do you think custer could have survived if he had taken the gatlin guns?

[swabjocky]

I think he could have because the gatlins could have helped hold back the indians .i guess we will never know.they didnt have much hope out in the open like that.



swab

[Lavan]

he would have had a MUCH better chance. Against a jillion Indians, smallpox was the only thing to use.

[C.R.Sam]

NO

[USP45]

If you were Custer, and you had the info he had, would you have bothered with them?

~USP

[bruels]

From what I have read of the post Civil War era, the U.S. Army in Custer's time wasn't that well trained or motivated. Marksmanship training was nil due minimal funding for training. The standard load out for a trooper was something like twelve rounds for his revolver and maybe twenty rounds for his carbine. I think one of Custer's last orders before he rode on to engage the indian camp was to bring up the pack train with the rest of the regiment's ammuntion.

I think that even if Custer had his Gatlings, if his troops weren't trained to provide them support, the guns would have been quickly overrun.

[trapshooter]

Caught the tail end of a show about the LBH fight on the History Channel (I think) the other day. Basically, camera crew on scene filming the view Custer & troops had, and historians talked about what happened in a tactical sense. Gist was that the Indians made use of draws/gullies to get close and pick off most troopers before the 'final' charge. Whole thing didn't last very long. It started as a running fight then retrograde movement to final stand. I don't think there would have been time or opportunity for Custer's men to set up and use Gatlings effectively if this show was accurate.

[MeekAndMild]

Could you refresh my memory about this? Didn't the 7th carry something single shot like trapdoor Springfields? And didn't the Indians have Henry repeaters or something similar? If these two murky recollections are true then Custer could have done a lot better in the riflery department without having to resort to Gatilings.

[faraway]

Wouldn't have mattered if he did take a few Gatlings. First during this period, the artillery (and gatlings weighed quite a bit and were generally a artillery resp.) tended to be hauled by horses that were condemned for cav. use. So chances are pretty good that the Gatling's would have never made it there anyway. Also, the Gatling's might have been useful at first...but after Custer lost his tactical mobility...a lot of the fire from the Sioux etc came from arrows that were fired out from draws etc. Also it's likely that Custer wouldn't have taken them anyway, too slow, and another unit (he refused additional support from other cav. elements etc. And also, Custer forgot who he was fighting, his splitting up to attack the flanks was a tactic that worked well on civil war infantry but wasn't as effective against plains warriors. And last..in the perception of many, Custer was an idiot (although brave)...an ancestor was with the relief column that came up after the LBH fight...he spent about 5 pages in his little book..explaining why G.A Custer was a fool. That said, Custer's so much a symbol that how he's viewed says more on us than him...ie. Gary Cooper's Custer vs Richard Mulligans in Little Big Man.

[faraway]

Oh yeah. Meek and Mild. The seventh (excepting some officers) carried model 1873 45-70 carbines as the main weapon. Not a bad weapon for distance (good to 400 yds or so and the infantry tended to use theirs at a distance..nothing like being on foot or in a wagon to encourage good distance shooting-actually a Lt named Baldwin 'charged' an NA group of warriors etc with infantry wagons/infantry..and won) but if fired and loaded rapidly, the cases tended to stick in the breech and being balloon headed, the extractor tended to rip the case haed off..big trouble. On the whole..cav. soldiers at the time got little practice and were poor shots...however most shot better than tribal warriors. (the Ute's in Colo however did have a reputation of being quite good shots) The Sioux and Cheyenne at LBH were better equiped with guns than thought earlier (research from a recent fire that cleared off the area). But even with Henry's Spencers etc how much they could be fired was a question. "Hostile" NA's always had ammo limits..actaully the Sioux (about the same time as Berdan)had made cases refireable by fitting percussion caps into fired cases.

[ajaxinacan]

If we look at the traditional American version of events, maybe he could have won with Gatlin guns.

I subscribe to the Indian version, which says that Custer did not engage the Indians early in the battle, and therefore allowed his forces to be destroyed. They were prepared to withdraw when Custer joined the battle, but when he did not, they were perplexed but continued to attack his divided forces. (Someone refresh my memory on the name of the Major who first engaged the Indians, and was forced into retreat). According to the Sioux, Custer paced back and forth among his remaining troops and would not relieve the initial attack. They thought he was crazy, but this gave them the freedom to remain engaged. Afterwards, they were free to destroy Custer with their whole force still in tact. If you do not disregard their version, which I do not, then Gatlins would not have made much difference.

The Sioux version of events paints a picture of Custer as a timid, confused, and ineffective commander. He seemed to think that the initial attack would send the enemy into a rout which he could exploit with his remaining forces. Not unusual for an American to think that. When they did not rout, he seemed noncommittal.

JMHO

[FPrice]

I am sttting here trying to think (on a Monday morning that IS a chore!). I think the Major you thinking of was Reno. About a year ago I did a lot of reading about this battle but most of the facts are kinda hazy now.

I thought it was Capt Benteen who made first contact but i am not sure right now. I'll check when I get home, but by then someone else will probably pipe up with the correct answer.

Another point to consider in the battle was that Custer's forces were probably very fatigued from an all-night forced march.

[HankB]

I remember reading that the Gatlings available to Custer were a different caliber (.50/70?) than the trooper's trapdoor Springfields and were thought to be unreliable in the field due to the gravity feed. Custer supposedly left them and their ammo behind as he didn't want his mobility reduced for what he saw as newfangled gizmos of dubious reliability.

Of course, we all know how things turned out . . .

[faraway]

Reno was the major who made first contact...got pushed back up a ridge. Cpt Benteen, initially had been sent off on a recon, the wrong direction. The 'bring packs' message that Custer had sent via Trooper Martini, went to Benteen. Eventually, Benteen got to Reno...and that's has far as it went. Actually Benteen held the defense on that ridge together, otherwise those companies would have been overun too. A Cpt Wier, with the Reno/Benteen contingent tried to go to the sound of the firing (Custer) but was pushed back. It's possible that Benteen might have been sent out on his recon to nowhere...as Benteen and Custer hated each other..during the Wasahita fight..a Lt and a squad were cut off (and later found to be cut up)..Custer initially refused to send a probe to find out what happened to them. At any rate he would have lost...8 days before Crook with a much larger force (including 300 some Shoshoni's) had been forced to retreat at Rosebud. By essentially the same NA who took most of the 7th out.

[Double Naught Spy]

Probably not because Custer's main problem was not arms, but stupidity, bigotry, and lack of military leadership. When ambushed and everyone is running around like chickens with no heads, who is going to run the gatlin gun? It certainly would not have been anymore setup and ready as the rest of the troops. Besides, Custer didn't feel he needed such weaponry against "savages."

If he would not have gotten himself and so many others killed there, he would have elsewhere.

[paratrooper]

I believe that one of the headstones (Reno or Benteen) indicated that he was a coward . His family fought for an investigation and it was later (just in the last 20 years or so) "surmised" that with limited commo there could have been a mix-up . I have been to the Little Big Horn and it looks a lot like the Wisconsin Dells . Lots of places to hide and "loft" arrows while still maintaining cover .

[legalhack]

paratrooper, custer didn't use his 203's to cover the deadspace. No active patrolling, no ambushes out. Left the claymores so he could take more pogie-bait. Left the HMG's so's he could take the computers to produce the power-point briefings. Oh, had to leave the mortars so he could bring the generator to power his mess tent.

Sounds like the army of today......

[Coltdriver]

I had a chance to do some business in Billings, Montana earlier this year and on the way back home I spent an hour at the LBH memorial.

It is one of the neatest parks I have ever seen. You drive about 10 miles down a narrow road along the ridge above the Powder River. When you get to the end you turn around and about every two or three hundred yards there is a view point with commentary on the progression of the battle beginning with the turn around point.

What I concluded is that Custer underestimated the strength of his advesary and then he got strung out along this ridge at the top of gullies and ravines. From the initial point of recon to the location of his last stand is about seven or eight miles.

By the time he got to the point of his last stand his situation was hopeless. He was exposed on nearly all sides by about 100 or more yards and every approach to his location was well covered by hills and ravines.

Basically he got in over his head and only about another 2 or 3 thousand men could have helped. Then gattling guns could have been meaninful.

[Andrewh]

I thought most historians agreed it was just bad tactics. He did not use his weapons as effectivly as he could have.
I thought there was another group similarly armed that had encountered the Indians Custer fought earlier and had routed them by taking advantage of the trapdoor springfields range.
While the lever action is fast at shooting, it lacks the range of the springfield. The earlier group kept the Indians at bay untill they retreated by picking them off before they could get in.

[paratrooper]

LEGALHACK: Custer could have used some M-79's . Seriously , he had kicked so much butt with such little resistance he figured that he could just walk through those fellas . He found out that wearing an Arrow shirt isn't all it's cracked up to be .

[Freedom in theSkies]

Naw... He would need ammo to shoot out of 'em too.

[Hoss Cartwright]

Yup,

The Gatling guns would have slowed Custer down so much that he wouldn't have been where he wasn't supposed to be. Custer was supposed to wait for the arrival of two other armys, under the command(s) of Gen. John Gibbon and Gen George Crook, before he began that attack. It was his desire to arrive first and claim all the glory for the 7th cavalry that caused his demise.

[paratrooper]

HOSS: Interesting that you should mention that . If he had taken the gattlin's AND they DID slow him down he would have missed his date with destiny . Besides LBH the biggie on his resume was the defense of Wash. DC by leading the Wolverines against the Southern troops . Sometimes when I see the stupidity that oozes out of DC I wonder why he ever did that .

[Indy_SIG]

I have to agree with Bruels. As America always does after a war, military spending and training went to virtually zero in favor of social spending that had been largely curtailed during the war.

Had Custer had Gatling guns available, it is probable that they would not have been in good working order and/or properly supplied with ammo. The historical account of Custer's "last stand" suggests that nothing short of Divine intervention would have saved him. Custer's reputation as a "sloppy" soldier at least earned him immortality; his Civil War accomplishments were mostly forgettable.

Richard Gatling was a struggling lawyer in downtown Indianapolis when his interest in firearms led to the invention of the Gatling Gun. The prototype he built for patent submission is in the Indiana State Museum. After retiring, Gatling returned to Indy and is buried here....ironically, about 100 feet from another famous Indiana resident....John Dillinger.

[MADISON]

General George Armstrong custer refused to WAIT a few days, to be issued WINCHESTER REPEATING RIFLES. The went into battle with SINGLE SHOT 45-70 rifles.

[Indy_SIG]

Actually Madison, Custer had little to do with the decision to move up the Rosebud. Gibbon's supply train did have ammo and additional rifles, but they were the exact same ones that Custer and his men already had, which were a mixture of single shot and repeating rifles.

General Terry purposely sent Custer ahead, basically as a scouting party, while he continued to amass Gibbon's troops and prepare to merge with Custer in 2-3 days. When Custer's scouts reported finding that the Indians had crossed the river and were now in the valley of the Little Big Horn, Custer took it upon himself to advance, separate Reno's men from his own, and had Reno attack. The scouts estimated the Indian force at about 500-800....in reality, conservative estimates are that there were at least 3000 of them. Reno's attack ended in failure, and he and his men retreated and regrouped on a bluff overlooking the place where they had just fought.

While the Reno battle took place, Custer and his officers had moved into a location where they could see the battle unfold. Unfortunately, it was also a place where the Indians could clearly see the officer's party. With Reno trapped on the bluff and in no condition to offer assistance, the entire Indian warrior body attacked Custer's position. Custer attempted to retreat, which most military strategists now agree was his final mistake. The best ground in the area to defend was the ground that Custer was on when the attack on him started. He gave up a superior position in an attempt to run.

The burying parties who found Custer and his officers say the corpses were within 50 yards of where Custer's Indian scouts say they last saw him before the fighting started. It suggests that Custer and his men were overwhelmed and killed quickly. Conservative estimates of the scouts, and from the attacking Sioux, is that Custer was outnumbered at least 10 to 1. He never had a chance, with Gatling guns, all repeating rifles.....it wouldn't have mattered.

In hindsight, ego killed Custer and his men. Had he waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons to join him, not only would he have had a force much closer in size to the Indians, but hopefully Terry would have ordered a much more strategically and tactically thought out attack. Terry and Gibbons didn't arrive for nearly 2 days after the Custer disaster had ended.

Why was all this fighting going on in the first place? Since the end of the war, gold prospectors had been going into the Indian lands, illegally, to search for gold. The problem was getting so bad that Grant ordered General Sheridan to devise a way to get the Indians to agree to allow gold mining operations, which would be in direct violation of the treaty the U.S. had with them. When the Indians wouldn't agree, and attacks on white prospectors continued to grow, Sheridan ordered Terry to "eliminate" the problem (Grant did not give this order, but he also did not attempt to prevent it when he was informed). There had been several battles before Little Big Horn. Most had not resulted in a large number of Indian or Army deaths, but was definitely destroying the Indian's homes and way of life. By the time the Battle of Little Big Horn occurred, the Indians were quite pissed off and desperate.

The "Manifest Destiny" mentality that swept the Nation after the Civil War doomed the Indian Nation to destruction. I'm not saying it was wrong (history is full of similar examples of a superior force conquering a weaker one), I don't even disagree with it, but.....from the Indian's perspective, they were trying to repel an invader that was attempting to force them from land they had occupied for thousands of years. Although they ultimately lost the war, the Battle of LBH had to be a badge of pride for the Indian Nation for decades after it ended.