Legality of a "rapist trap". - Page 2

Socrates · September 20, 2006, 03:30 PM

Capt, sometimes police tempt a man's soul.
"Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers. A female cop is placed on the street, dressed like a hooker. She's the bait for a "John", but the trick is that she cannot solicit anyone. As long as the John makes the approach and does the soliciting, it isn't entrapment."

When I was working in the SFDA's office, we had one female officer that worked vice. She made Playboy bunnies look like boys.

I used to suffer everytime she came in to testify, after working all night, in her skin tight, black, outfits.

She was one in a million, and, if you never contemplated prostitution, she would make you. I think that qualifies
as entrapment.

This person would normally NEVER consider prostitution, but, this woman would make you consider it. No prior inclination, never done it before, but looking at her, I would certainly think about it...

"I would prefer the method of offering to buy the guy a drink, and then explaining in detail that should your friends wife suffer a hang nail in her home, you would be more than willing to dispose of his body in a redimix cement truck. Explain then that you are going to find any and every one he every cared about and do to them what he did to her. I have used this method twice, once with a guy who was stalking my wife and another who was abusing my cousin, both times when faced with plain stark terms of the end of their life, they have stopped.

This may not be the PC answer, but it does work. Don't threaten, don't say in ear shot of anyone, but let him know that if he continues to bother her, his alloted time is up."

I like the above approach, but, the guy might be wired,
and, it's assault, in most jurisdictions. The threat of force,
when you have the ability to do it, at close proximity, when the person has a good reason to believe you will do it, is usually assault. If it isn't, it's probably not going to achieve your end goal.

The problem with sex offenders is they have a very high rate of repeating, something like 96%, and, it's almost beyond being a rational act with them. Logic, and threat of force is not likely to work, unless, as I said, it's either assault, or, it's followed by a bit of battery.

Also, setting the trap might be legal, or viewed as such for LEO, and, the rules for you might be considerably different.
It all depends on state law. If the Louisiana government hasn't managed to get a hold of your guns, with their illegal confiscation, I believe that state, and Texas, at times, holds you can shoot an intruder, period, on your property. Louisiana was based on French law, and, it put property over people, which, in retrospect, may have a number of valid points.

I think Kalifornia requires you to back up, give the guy the keys to your safe, allow him to take all objects, rape your wife, and, only then if he is within arms reach, or starts shooting at you with one of the guns he took out of your safe, are you allowed to shoot the intruder...:barf:

S

Jason607 · September 20, 2006, 08:20 PM

Thanks for the replies. I guess a good prosicuter could say that because you sleep with a gun in your dresser, that could be a trap as well. It was not our first option, but the police weren't very helpfull, probally because they couldn't. The scary part was that this guy was good, very good, too good, must have had practice. We had several reports, I belive it was nine reports in all.

If it did happen, the trap part would have not come out. Let the lawyer do the talking. See, we first stopped at our buddy's house, and decided to walk to our other buddy's house because it was just basically, accross the back yard and down a little. We just happened to be hanging out when this perv came running in the door.

I wanted to just bust him in the act, but my other buddy wanted a peice of him for stalking his wife. A convicted sex offender lets himself in uninvited when it appeared a girl was left alone. I know the police are limited, but I think thier egos were getting to them. They started saying she was imagining things, because except that one time, there wasn't a trace of this guy.

In all, they moved. That was a relief. Another woman was raped about a mile away. We taught her to shoot, but she just gets too afraid when trying to pull the trigger. If she's scared to use it, she's better off without it.

I don't belive this can be compared to the rigged shotgun, or even the store owner setting a trap. What was the difference? I'll tell you, those traps were against people steeling in what they thought was an inhabited place, in our trap, the building was occupied, but we just didn't quite reviel by who and how many. The laws around here are pretty conservative.

**JohnKSa** · September 20, 2006, 09:57 PM

This is just my opinion.

If you decide to plan the death of a specific person, you'd better not tell anyone about it--EVER. I don't care if the external circumstances make it look perfectly justifiable, sitting down and planning a course of action that will end up with a specific person dead is over the edge to my way of thinking.

I don't see it as being the same as saying: "I have a plan to defend my family should someone break in. That's not thinking of a specific person, it's focusing on stopping a crime or general category of crime.

When you stop dealing with how to defend yourself against crime or criminals and go to planning how to end the life of a specific criminal that gets very touchy, IMO.

garryc · September 20, 2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

If it did happen, the trap part would have not come out. Let the lawyer do the talking. See, we first stopped at our buddy's house, and decided to walk to our other buddy's house because it was just basically, accross the back yard and down a little. We just happened to be hanging out when this perv came running in the door

Lets see, I count 4 participants. Now if you think 4 participants are going to hide the truth and keep on the same story line in the face of professional interogation you got another thing coming.

springmom · September 20, 2006, 10:15 PM

Garryc has that right. It would not take long for inconsistencies to start surfacing, and then you all would be in deep trouble. Even if the original act wasn't a chargeable offense, lying to the police in the course of an investigation is a baaaaaaaaad thing to do.

You never did tell us what jurisdiction you are in. But regardless, a lawyer is the person to ask about something like this. And for heaven's sake, don't put together a plan like this ever again unless you DO get legal advice. Better yet, never put together a plan like this again period.

IANAL, but I think that last is just common sense.

Springmom

Socrates · September 20, 2006, 10:25 PM

Some states do have such laws as it's against the law to conspire to commit murder. Often used against the mob. Isn't that what you just did, and then put on the internet?

A good DA would have you all in jail, getting one to turn on the other, in minutes, if this is the level of intelligence you show, by discussing it on the net...

S

FirstFreedom · September 20, 2006, 10:36 PM

Bartonkj, springmom, capn charlie, and JohnKSa posts are most helpful.

Two questions: Is it illegal, and would you actually be convicted. Two separate questions. Is it illegal? Yes, what you described is premeditated, cold-blooded murder, for which you could be put to death in some states, had you been 'successful', and the TRUE FACTS ever came out, and were provable in court. UNLESS he had a gun pointed at you immediately upon entering, AND you *actually* feared for life or limb, AND you live in a make my day law state.

Would you actually be convicted? That depends on many many factors, most notably of which are (a) whether your state has a so-called "Make My Day" law, and (b) to a lesser extent, whether your state has a Castle Doctrine law (15 do now). But it's also going to depend on who did the shooting, you or your friend, since the make my day law, if present, wouldn't apply to YOU. Also depends on whether you're WILLING to lie when you are questioned, as to what actually happened. Also on how GOOD of a liar you are. Also, on the attitude of the investigator and the (possibly intentional) lack of detail on the report. Also on the general political and personal attitudes and beliefs of the District Attorney for your county (which in turn depends on the general pro- or anti-defense and pro- or anti-gun attitude of the folks in the state and county you live in. Also on whether the guy was in fact armed, whether you claim you saw a weapon or what you thought was a weapon. How big and mean and scary he was. Whether the deceased actually had a criminal record, and of what and to what extent. Also, whether you told anyone of your intent who is NOT a good liar, or not willing to lie, and whether such a person is every questioned or comes forward, and whether upon investigation, the cop finds this thread by you on this site from your history on your computer. And on and on and on and on....

Bottom line, in a make-my-day-law-state, chances are excellent that y'all would get away with the murder, for better or worse, IF it was your friend pulling the trigger; not you. That law only applies if the shooter/defender is in HIS OWN house/homestead. Waiting til they get through the frame is outstanding advice, because being inSIDE the home is the key to having the make-my-day-law burden-of-proof shift in your favor. Don't shoot in the back either.

P.S. The fact that the door is locked or unlocked makes very little difference, except to the extent that the intentional unlocking can be used to prove your state of mind as to malice aforethought for that element of murder. A "breaking" (as in "breaking and entering") can occur by the perpetrator just by opening the door using the knob, which can in turn kick in the make my day law. Forcing a door open by breaking a locking mechanism is NOT required to meet the element of breaking in a B&E.
Socrates, lol, that description of that lady reminds me of the "black man's kryptonite" or "white she devil" in "Undercover Brother" - Denise Richards in a white skin-tight leather suit.

Socrates · September 20, 2006, 11:25 PM

FF:
Excellent post.

In Louisiana, you can shoot a police officer on your property, and, since they KNOW they are not supposed to be there, without your permission, it's a justifiable shooting, or was last time I checked. Katrina may have changed that, a bit. In fact, shooting ANYONE on your property was legal.

That's the extreme.

By the way, at one time, I was dating Miss March, 1988, or so, Diane Hsu Lee. She was drop dead gorgeous in person,
and while a tomboy, well, she wasn't put together like a boy. It was my stupid suggestion that she give up modern dance, and go be a Playboy bunny. Well, she did...

And, she married the photographer, who then dumped her.

This woman was also oriental, had long black hair, a perfect, extremely well endowed, atheletic police officer body, in skin tight stuff she wore in SF. I found her picture. It was in the dictionary, right next to entrapment

She was to die for, or, for most, go to jail for...

I see a woman in the same category about once every 5 years...

Much better to discuss then conspiring to commit murder, or really, considering it, and posting it on the internet...

S

Fn-P9 · September 20, 2006, 11:38 PM

This post seems kinda funny. Not so much haha but seems that this guys girls was "probably" in "possible" grave bodily harm. Guy rattling the door knob unanounced. IMHO it does seem kinda screwy to be hiding the bushing at the normal time of his arrival but again what else to do. My point is here:All of us seem concerned for the posters freedom but what about this scumbag. Personally Id feel way better he getting knocked off. Seeing that then he wont bother me or anyone else. I'd take a shovel and whack his man hood off. lol

Jason607 · September 21, 2006, 12:19 AM

OK, I see where everyone thinks I was planning an ambush, I never said that. That wasn't the plan, but we realized dealing with a crazy person, that could happen. We were ready if he came charging in the door to use deadly force. We stayed out of sight and one near each door. The idea was to protect her and catch him in the act. If he comes through the door and charges one of us, then what? If he opened a door, or tried the door, he might get held gunpoint, probally beaten by the girls husband, but if he opens the door, sees one of us and procedes to charge, that would be threatening our lives. If he came in and proceded to try to rape my buddy's wife, what were we suposed to do, allow it because we have no right since we didn't give fair warning that she wasn't alone?

We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not.

Once again, I never said the idea was to kill him, but to catch him in the act. I'm know that you can't expect normal reactions out of crazy people. No doubt he would have some weapon on him, and if he saw he just got caught, knowing what happens to second offence (maby it was third or more, we don't know) that he's going away, he might decide to attack us.

So I supose if say someone was stalking your child/wife on the way to work, and the police weren't helping, if you were to follow your wife to work to watch her back, and say that person ran her off the road and proceded to attack her, you can't do anything because it would be premeditated?

Axion · September 21, 2006, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers

Are you sure? I just ask because cops can legally do things citizens can't and I have a strong feeling that if it came out that you (a normal citizen) baited someone ino your house and then had to kill them because they became a threat things wouldnt go well in court.

marlboroman84 · September 21, 2006, 06:41 AM

What no one here, except for I think one person, has said is it really depends on the cops and the DA. Say you and your buddy had been at the house and it's well documented through police reports of a CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER trying the doors to get into the home when he thinks the female is alone. Now you and your buddy are sitting at the kitchen table chatting and all of a sudden a strange man walks in the door! Your buddy pulls his firearm and commands the man to leave. The man fails to comply, your friend orders again and the man advances towards him. Shots are fired, police and a defense lawyer are called. If I was a cop or DA that's clear cut self defense in most places. If I were the investigating officer I'd chalk it up to one less psycho on the street to victimize women. All that being said, it is true the more people in on the fact that it was definitely a possibility to shoot the guy, makes it real easy for some self-righteous DA or detective to make a name for himself. I personally think it should be legal to shoot rapists and child molesters if they even get near a child or woman, but alot of people that make decisions on law disagree with me.

ATW525 · September 21, 2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Are you sure? I just ask because cops can legally do things citizens can't and I have a strong feeling that if it came out that you (a normal citizen) baited someone ino your house and then had to kill them because they became a threat things wouldnt go well in court.

How is his buddy's wife coming home from work "baiting someone into his house"? The only thing they did diffferently from her usual routine (besides being there) was leaving a door unlocked. The potential rapist would have no idea the door was unlocked until he was already determined to commit a crime and attempted to enter the house.

PythonGuy · September 21, 2006, 07:20 AM

You could bait and then trap the guy using non-lethal force, shooting him after setting a trap will get you manslaughter at best, murder at worst. If you can handle the consequences of 10 to life in jail that's on you, you might get less time robbing a bank but you're not going to do that, I hope.

garryc · September 21, 2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

On day she typically came home alone, we got to the house a lot earlier but parked way down the street. Came through the back way through the back door. She got home, but it looked like she was the only one there. We hid so we couldn't be seen from the windows, but she could. She sat on the couch where she usually did and we waited, but this time, we left the side door unlocked. If he entered, he would be dead, there is no doubt. He never came. Either he was that good of a stalker, or had given up, right when we were fed up.

Everything about this original post says "TRAP". And it says you intended to kill him if he got in your trap. A prosecutor would eat you alive on it.

bartonkj · September 21, 2006, 08:59 AM

Jason607:

Quote:

I don't belive this can be compared to the rigged shotgun, or even the store owner setting a trap.

Yes it can - and would.

Jason607:

Quote:

OK, I see where everyone thinks I was planning an ambush, I never said that. That wasn't the plan.... We stayed out of sight and one near each door.

Sounds exactly like an ambush to me.

Now don't get me wrong - I have no problem with the idea of taking someone out who is unlawfully in your home. That's why I love the new trend for castle doctrine laws and better yet - Florida's new law. However, the thread as you started it was asking about the legality of the situation. There is a difference between what the law says you can do and what many people think should be allowed.

03Shadowbob · September 21, 2006, 01:11 PM

Wow, first off, that is pretty scary for any female to go through and action needs to be taken. If you think the action needed is to train her in firearms, karate, etc. then good luck with that. However, where I come from and how we were raised should that happen to family, we would take a different type of action.

reils49 · September 21, 2006, 01:41 PM

I say too bad the perv didnt show up! Had it been my wife/house, and he showed up he wouldve been met with a few buckshot loads to the chest. Sounds legal to me as long as hes inside the house. I dont think there is a law requiring that you lock your door either.

Mikeyboy · September 21, 2006, 03:09 PM

Jason...the guy is definately good. I would bet he was watching the house when you were setting up the trap. Hopefully he got the hint and moved on unfortunately to prey on another victim. If he is still around, definately talk to the police about what steps you need to take to get a restraining order against the guy. This way if he is near her the Police have more ammo to actually take action against the guy. If you cannot get a restraining order. I would very gingerly ask that you take the advice from Guntotin Fool. I did it once to a older guy who was stalking my younger brother's girlfriend. He would follow her everywhere. I caught the guy sitting in his car across from our house when the girlfriend was over. I walked up to the car and tapped on the window. The guy rolled it down and I simply said," If someone was to hurt my family or friends, I would kill them slow, burn their house down along with anyone living in it." The guy was trying to say something, but I didn't listen I just walked away and walked into my house. I think he got the hint because I never seen him again. Notice, he did not really know who I was, and I never made a direct threat, I just simply made a statement and walked away.

Samurai · September 21, 2006, 03:16 PM

Yeah, buddy. You DID make a direct threat. And, if the cops had been called, and you had been found to have been carrying, you would have been prosecuted for aggravated assault. (You probably would have gotten off of the charge, but still...)

Glad it worked out for you, but I still wouldn't recommend it to others...

Jason607 · September 21, 2006, 04:14 PM

yeah, really, there is no law about locking the doors. There is also no law stating that a male has to make his presence known. I think some people are sick to say that a girl home alone, or just appearing that way, is bait. I live in Georgia, and this happened walking distance where that man was gunned down by the good semaritian who chased the thug down when he carjacked the lady. When he wrecked the car, he jumped out, tried to run, the good semaritian got out of his truck, and put a few in him killing him. No charges were filed.

It is really sad we live in a country where sex offenders are allow to live in the same communities as everyone else. Most sex offenders did it many times before they got caught, and most of them offend again, but get away with it many, many times before they are caught again.

DonR101395 · September 21, 2006, 04:26 PM

You're asking legal advice on an internet forum?? Remember you get what you pay for.

Socrates · September 21, 2006, 05:46 PM

"We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not."

Any witnesses who could ID this guy? Did anyone actually see him?

Some police don't want to do the paperwork of reporting something, when they know they can't solve it. Problem is, you need the evidence that you reported it.

Glad the guy moved on, and you and yours are safe.

S

James K · September 21, 2006, 05:57 PM

Well, NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE on here, even an attorney, is qualified to give legal advice on what amounts to a "what if" situation.

So I can't and won't give advice. But I will say that if I planned to lay in wait for someone and blow him away, I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T TELL THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!

Anyone who really thinks he is totally anonymous on here or on any site is in cloudcuckooland.

Jim

Socrates · September 21, 2006, 06:00 PM

Well Jim, the good news is judging from the response they got from their police and DA, nothing much is likely to happen, but, I agree.

To take it one step further, you better hire that lawyer, first, to establish client attorney privilidge.

S
PS
Also keep in mind that any advice is general, unless the attorney is familiar with your state, your county, and police.

September 20, 2006, 09:57 PM	#28
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	This is just my opinion. If you decide to plan the death of a specific person, you'd better not tell anyone about it--EVER. I don't care if the external circumstances make it look perfectly justifiable, sitting down and planning a course of action that will end up with a specific person dead is over the edge to my way of thinking. I don't see it as being the same as saying: "I have a plan to defend my family should someone break in. That's not thinking of a specific person, it's focusing on stopping a crime or general category of crime. When you stop dealing with how to defend yourself against crime or criminals and go to planning how to end the life of a specific criminal that gets very touchy, IMO. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association? Last edited by JohnKSa; September 20, 2006 at 11:28 PM.

September 20, 2006, 10:15 PM	#30
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	Garryc has that right. It would not take long for inconsistencies to start surfacing, and then you all would be in deep trouble. Even if the original act wasn't a chargeable offense, lying to the police in the course of an investigation is a baaaaaaaaad thing to do. You never did tell us what jurisdiction you are in. But regardless, a lawyer is the person to ask about something like this. And for heaven's sake, don't put together a plan like this ever again unless you DO get legal advice. Better yet, never put together a plan like this again period. IANAL, but I think that last is just common sense. Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

September 21, 2006, 06:41 AM	#37
marlboroman84 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Location: Memphis,TN Posts: 541	What no one here, except for I think one person, has said is it really depends on the cops and the DA. Say you and your buddy had been at the house and it's well documented through police reports of a CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER trying the doors to get into the home when he thinks the female is alone. Now you and your buddy are sitting at the kitchen table chatting and all of a sudden a strange man walks in the door! Your buddy pulls his firearm and commands the man to leave. The man fails to comply, your friend orders again and the man advances towards him. Shots are fired, police and a defense lawyer are called. If I was a cop or DA that's clear cut self defense in most places. If I were the investigating officer I'd chalk it up to one less psycho on the street to victimize women. All that being said, it is true the more people in on the fact that it was definitely a possibility to shoot the guy, makes it real easy for some self-righteous DA or detective to make a name for himself. I personally think it should be legal to shoot rapists and child molesters if they even get near a child or woman, but alot of people that make decisions on law disagree with me. __________________ Ban Liberals, not guns! ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE (mo-lone lah-veh)

September 21, 2006, 03:16 PM	#45
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	Yeah, buddy. You DID make a direct threat. And, if the cops had been called, and you had been found to have been carrying, you would have been prosecuted for aggravated assault. (You probably would have gotten off of the charge, but still...) Glad it worked out for you, but I still wouldn't recommend it to others... __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

September 20, 2006, 03:30 PM	#26
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Capt, sometimes police tempt a man's soul. "Setting the trap, as you described it, is completely legal. We do it all the time with hookers. A female cop is placed on the street, dressed like a hooker. She's the bait for a "John", but the trick is that she cannot solicit anyone. As long as the John makes the approach and does the soliciting, it isn't entrapment." When I was working in the SFDA's office, we had one female officer that worked vice. She made Playboy bunnies look like boys. I used to suffer everytime she came in to testify, after working all night, in her skin tight, black, outfits. She was one in a million, and, if you never contemplated prostitution, she would make you. I think that qualifies as entrapment. This person would normally NEVER consider prostitution, but, this woman would make you consider it. No prior inclination, never done it before, but looking at her, I would certainly think about it... "I would prefer the method of offering to buy the guy a drink, and then explaining in detail that should your friends wife suffer a hang nail in her home, you would be more than willing to dispose of his body in a redimix cement truck. Explain then that you are going to find any and every one he every cared about and do to them what he did to her. I have used this method twice, once with a guy who was stalking my wife and another who was abusing my cousin, both times when faced with plain stark terms of the end of their life, they have stopped. This may not be the PC answer, but it does work. Don't threaten, don't say in ear shot of anyone, but let him know that if he continues to bother her, his alloted time is up." I like the above approach, but, the guy might be wired, and, it's assault, in most jurisdictions. The threat of force, when you have the ability to do it, at close proximity, when the person has a good reason to believe you will do it, is usually assault. If it isn't, it's probably not going to achieve your end goal. The problem with sex offenders is they have a very high rate of repeating, something like 96%, and, it's almost beyond being a rational act with them. Logic, and threat of force is not likely to work, unless, as I said, it's either assault, or, it's followed by a bit of battery. Also, setting the trap might be legal, or viewed as such for LEO, and, the rules for you might be considerably different. It all depends on state law. If the Louisiana government hasn't managed to get a hold of your guns, with their illegal confiscation, I believe that state, and Texas, at times, holds you can shoot an intruder, period, on your property. Louisiana was based on French law, and, it put property over people, which, in retrospect, may have a number of valid points. I think Kalifornia requires you to back up, give the guy the keys to your safe, allow him to take all objects, rape your wife, and, only then if he is within arms reach, or starts shooting at you with one of the guns he took out of your safe, are you allowed to shoot the intruder...:barf: S

September 20, 2006, 08:20 PM	#27
Jason607 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2006 Posts: 138	Thanks for the replies. I guess a good prosicuter could say that because you sleep with a gun in your dresser, that could be a trap as well. It was not our first option, but the police weren't very helpfull, probally because they couldn't. The scary part was that this guy was good, very good, too good, must have had practice. We had several reports, I belive it was nine reports in all. If it did happen, the trap part would have not come out. Let the lawyer do the talking. See, we first stopped at our buddy's house, and decided to walk to our other buddy's house because it was just basically, accross the back yard and down a little. We just happened to be hanging out when this perv came running in the door. I wanted to just bust him in the act, but my other buddy wanted a peice of him for stalking his wife. A convicted sex offender lets himself in uninvited when it appeared a girl was left alone. I know the police are limited, but I think thier egos were getting to them. They started saying she was imagining things, because except that one time, there wasn't a trace of this guy. In all, they moved. That was a relief. Another woman was raped about a mile away. We taught her to shoot, but she just gets too afraid when trying to pull the trigger. If she's scared to use it, she's better off without it. I don't belive this can be compared to the rigged shotgun, or even the store owner setting a trap. What was the difference? I'll tell you, those traps were against people steeling in what they thought was an inhabited place, in our trap, the building was occupied, but we just didn't quite reviel by who and how many. The laws around here are pretty conservative.

September 20, 2006, 10:25 PM	#31
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Some states do have such laws as it's against the law to conspire to commit murder. Often used against the mob. Isn't that what you just did, and then put on the internet? A good DA would have you all in jail, getting one to turn on the other, in minutes, if this is the level of intelligence you show, by discussing it on the net... S

September 20, 2006, 10:36 PM	#32
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	Bartonkj, springmom, capn charlie, and JohnKSa posts are most helpful. Two questions: Is it illegal, and would you actually be convicted. Two separate questions. Is it illegal? Yes, what you described is premeditated, cold-blooded murder, for which you could be put to death in some states, had you been 'successful', and the TRUE FACTS ever came out, and were provable in court. UNLESS he had a gun pointed at you immediately upon entering, AND you actually feared for life or limb, AND you live in a make my day law state. Would you actually be convicted? That depends on many many factors, most notably of which are (a) whether your state has a so-called "Make My Day" law, and (b) to a lesser extent, whether your state has a Castle Doctrine law (15 do now). But it's also going to depend on who did the shooting, you or your friend, since the make my day law, if present, wouldn't apply to YOU. Also depends on whether you're WILLING to lie when you are questioned, as to what actually happened. Also on how GOOD of a liar you are. Also, on the attitude of the investigator and the (possibly intentional) lack of detail on the report. Also on the general political and personal attitudes and beliefs of the District Attorney for your county (which in turn depends on the general pro- or anti-defense and pro- or anti-gun attitude of the folks in the state and county you live in. Also on whether the guy was in fact armed, whether you claim you saw a weapon or what you thought was a weapon. How big and mean and scary he was. Whether the deceased actually had a criminal record, and of what and to what extent. Also, whether you told anyone of your intent who is NOT a good liar, or not willing to lie, and whether such a person is every questioned or comes forward, and whether upon investigation, the cop finds this thread by you on this site from your history on your computer. And on and on and on and on.... Bottom line, in a make-my-day-law-state, chances are excellent that y'all would get away with the murder, for better or worse, IF it was your friend pulling the trigger; not you. That law only applies if the shooter/defender is in HIS OWN house/homestead. Waiting til they get through the frame is outstanding advice, because being inSIDE the home is the key to having the make-my-day-law burden-of-proof shift in your favor. Don't shoot in the back either. P.S. The fact that the door is locked or unlocked makes very little difference, except to the extent that the intentional unlocking can be used to prove your state of mind as to malice aforethought for that element of murder. A "breaking" (as in "breaking and entering") can occur by the perpetrator just by opening the door using the knob, which can in turn kick in the make my day law. Forcing a door open by breaking a locking mechanism is NOT required to meet the element of breaking in a B&E. Socrates, lol, that description of that lady reminds me of the "black man's kryptonite" or "white she devil" in "Undercover Brother" - Denise Richards in a white skin-tight leather suit.

September 20, 2006, 11:25 PM	#33
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	FF: Excellent post. In Louisiana, you can shoot a police officer on your property, and, since they KNOW they are not supposed to be there, without your permission, it's a justifiable shooting, or was last time I checked. Katrina may have changed that, a bit. In fact, shooting ANYONE on your property was legal. That's the extreme. By the way, at one time, I was dating Miss March, 1988, or so, Diane Hsu Lee. She was drop dead gorgeous in person, and while a tomboy, well, she wasn't put together like a boy. It was my stupid suggestion that she give up modern dance, and go be a Playboy bunny. Well, she did... And, she married the photographer, who then dumped her. This woman was also oriental, had long black hair, a perfect, extremely well endowed, atheletic police officer body, in skin tight stuff she wore in SF. I found her picture. It was in the dictionary, right next to entrapment She was to die for, or, for most, go to jail for... I see a woman in the same category about once every 5 years... Much better to discuss then conspiring to commit murder, or really, considering it, and posting it on the internet... S

September 20, 2006, 11:38 PM	#34
Fn-P9 Member Join Date: September 19, 2006 Posts: 47	This post seems kinda funny. Not so much haha but seems that this guys girls was "probably" in "possible" grave bodily harm. Guy rattling the door knob unanounced. IMHO it does seem kinda screwy to be hiding the bushing at the normal time of his arrival but again what else to do. My point is here:All of us seem concerned for the posters freedom but what about this scumbag. Personally Id feel way better he getting knocked off. Seeing that then he wont bother me or anyone else. I'd take a shovel and whack his man hood off. lol

September 21, 2006, 12:19 AM	#35
Jason607 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2006 Posts: 138	OK, I see where everyone thinks I was planning an ambush, I never said that. That wasn't the plan, but we realized dealing with a crazy person, that could happen. We were ready if he came charging in the door to use deadly force. We stayed out of sight and one near each door. The idea was to protect her and catch him in the act. If he comes through the door and charges one of us, then what? If he opened a door, or tried the door, he might get held gunpoint, probally beaten by the girls husband, but if he opens the door, sees one of us and procedes to charge, that would be threatening our lives. If he came in and proceded to try to rape my buddy's wife, what were we suposed to do, allow it because we have no right since we didn't give fair warning that she wasn't alone? We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not. Once again, I never said the idea was to kill him, but to catch him in the act. I'm know that you can't expect normal reactions out of crazy people. No doubt he would have some weapon on him, and if he saw he just got caught, knowing what happens to second offence (maby it was third or more, we don't know) that he's going away, he might decide to attack us. So I supose if say someone was stalking your child/wife on the way to work, and the police weren't helping, if you were to follow your wife to work to watch her back, and say that person ran her off the road and proceded to attack her, you can't do anything because it would be premeditated?

September 21, 2006, 07:20 AM	#39
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	You could bait and then trap the guy using non-lethal force, shooting him after setting a trap will get you manslaughter at best, murder at worst. If you can handle the consequences of 10 to life in jail that's on you, you might get less time robbing a bank but you're not going to do that, I hope.

September 21, 2006, 01:11 PM	#42
03Shadowbob Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 176	Wow, first off, that is pretty scary for any female to go through and action needs to be taken. If you think the action needed is to train her in firearms, karate, etc. then good luck with that. However, where I come from and how we were raised should that happen to family, we would take a different type of action.

September 21, 2006, 01:41 PM	#43
reils49 Member Join Date: September 13, 2006 Posts: 89	I say too bad the perv didnt show up! Had it been my wife/house, and he showed up he wouldve been met with a few buckshot loads to the chest. Sounds legal to me as long as hes inside the house. I dont think there is a law requiring that you lock your door either.

September 21, 2006, 03:09 PM	#44
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	Jason...the guy is definately good. I would bet he was watching the house when you were setting up the trap. Hopefully he got the hint and moved on unfortunately to prey on another victim. If he is still around, definately talk to the police about what steps you need to take to get a restraining order against the guy. This way if he is near her the Police have more ammo to actually take action against the guy. If you cannot get a restraining order. I would very gingerly ask that you take the advice from Guntotin Fool. I did it once to a older guy who was stalking my younger brother's girlfriend. He would follow her everywhere. I caught the guy sitting in his car across from our house when the girlfriend was over. I walked up to the car and tapped on the window. The guy rolled it down and I simply said," If someone was to hurt my family or friends, I would kill them slow, burn their house down along with anyone living in it." The guy was trying to say something, but I didn't listen I just walked away and walked into my house. I think he got the hint because I never seen him again. Notice, he did not really know who I was, and I never made a direct threat, I just simply made a statement and walked away.

September 21, 2006, 04:14 PM	#46
Jason607 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2006 Posts: 138	yeah, really, there is no law about locking the doors. There is also no law stating that a male has to make his presence known. I think some people are sick to say that a girl home alone, or just appearing that way, is bait. I live in Georgia, and this happened walking distance where that man was gunned down by the good semaritian who chased the thug down when he carjacked the lady. When he wrecked the car, he jumped out, tried to run, the good semaritian got out of his truck, and put a few in him killing him. No charges were filed. It is really sad we live in a country where sex offenders are allow to live in the same communities as everyone else. Most sex offenders did it many times before they got caught, and most of them offend again, but get away with it many, many times before they are caught again.

September 21, 2006, 04:26 PM	#47
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	You're asking legal advice on an internet forum?? Remember you get what you pay for.

September 21, 2006, 05:46 PM	#48
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	"We also had three video cameras, so even if we saw someone come onto the property, we could at least get a picture. The officer told us that basically, unless there is proof that person is on the property near the home, then they can't do anything. A girl home alone should not be considered bait. It is also frustrating when police tell you she is imagining things, when we know she's not." Any witnesses who could ID this guy? Did anyone actually see him? Some police don't want to do the paperwork of reporting something, when they know they can't solve it. Problem is, you need the evidence that you reported it. Glad the guy moved on, and you and yours are safe. S

September 21, 2006, 05:57 PM	#49
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Well, NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE on here, even an attorney, is qualified to give legal advice on what amounts to a "what if" situation. So I can't and won't give advice. But I will say that if I planned to lay in wait for someone and blow him away, I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T TELL THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET! Anyone who really thinks he is totally anonymous on here or on any site is in cloudcuckooland. Jim

September 21, 2006, 06:00 PM	#50
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Well Jim, the good news is judging from the response they got from their police and DA, nothing much is likely to happen, but, I agree. To take it one step further, you better hire that lawyer, first, to establish client attorney privilidge. S PS Also keep in mind that any advice is general, unless the attorney is familiar with your state, your county, and police.