Savage failing to make groups

[mrbro]

What rings and bases are both rifles using?

[tim s]

How are you cleaning your bores?

[NaCl Assassin]

wow lots of suggestions thanks. I'll try to cover as much as I can in one response. I'm shooting from a bipod and "sandsock", depending on the location we're at. Nothing hard is touching the barrel, I just took the entire receiver out of the stock and back in again, nothing out of the ordinary there except the bore bolts were pretty dang tight. I'm sure me as the shooter is part of the issue since I'm not some expert marksman, but when I can hit clay pigeons (about 4-5" across) with a .223 with open sights at 100-150 yards, I'm pretty sure I should be able to make a marginal group, not the random spread i've been getting with the 7mm. I'm not really flinching, I've had people watch to make sure, and they say that there's no flinch before the shot. I hardly feel the recoil because of the recoil pad, so I don't think I'm flinching before. Yes I should probably get to a range and see if i can borrow or use a bench or sled, but that would involve an 8 hour trip to the Tucson range where my buddy lives, and that's not going to happen right now. When we clean our bores, we run a few dry through first, then soak it with a few wet, then do a few runs with a copper brush, then a few dry, then alternate wet with a few dry until the squares come out pretty much clean.

[NaCl Assassin]

sorry forgot the rings and bases. The bases are the stock savage bases that come with the rifle. I'm planning on upgrading the bases to a picatinny style with weaver six hole rings soon (next paycheck). But though the rings i have aren't space shuttle steel that would hold against a rocket's recoil, they haven't moved or slid at all. I suppose it could be the rings, but the fact that the rifle produced the same results with the simple bushnell scope and rings makes me wonder if that's what it is.

[Doyle]

Stop cleaning your barrel. Let it get a dozen shots down it, THEN shoot for a group. Most rifles shoot much better on a slightly fouled barrel.

[Ike666]

With respect to your rings, it is not just about tightness. If the rings don't evenly contact the scope tube, the scope alignment will be shifting, just ever so slightly, every time you fire. That means the aim point in the scope will be in a different place every time you aim. This might be virtually unnoticeable at closer ranges and tend to become more pronounced at greater distances.

Another possibility is the if the bases are not aligned with one another AND with the bore axis, you get the same problem. Even though the scope seems to be bore sighted it is just ever so slightly off-axis. Again the inaccuracy will tend to increase with range.

If the bases are unevenly torqued, this could do it too.

Finally, check the torque on your action screws (don't use the TLAR method - "that looks about right"; instead use a real torque driver). Tighten the front screw last to shift the load against the rear of the receiver.

Earlier you mentioned that the dollar bill test failed to confirm the barrel was fully free floating. If one of the rises in the stock that is near contact is off of the vertical axis the barrel harmonics are going to induce some irregular lateral movements in the path of bullet.

I agree that with your reported skills you should be able to print a group, and a much tighter group, at the ranges you are shooting.

Someone above mentioned that given your description of the problem, the most likely culprit is the mounting of the optics. I'm inclined to agree. Good article in last months American Rifleman on mounting scopes. I'd start there.

[Jimro]

Also try Winchester white box 175 grain bullets for your rifle.

The heavier pill will have different harmonics. A buddy of mine has a 7mm Rem Mag that will shoot under an inch with pretty much any brand of ammo (plus my handloads) as long as the bullet is 175 grains. He tried some 140 grain bullets and liked them because "It feels like the rifle is more powerful" (his exact words) but the 140's grouped about 6 inches at 100.

Jimro

[olddav]

I'm no expert frankly I barely know anything at all, but I have a 110 in 30.06. After trying several different brands of ammo I found that Federal Power Shok 150 grain Soft Point produced the best groups for my rifle, that is after I replaced the trigger.

[Kayser]

Do not underestimate the effect of bad ammo. I have a Remington 700 vs in .308 that, among other things

- Hates any sort of factory ammo over 150 gr.
- Can maintain 3 inch groups with the standard Core Lokt stuff, and no better with more expensive stuff.
- Will shoot sub 1" groups all day long with my own middle-of-the-road reloads (bulk Hornady 150 gr, IMR 4895).

I would never have guessed that reloads would make that much of a difference since I never experienced that with pistol rounds. But the rifle turns from ho-hum into an absolute tack driver with the reloads. It's uncanny.

Also, I find that I get superior accuracy using a folding bipod off a wooden bench than off of any other kind of rest (towels, sandbags, etc). I think the reason for this is that it allows me to stabilize the rifle with just a tiny amount of forward shoulder pressure, which allows me to have a much looser grip and smoother trigger pull with my hand. If you feel almost any tension in your trigger hand, you're probably doing something wrong.

[bigautomatic]

Could be one of many things, and many of them have been suggested. But, I belieive both of Doyle's posts are the best place to start. I have a 111 in 30-06 and the barrel heats up very quickly. As in, three quick shots and the barrel is VERY warm to the touch. You must have patience to let these "pencil" barrels cool between shots. The 7mm will heat up much quicker than your .223. Also, after I do a thorough bore cleaning, it can take as many as ten rounds for the rifle to settle in. Again, this is a 111 in 30-06 that is nearly 20 years old, and has reacted the same to barrel heat and cleaning regimen since day one.

[M.O.A.]

try heavier bullets savage rifles like the heavier bullets try 168 or heavier

[NaCl Assassin]

I'll have to try these suggestions. Too bad reloading is so expensive to start out with. I'll have to go visit my reloading buddy and try out some loads. I need a torque wrench for my car anyway, so that would definitely cross over to the gun. I need to pick up a picatinny rail and some weaver rings anyway so maybe that'll help.

[Doyle]

I need a torque wrench for my car anyway, so that would definitely cross over to the gun.

Nope. Torque wrench for your car would measure in foot pounds. A torque wrench for gunsmithing measures in inch pounds (i.e. much less torque applied to a screw).

[Ike666]

Yeah, what Doyle said... try something like this:

torque driver

[L_Killkenny]

Here's what you need to do....

Go to a good range. I'm not talkin the local spray and pray joint but a good rifle range. Iszak Waltons or the like can be pretty down to earth. Now when you go, dress the part. Put your hat on the right way, wear pants that fit, have no holes and a belt. Leave the beer t-shirts at home and if your underwear shows give it up. When you get there do a lot of looking around, talk to people and ask advice. Tell them you are new and have them check your scope and gun. Have them watch you shoot or have them shoot your gun. Before long you will have all the answers you need. Or you could just go back to playing COD.

LK

[precision_shooter]

Here's what you need to do....

Go to a good range. I'm not talkin the local spray and pray joint but a good rifle range. Iszak Waltons or the like can be pretty down to earth. Now when you go, dress the part. Put your hat on the right way, wear pants that fit, have no holes and a belt. Leave the beer t-shirts at home and if your underwear shows give it up. When you get there do a lot of looking around, talk to people and ask advice. Tell them you are new and have them check your scope and gun. Have them watch you shoot or have them shoot your gun. Before long you will have all the answers you need. Or you could just go back to playing COD.

Nothing like stereotyping a guy with legitimate questions regarding firearms...

SHEESH!!! The mods should delete your post as it adds no value to the topic at hand and only makes you look like a typical profiler always putting others down that don't dress or act the same as you.

I could care less how someone dresses when they are at the range so long as they know how to safely operate their firearm.

[NaCl Assassin]

LK,
You're right. It's not my rifle or me, it's what I wear. All the holey jeans and Keystone t-shirts. That's definitely it. I'm not following what you're saying about CoD..that taught me everything I know. It's just point and pull the trigger right? I thought it was realistic, that's what war is really like right? I get unlimited respawns in real life too? And yes, I should definitely drive all the way over to California for the nearest IWLA Chapter, cause that's going to be cost effective. Thank you for your overwhelmingly good advice. You're obviously someone who inspires confidence and awe everywhere you go. Thank you for helping me out with a problem in which I have no experience, I never thought that if I have my pants around my knees it's going to throw off my shooting capabilities. You have been so helpful, thank you for showing me exactly how not to help someone new in the future. I'm glad you graciously supplied me with a model of who not emulate. You're a public servant LK, thanks for all you do in helping people understand their firearms more.

[NaCl Assassin]

Ike and Doyle, thanks for the save, haha I definitely would not have checked the lbs per inches and would've been disappointed when I got home. A buddy has one I'll borrow. I don't really have the $50 one now. Gotta save money for the actual shooting trip ha. thanks for your help guys.

[Clifford L. Hughes]

NaCl Assassin:

Your problem puzzels me because Savage and Leupold produce accurate products. In my opinion Leupold makes the best scopes in the wrold. Remington and Winchester produce accurate ammunition. Combining the rifles, ammunition, and scopes in any order wouldn't produce two feet groups at a hundred yards. Check and make sure that you're not flinching then talk to Savage and Leupold. Neither company wants defective products in their customer's hands.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

[L_Killkenny]

Like it or not, my advice was 100% spot on. Doing what I said is your best bet for finding the answers you seek. All the talk of scope bases, torque wrenches, changing ammo, cleaning, etc is absolutely pointless and will not solve the issues you are having. Finding ONE bolt action, even a military leftover with a shot out rusted barrel, that will only shoot 2 foot groups at 200 yards is next to impossible let alone TWO BRAND NEW SAVAGE rifles wearing 2 different scopes. Like I said in my first post, it's not the guns. So it really only leaves about 3 possibilities:

1) You have 2 guys that don't know how to mount a scope.
2) They are using the wrong ammo. Not cheap ammo or the wrong weight bullet but the wrong ammo. Like using .25-06 ammo in the .30-06.
3) They can't shoot to save their lives.

Or any combination of those. Sorry if it's hard to swallow but that's the way it is and until we get to the core problem you will not find a solution. #2 is the least likely and from the OP's post so far I'd bet the house that #1 and 3 are very likely. Don't worry, I've never met a shooter yet that at the start didn't know how to shoot or mount a scope. Everyone starts somewhere. I've also seen guys with years of experience shove the wrong ammo in a gun by accident.

But the fact remains that what you are talking about is next to impossible unless at least one of the 3 things I listed above is true and as stated, all the other stuff is BS in this case. Like I said, go to a GOOD range, dress the part and learn. You'll be better off in the long run.

LK

Added: my stereotyping (actually it's not stereotyping but I'll use your term for now) was spot on too. And...... I didn't say he wore the attire mentioned I told him not to wear the attire mentioned. If you dress in the attire I mentioned and take offence.......too bad.

[hooligan1]

I can't give the young man answers unless he's properly dressed......:Or I could just tell him to use a dremmel instead of just plain old sandpaper to float that barrel, because it's faster!!! Now as far as ammo goes, I have shot alot of Remington Corelokts and they're just fine form commercial ammo, however I choose to use Hornady's Custom Ammo in 7mm, (also some handloads) and they will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100yds through my Weatherby. I own a Savage 110 .270 win that love to shoot tight groups. But I had to float the plastic away from the barrel, also I strenghtened the action-screw holes with aluminium tubing just a micro larger than the screws.. It makes a big difference!! Your shooting prowess may also be the culprit. I have spent alot of time shooting, but I spend almost more time practicing 4 simple steps..
1. steady position
2. proper sight alignment
3. breath control
4. trigger squeeze

Working on those fundamentals are most important to me.. period... I might also add that my savage loves the Hornady 130 gr sst's. The 7mm rem mag likes those 139 gr BTSP's. Godd luck and happy shooting dude!! and whoa Kenney Chill man!!!

[HKFan9]

L_killkenny... you really need to get a grip on reality bud. People suggesting mounting problems are trying to help the situation... your not helping anyone including yourself.

I work for a gun shop with 3 gun smiths on hand every day. I can't even begin to tell you how many guys "who dress the part" come in with their $800 rifle, and $800 scope mounted to it... but can't even get it on paper. A lot more goes into mounting a scope than screwing things together. Most people are too cheap to buy ring alignment tools, and a proper torque wrench, let alone hand lap their own rings.

The funniest part about your post is your emphasis on dressing the part. You are stereotyping... and between all of us that work together there's 3 competition shooters.... one former Green Beret, and one former Force Recon Marine... and we often make fun of the guys walking around in Blackhawk and 5.11 gear....pretending to be something they are not. I think the proper term is Mall Ninja...?

Funniest part is last time we all got a day off to go shooting together... the ex Green Beret wore a Jack Daniels Tshirt.. and seeing as I just recently graduated college I had one of my frat lettered T-shirts on... and what do you know... we out shot all the guys wearing their 5.11 pants and jackets and Wiley X sun/shooting glasses.

I mean really... however will ISPC shooters take me seriously if I don't wear "Tactical" clothing.... anyone feel like going shopping?

Is there a cat walk at these ranges you visit? Do you guy's put on a show at New York Fashion Week? Are you guys on before or after Dolce & Gabbana? Any new items we just have to have in your new Fall line... or are you already thinking ahead for your spring collection?:rolleyes

Now to ignore the ignorance and address the actual problem.

Like others have stated, check over the spec's on your gun, check the rings... or just even buy new rings... get the shop to mount them. When customers buy a gun or scope from us we mount it for free... and if not we charge like $15 to do it the right way.

After that check yourself... not that your a bad shooter, but some things might come into play your not thinking about. Generally I don't try to shoot for groups with a bipod. Specially on the "cheaper" savage stocks.. they tend to flex up a bit in the front and you can be putting pressure on the barrel. Also it sounds like you already have a spot in the stock touching the barrel... like others have said.. 5 minutes and some sand paper can fix that.. just take your time and don't go overboard.

My guess would be that its a mount and ring issue.

[5whiskey]

Go to a good range. I'm not talkin the local spray and pray joint but a good rifle range. Iszak Waltons or the like can be pretty down to earth. Now when you go, dress the part. Put your hat on the right way, wear pants that fit, have no holes and a belt. Leave the beer t-shirts at home and if your underwear shows give it up. When you get there do a lot of looking around, talk to people and ask advice. Tell them you are new and have them check your scope and gun. Have them watch you shoot or have them shoot your gun. Before long you will have all the answers you need. Or you could just go back to playing COD.

Very Poor Form L_Killkenny. You can politely say that the problem almost has to be in the hands of the operator without throwing out coy insults. Dressing in 5.11s doesn't make you shoot better. When I go to mandatory range day I can wear shorts and a t-shirt and out shoot everyone there in "tactical" gear, save one or two who I would regard as equals in terms of ability.

Assassin... I would recommend that you drive to the closest range. It doesn't have to be some kind of super shooter club joint or anything, just any time of range that will allow you to shoot a rifle. I would ask advice from someone in person there.

KillKenny did get one thing right...

All the talk of scope bases, torque wrenches, changing ammo, cleaning, etc is absolutely pointless and will not solve the issues you are having. Finding ONE bolt action, even a military leftover with a shot out rusted barrel, that will only shoot 2 foot groups at 200 yards is next to impossible let alone TWO BRAND NEW SAVAGE rifles wearing 2 different scopes.

I agree with this. Lapping scope rings and aligning them within .0001 of an inch is not a mandate for mounting a scope. Unless you absolutely butcher the job, 2 foot groups at 200 yards should not be your experience. The sloppiest AK I've ever seen, with iron sights, is capable of better. I don't think 2 new rifles with new optics both have an issue causing accuracy this poor. Nor is it a problem of slightly less than precise alignment.

Assassin, I'm not going to throw any insults. Ignorance can be fixed. If you don't know any better, then that's not a problem that can't be solved. I just hope you enjoy shooting, stick with it, learn alot, and go out and represent the firearm community well. There are dozens of potential causes to your problems, but I'm going to lean toward how the scope was mounted right now. Ammo, barrel bedding, tourqing the action bolts, cleaning the copper fouling, cleaning too much, waiting for the barrel to cool, etc... all of that stuff is to go from 2 or 3 inch groups to 1/2 inch groups. If you're groups are 8 or 12 inches at one hundred to begin with, then you have greater problems than most of those listed. I would suggest seeking the advice of a live person, that knows what he's talking about, standing before you. You have a couple of options. Get a gunsmith recommendation from the board. Or... go to a range and ask the guys that can shoot 1" groups at over 100 yards to help. Make sure you see them shoot and spend a little bit of time with the guy before you ask for advice. If your gut tells you to not trust them fully, then don't.

A public range is a wonderful place to learn stuff. Just don't ask any joe-blow there, watch the guys that look like they know what they're doing and then look at the paper they shoot at a few times before asking them for advice. This is probably the best advice you get from this whole forum.

[warbirdlover]

I would go to a good range, find out who the most knowledgeable shooter and best shooter was and ask him if he'd shoot your rifle and then if still poor groups check a few things. It would be a smart way to finding the problem, whether it is the rifles or the nuts on the handles... (JK!!)

[NaCl Assassin]

5Whiskey, Hooligan, HKfan, Clifford,
Thanks for the advice. I would definitely love to go to a range. Next time I take a trip to Phoenix or Tucson, I'll definitely bring my rifle and go to a range. Haha the problem is that in Flagstaff, there are no ranges. Hahaha, i'm not even talking a "spray and paint" as killkenny put it. Ha our ranges are the old fashioned, "hey this looks like a good spot, pull over here". But yes, I agree, I may be doing something wrong that my buddies havent noticed that a trained eye would, and next time i find one, I will definitely solicit his (or her) opinion. For now I will try some of the cheaper options posted here first, slight sanding in areas, checking the torque, better mounts and rings (which were already on their way). If that doesn't work, I feel confident saying its me, which is surprising regarding my other work with the Charles Daly scoped .223 I own. So if that is the case, a 4 hour drive to the ranges down south will be in order. Ha thanks for the polite way of putting it guys, makes me want to believe it may be a possibility. Clifford, I was thinking of calling savage anyway, just checking up to see if they think its a rifle issue. Hooligan, I definitely try to work on those everytime. I don't like being just a wham and bammer, I try to get the basics down every shot. 5Whiskey, Thanks, I do love shooting and won't stop. Its what I look forward to every few weeks. All day shooting is better than a day of doing anything else. And I do try to expand the firearms "knowledgeable" community by bringing friends and showing them the basics of guns (i'm no expert, but growing up in rural Idaho gives one small idea about which end you look down ). So yes, I wont give it up, I love it.
Thanks for all the help guys (and gals i suppose, not sure who's who.)