"It's armored. It's heavy. It's intimidating. And it's free"

[armoredman]

They are not using these vehicles ... or to round up random people at will.

Missed the whole Boston Lockdown, didja? Google up some images of armed and armored vehicles on street corners, weapons pointed in windows AT people who are merely taking pictures, people forced from their homes to run down the street, hands in the air, for the crime of living in Boston.


After it was over, they cheered the police, even though the guy who found the bomber was an unarmed, (it IS Boston), civilian who lost his boat to police gunfire hours later.

[MTT TL]

Missed the whole Boston Lockdown, didja?

I missed the part where you said who the people were that were rounded up when searching for the bomber who had been in a wild running gun battle with the police resulting in multiple casualties?


Purely BTW: The internet raised thousands of dollars to buy Henneberry a new boat. He told them to donate it to the relief fund for the victims. A very generous man.

[Fishing_Cabin]

Perhaps instead of the worries, or what if thinking, boston, etc, let me toss out some ideas for thoughts.

1. If you object to the 1033 program, what other ideas do you have to change the program to what you feel is better? What about working with DoD to remove the Demil restrictions on certain items so they could be more readily sold for more money to the public instead of loaning them out or scrapping them?

2. Since some agencies use grants or other funding to purchase or fund equipment such as an armored vehicle, response team, or 4wd vehicles for inclement weather or rough terrain, how should that be changed if you feel it should? Should there be more oversight and public awareness of the program(s)? Perhaps a way to have a public database on various grants to see where this money is coming from and track how it is being spent in a more open manner?

3. How can we, as a group, have a more positive affect and perhaps make a difference in the future on this issue?

[MTT TL]

What about working with DoD to remove the Demil restrictions on certain items so they could be more readily sold for more money to the public instead of loaning them out or scrapping them?

You mean M-16's through CMP? The line of cars into Anniston would stretch from Birmingham on one side to Atlanta on the other. I am sure someone on this board would take offense.

But those are all excellent ideas.

[Fishing_Cabin]

actually MTT TL, just trying to put some ideas out there, and hope others may chime in. Instead of just discussing <MRAPS = bad/good> why not discuss what can logically and realistically could be done or changed? If we find something that is realistic perhaps we could work to get something changed or improved?

[JimDandy]

I missed the part where you said who the people were that were rounded up

I missed the part where the police didn't have armored vehicles, so the Mayor called the Governor to call out the National Guard with M-16's and MRAPs, and the guy lost his boat, his garage, and half his house to an RPG.

I'm looking at their armored vehicle now, and I don't even see a pintle mount. Maybe your eyes are better than mine.

I suspect you will get far more traction on police misconduct from the Dorner manhunt than the Boston Bombers. Although in that case you're primarily talking about White Phosphorous and not MRAPs.

[armoredman]

Hey, Jim, where did I say they had pintle mounted weapons?
Here is a few videos from that day, one sporting the very same picture you link to. BTW, those aren't NG armoreds, because I have never seen a black current service armored vehicle.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-suspect.html

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...-searches.html

The third photo down is interesting as is the video. Scrolling down I D see some military armored Hummers, and a bunch of police armoreds and militarized cops.

No that I have answered THAt one, let me state that IF the police departments would save these vehicles and such for real serious issues, then I wouldn't mind anyone having surplus military vehicles for police work, but I've seen SWAT used to serve an eviction notice. Save SWAT for the real serious times that come up, and leave the cops on the street to be peace officers, not occupying troops. Leave the tanks for warfare.

[johnelmore]

I was all for what they did in the Boston bombing situation. In the Boston bombing event there was an actual bomb which hurt and killed people. There was no telling if this was just the start of something bigger or if more people were involved. The response was very swift and appropriate given the situation. I was surprised they caught them so fast. I guess its impossible nowadays to pull off anything nowadays and thats probably why we are seeing such low crime rates.

In the last 2000 years, there have been many violent events in history. When such violence does occur there comes a time when we have to suspend the rights of others in the name of restoring order.

Now, mind you, the suspension of rights can be abused, its been abused quite often and so must be checked. I believe there has to be an actual threat and an actual event which has taken place to get to this level. For example, a massive hurricane hits the coast and causes others to loot and fight each other. In another example, a bomb goes off killing others and there is no telling if there is more after that. A foreign nation flies bombers over a city and launches an attack. I dont believe a suspicion of danger can be the justification for the suspension of rights, but an actual event which disturbs the usual order of the day. That said I do think parts of Chicago should be put under martial law until order is restored. Just my opinion...

[csmsss]

Not sure why the comparison between US military and militarized civilian police became relevant, since there is ZERO chance they would be adversaries. The police agencies acquiring these tools and equipment from the feebs aren't doing so in preparation for a civil war against the republic; they're doing so for other reasons.

Just consider this: Police conducting military style operations are very rare. The last time the police mounted a company sized full scale attack with air and armor support was 20 years ago in Waco and that turned out to be quite the goat rope. It took weeks of planning, the cooperation of dozens of agencies and still went badly. The media fallout went on for years.

Wasn't police conducted the Waco raid. Was the FBI, BATF, and other federal agencies. The feebs kept the local and state police on the periphery at Waco from the very beginning, which was one of the primary contributing factors to the ghastly chain of events, from start to finish.

[jimbob86]

In the last 2000 years, there have been many violent events in history. When such violence does occur there comes a time when we have to suspend the rights of others in the name of restoring order.

Trade your Liberty for some temporary Security if you will ..... I won't.

Peace Officers do not need Armored Vehichles. If they do, then there is no peace to be kept, and the Governor needs to call out the militia.... (that'd be the National Guard) to restore order......

It seems to me that many local police forces have become local politicians' private armies ......

[armoredman]

johnlmore, I'm sorry, but your post left me feeling very cold...rights cannot be suspended, or they are privileges, not rights. If the government, for whatever reason, can tell me my rights are subject to their whims, (is there anything more permanent than a "temporary" emergency? Ask the Egyptians), then they are not rights as declared in the Bill of Rights, but exactly what Bloomberg and Schumer think they are - bad ideas that can be erased by "progressive" government action.
I can see I am in a distinct minority here, but I will close my remarks on this thread with this comment on the militarization of law enforcement - yesterday we were subjected to the quarterly staff searches on the way in. Our Tactical Unit was doing the ritual gropings and dog-through-the-car tricks...and they were all wearing brand new desert digital camouflage military uniforms. I asked them who they were hiding from. They didn't understand. I explained that camo was for hiding from the enemy to avoid being shot/detected, so who, in this prison environment, are they hiding from on the tax payers dime? Laughs and "See ya later" comments. Our "enemies" wear orange, and will have home made/improvised stabbing/impact weapons at best. Your tax dollars at work.

[shortwave]

Peace Officers do not need Armored Vehichles. If they do, then there is no peace to be kept, and the Governor needs to call out the militia.... (that'd be the National Guard) to restore order

Why draw the line at armored vehicles?

Why not draw the line at all automatic weapons, tear gas, night vision capabilities, heavy body armor and lets not forget the dreaded, evil looking blacked out, military looking hardhat used by many tactical units cause the helmets look evil or the listening devices cause that's an invasion of privacy.

Too, since helicopters/planes are used in military ops. lets take them away as well. Especially the blacked out ones used often by Homeland Security.

Lets get real about this...

IMO, some of the posts on here really show how far out of touch some are with just how bad things are outside of their own backyard. There are parts of our country that the major gangs have all but taken over. These gangs are no longer a few stupid neighborhood hoodlums walking around with Saturday night specials that might go off when the trigger is pulled. They have evolved into well organized gangs involved in million $ criminal activities(white and blue collar) and have the latest in fire power and sophisticated communications to protect their interests.
Not only that, they have become experts at using our own laws as means of doing business just under the radar of LE.

Bottom line is, you can't fight fire with a spray bottle of water.

Some have offered suggestions of change.

I'll offer this one:
Don't handicap the officers out on the street. Give him at least equal firepower/tactical procedures then the BG's have. More if we can.

Here's another: Change the judicial problems that have plagued this country for years by not plea bargaining crimes down to a lessor charge that allows nothing but slapping the BG's on the wrist and turning them loose time and time again.

And another: Stop turning BG's loose for crimes(some that are felonies) that they should be locked up for simply cause there is no place to house them which happens everyday. And the criminals know the housing situation and know they aren't going to jail if caught committing these crimes. They may be dumb, but street smart.

Again, while some here may be fortunate enough to live in an area with a very low crime rate and don't see the need for their local LE to have armored vehicles or even a tactical unit in their town(and you may be justified in your opinions), please be aware that there are areas in the US that not only have and utilize armored vehicles but other donated military equipment as well that is needed for counter-drug / counter-terrorism operations as well as hostage situations.

Sorry for the rant.

and they were all wearing brand new desert digital camouflage military uniforms. I asked them who they were hiding from. They didn't understand. I explained that camo was for hiding from the enemy to avoid being shot/detected, so who, in this prison environment, are they hiding from on the tax payers dime? Laughs and "See ya later" comments. Our "enemies" wear orange, and will have home made/improvised stabbing/impact weapons at best. Your tax dollars at work.
__________________

armoredman

Is it possible that these new desert digital camouflage military uniforms were purchased at a bigger discount then what traditional black uniforms could be purchased for? Simply cause the company they were purchased from has been making millions of these same uniforms for the military and was able to sell them to your outfit at a more discounted price. If this is the case then I like my tax $'s being spent that way.

[johnelmore]

I know it feels rather cold, but let me ask what would you do if you were the Governor of a state during an obvious emergency where there is a loss of order? There will be times when the government has to do these things to restore order.

The police are not a military force and in my opinion they are poorly armed and poorly trained when compared to a regular military force. A few armored vehicles and rifles doesnt change that. In the 70s, the police were so poorly armed it was scary.

The police do not normally go up against well trained and motivated forces. When they do they usually lose. These vehicles even up the score a little bit.

[MTT TL]

They didn't understand.

Or maybe they thought you were kidding since they were wearing UNIFORMS. Might want to google that word and give it some thought. Sorry if you did not like the uniforms but it does not mean they are trying to hide.

[JimDandy]

Originally Posted by armoredman

No that I have answered THAt one,

Actually, no you haven't answered that one. That interesting third picture you point to also doesn't have anything mounted to the vehicle. Those armored vehicles are still just armor.

Take the guy out of the cupola who can't follow the four basic rules around someone with a camera, and it's still just a truck.

The boy in the bubble wasn't curing polio, and a cop in an armored vehicle isn't using a remote operated turret mounted chain gun.

Again you are complaining about something entirely passively defensive in nature. The fully automatic M4's, M-16's, and White Phosphorous grenades are certainly a different matter, but they aren't going to shoot anyone with an unarmed truck.

[armoredman]

Give him at least equal firepower/tactical procedures then the BG's have. More if we can.

Not until and unless the civilians in that same jurisdiction have equal access to the exact same weapons. To shortstop the obvious parry, I mean the RIGHT to purchase, not given funds to purchase.

That interesting third picture you point to also doesn't have anything mounted to the vehicle. Those armored vehicles are still just armor.

Forgive me, but I already stated that there were no vehicle mounted weapons on the police vehicles - how did you get off on that tangent? I did see turrets on Hummers on what could be NG vehicles, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about cops acting like an army of occupation rather than law enforcement. If this is truly something you love, then more power to you - my local LEOs tend not to act like this. We may be a little more self sufficient out here, I guess.

Again you are complaining about something entirely passively defensive in nature. The fully automatic M4's, M-16's...

You can see the selector switch on the weapons in the videos? Good eyes - I can't see that well. Yes, some LE organizations have fully automatic weapons, for what reason, I have no idea. The most infamous is actually Sheriff Joe's M2HB he was showing off...tell me how that fits into any law enforcement agencies mission statement. Seriously, come up with a plausible reason for a department to have a heavy machine gun?

BTW, shortwave, no, to the best of my knowledge, no, they weren't. Long and short, the uniforms were purchased so they could look cool, no practical benefit when they could easily wear regular duty uniform for these types of operations, and save the intimidation factor outfits for use against rioting inmates.

But, I digress, and getting drawn into petty bickering like this merely makes the antis laugh.

[JimDandy]

No, I can't see the selector switches in those photographs. However, as you have stipulated SOME departments, have SOME units with fully automatic rifles, which I was referring to generically.

My point about the vehicle mounted weapons is simple. It's no different than a "bullet proof vest". It's passive, it's defensive only. Do you complain your police forces have better than average access to Kevlar? Or are you falling into the same trap as the anti-gunners who fume against the AR-15 because it LOOKS like a scary military thing?

Now while I come up with a plausible reason for a department to have a heavy machine gun could you come up with a plausible reason to object to a a completely unarmed police vehicle with armor plating.

Finally I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth insinuating things as fact, i.e. loving police acting as an occupying army, vs asking i.e. Are You falling into the same trap.... And for the record, my local LEO's are in trouble for getting caught on Youtube threatening to beat the (racial) (urine) out of the guy they're brutalizing, so yeah they're not popular out here. I still don't blame a truck for their behavior, like I don't blame the gun for some school shooter's behavior.

[OuTcAsT]

JimDandy Wrote;

It's no different than a "bullet proof vest". It's passive, it's defensive only.

a completely unarmed police vehicle with armor plating.

Jim, the vehicle is only "passive" and "unarmed" if it's sitting in the Police parking lot, otherwise it's bristling with folks bearing (likely) automatic weapons, that is far from passive or unarmed.

armoredman Wrote;

Not until and unless the civilians in that same jurisdiction have equal access to the exact same weapons.

armoredman has touched on the correct sentiment IMO, a "civilian" police force should be outfitted with the same weapons that civilians are able to equip themselves with, no more, no less.

[shortwave]

armoredman has touched on the correct sentiment IMO, a "civilian" police force should be outfitted with the same weapons that civilians are able to equip themselves with, no more, no less.

Yea...a great idea. Only allow your local LE to be equipped with what the non-LE populace is allowed to have. After all, the non LE populace fights crime everyday and goes out looking for BG's that just may well be armed with any kind of weapon accessible just like the LE populace does.

Unbelievable!

Some of you really need to research or see first hand some of the situations LE gets into before making such statements.

[johnelmore]

I believe the police in the United States should be armed like European police. First, an exterior police vest which goes beyond the highest standards already in place, offers maximum coverage and stab resistant. Second, an automatic personal defense weapon which is larger then a pistol but smaller then the rifle...MP5k for example. Third, a rifle at the ready in the patrol car. Fourth, a patrol car fortified with bullet resistant interior panels at least iiia rating. Fifth, monthly training conducted by military grade instructors on the use of rifles and tactics.

Ride along with the local police one day. The usual officer carries around just a pistol. Some have a shotgun or rifle in their car but nothing more then a pistol during most times. The armor is usually concealable and most of the time less than IIIA and doesnt offer the protection/comfort levels of an exterior vest. The vehicle made of sheet metal which will do nothing to protect the officer. Back during the 70s most officers had just a revolver. So if there is that worst case scenario of several bad guys with rifles what are the officers to do?

[MTT TL]

Yea...a great idea. Only allow your local LE to be equipped with what the non-LE populace is allowed to have. After all, the non LE populace fights crime everyday and goes out looking for BG's that just may well be armed with any kind of weapon accessible just like the LE populace does.

You read that all backwards. Understandable as it was written that way.

[sigcurious]

I believe the police in the United States should be armed like European police. First, an exterior police vest which goes beyond the highest standards already in place, offers maximum coverage and stab resistant. Second, an automatic personal defense weapon which is larger then a pistol but smaller then the rifle...MP5k for example. Third, a rifle at the ready in the patrol car. Fourth, a patrol car fortified with bullet resistant interior panels at least iiia rating. Fifth, monthly training conducted by military grade instructors on the use of rifles and tactics.

Ummm what Europe have you been to? Since clearly Europe as a whole isn't geared up and trained like that, can you even name a single country where the average patrol unit is armed and trained like that?

[shortwave]

So if there is that worst case scenario of several bad guys with rifles what are the officers to do?

Exactly!

To say that LE should not be armed with anything more then what the general public has access to is absolutely absurd for obvious reasons. The general public's job is not to go out on a daily basis and deal with BG's, felons of all kinds, and many times, the dregs of society that actually have the mindset that killing a cop puts some kind of notch in their belt within the minds of the fellow scum they hang with. A fear, if you will, which goes a long way in the gang business on the street as well as in the pen.

And yes, it's easy for us to sit here in the safety of our house or at work in our office while the cop is out on the street dealing with this scum and armchair quarterback what the cop needs to do his/her job with.

[Al Norris]

98 posts and we've gone from discussing the use/misuse of military armored vehicles by local police to what the local police should be equipped with?

Nah. Strayed too far.

Closed.