? prove more accurate,,, I hope. Once I get a load worked out with 231 I will try a slower powder but I just have a real like for 231 for the reliability of its burn and the way it burns so clean. For me reloading is does more than just allowing me to shoot more, it’s the experimentation that I really enjoy, and if all I wanted to do was pull the trigger,,, I would stay with the XTP bullet that works so well, but being an engineer I cant leave anything alone.

May 10, 2009, 09:54 AM	#11
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	try some Golden Sabre slugs when/if you can find them they shoot tightest groups in my Marlin but due to point/cavity shape it's difficult to set the oal to the nth degree, I allow 'em a tad long as a result just so's they function out of the mag OK.

May 10, 2009, 11:25 AM	#12
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	I should mention that the Blue Dot is not idea for a handgun, but was for carbine loads that would work in a handgun if needed. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.