new scope...mounting?

skizzums · March 24, 2015, 11:00 AM

I am just curious, what is the proper ay to make sure your scope isn't canted at all with the rifle. I have always eyeballed it and have been fine, but is there a way, without tools to make sure my scope is absolutely straight(not canted)?

Pahoo · March 24, 2015, 11:11 AM

Quote:

without tools

Catching the spirit of what you are asking, you mean, "no special tools". You are going to get a number of replies but to some extent, they all take tools. First of, you eye-balling it, is a great way to start. Basically after doing just that, I do the following;

I level and anchor the rifle on my bench. The stock is in a padded carpenter's vice. I just use a series of cheap levels to confirm that my rifle is level. I always have a plumb-line hanging in the line of fire, on the wall. I put my scope in the lowest magnification and align my vertical reticle to the plumb-line. I again, confirm my level and tighten everything down. I confirm my level one last time and call it good. ......

Keep in mind that you are wanting to plumb the reticles and not the scope cap. There is a difference. ...

Good luck and;
Be Safe !!!

livingintx · March 24, 2015, 11:16 AM

I use two line levels from Home Depot for $4 each - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-3...-287/100078704

I put one on a flat surface on the rifle such the top rail the scope will be mounted to. The other I put on the elevation turret.

Since these levels have 6 flat surfaces you can rotate them to where it's easiest to see.

skizzums · March 24, 2015, 11:40 AM

okay, easy enough. I have a vice and I have levels, I just couldn't think of a way to equate that to left/right cant. I guess if the turrets are dead on, that'll work. the plumb line is a great idea too, and will probably come in handy more than I think. I may end up doing that in the long run. great idea. thanks!!

I was thinking I could also just put a perfectly level target on the far wall of the vice, and then if the gun is perfectly level, viola...or am I missing something that would make that not work?

Pahoo · March 24, 2015, 12:16 PM

Quote:

viola...or am I missing something that would make that not work?

I don't see why it wouldn't but here is a thought, if your target is out of level, you will have a problem. If a plumb-line is out of plumb, the whole world has a problem. .....

Be Safe !!!

JeepHammer · March 24, 2015, 02:10 PM

With respect to the others, which Pahoo is DEAD CORRECT...

Use as much or as little of this as you feel the need for your particular application...

----

There are a couple of steps you want to do first.

The very first thing is to get a good CHEEK WELD on your stock,
Then determine how much 'Rise' you need to get the optic centered with your eye.

This should be NATURAL,
You should be able to weld that cheek to the stock and NOT have to move your head up/down/right/left to center on the optic.

If you don't have a natural cheek weld with a centered optic, then it doesn't matter what else you do, you aren't going to shoot well CONSISTENTLY.

The first time you don't search around for centerline of the optic, you are going to miss, have a flier, ect.

ERGONOMICS will make you a more accurate shooter,
And shooting will be a lot more fun if you don't have to search for centerline every time you shoulder the rifle.

-----

The second thing to do is use a base mount on the receiver that is appropriate to what you are building for.

The little aluminum strips that mount on the receiver are fine for .22 rimfire,

But if you are shooting anything with recoil,
Or anything at long distance,
You want HEAVY, LONG, ONE PIECE mount on the receiver.

Heavy recoil rifles will actually get MORE ACCURATE with a solid, full length rail bolted to the top of the receiver...
You are adding STIFFNESS to the receiver when you use a heavy mount rail,
Less twist in the receiver, where it's cut away for the ejection port means a more accurate rifle.

Find some LONG SCREWS that are the same thread as your receiver, Let them stick up.

Use a plumb line (Plumb 'Bob' Weight/String) and center the BORE on the string.

Then check your extended screws, make sure your screws are aligned with the plumb bob line.
This will tell you if your mounting screws are in line with the barrel bore,
Or offset to one side or the other.

It's a 'By Sight', not perfectly scientific, but it will give you a good idea if the receiver was drilled centered at the factory.
Aligning the screws with the front sight works also.
If all the screws line up directly with the front sight,
The holes are probably drilled inline with the bore.

----

The second step is to mount a LONG, RIGID RAIL type optic mount to the receiver.

Some people bed or bond the rail to the receiver,
Epoxy bedding the receiver rail to the receiver to fill any voids that might effect the accuracy later when temperature expands/contracts the receiver/mount.

Now, line up the front sight/bore with the plumb line again,
Dead center,
Then use a 'Spirit' level side to side.
The front sight *Should* line up directly with bore on the plumb line,
And a slight adjustment (Bedding) should get your mount on the receiver dead level, centered on the bore.

-----

Once the mounting/bedding process is done,
Then you can mount rings.

Stamp rings FRONT & REAR,
Also stamp them in a way they get back on the mount rail with the front facing the muzzle.
(I use one 'Dot' punch mark on the front ring, facing forward, And two dots facing forward on the rear ring)

Once the rings cradles are mounted and torqued,
Then it's time to HONE the rings straight with each other.

Rings RARELY, IF EVER, come out of the box, go on a rail in a straight line.
They are usually cocked up or down, left or right when you try and align them.
Honing gets them in a STRAIGHT line for a change,
So they don't put a side load (Twist) the optics tube.

A bent tube is NEVER going to be accurate. PERIOD.
Those rings go on the rail at all kinds of different angles,
Putting a curve in the tube, even bending it 'S' shaped.

Lapping those rings STRAIGHT WITH EACH OTHER is mandatory if you intend to shoot well at different distances or long range.

I've had guys argue this up one side and down the other,
But being a machinist, I've made gauges that have a cut out for the turrets, and when I put that gauge against the tube and slip a feeler gauge under one side or the other it's pretty graphically illustrated/demonstrated...

----

Now that mount is straight, level, square with bore,
Now that the rings are aligned with each other,
Drop that optic in the cradles and level the rifle on bench,
Bore centered on that plumb line one more time.

----

RUN YOUR FULL RANGE OF ADJUSTMENTS ON THE OPTICS!
FULLY DOWN TO FULLY UP ON ELEVATION,
COUNT THE NUMBER OF TURNS,
CRANK BACK DOWN HALF THE NUMBER OF TURNS IN THE ADJUSTMENT!

This will set the elevation in the CENTER of the tube.

Do the same with Left to Right,
Again, center the VERTICLE LINE in the middle!

STATING OFF WITH AN OFF CENTER RECTILE CAN SCREW YOU UP SOMETHING FIERCE!

----

Plumb line MUST align with the ELEVATION line in the optic, While the bore stays centered on the plumb line and the receiver stays level left to right.

I'll say that again,
The PLUMB LINE is your 'STANDARD',
Everything MUST center align with that plumb line,
The bore, the vertical reticle line,
While the receiver stays LEVEL, LEFT TO RIGHT.

-----

When you put top caps on the ring cradles,
DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN!
DO NOT TRY AND GET THE TOP CAP TO MEET THE CRADLE BY CRANKING DOWN ON THE SCREWS!

The average 'Torque' for optics screws is somewhere between 7 INCH Pounds and 15 INCH Pounds
(NOT FOOT POUNDS!)

The WILL be a gap between upper and lower ring halves,
This is NORMAL, and it's there to keep TENSION on the halves, allowing the screws to do their jobs correctly...

-----

A little dab of SILICONE grease in the rings will help with thermal expansion issues.
Dinosaur grease stinks, dries out too quickly and stains.
Clear silicone grease works VERY well to fill any machining voids in the rings and allows for thermal expansion without issues.

'Tune Up' grease from the local auto parts stores is normally silicone grease, and it comes in VERY SMALL, inexpensive packages.

----

Two more bits of information,

If you are mounting on an ALUMINUM RECEIVER,
Then use an ALUMINUM MOUNT.

If you use aluminum on steel, the two have different THERMAL expansion rates,
Meaning one (The aluminum) will expand about twice as much as the steel, (and do it 3 times faster than steel) when the rifle sees temperature changes.

If you are mounting a rail to a STEEL RECEIVER,
THEN USE A STEEL MOUNT!
Same reason, just in reverse.

The second bit of information,

ONE SCREW on each side of the optics tube WILL NOT hold torque on the caps!

Two screws will spread the load of the cap out, and hold torque.

Three screws on each side of the optics tubes is overkill,
But works OK if you run the MIDDLE SCREW at slightly UNDER the torque of the end screws.

The LONGER the foot print of the rings (Forward/Backwards) the better chance you have of getting the rings back on the rail correctly and not having to hone them again.

Once installed, you shouldn't take the rings off the rail unless they are quite long.
The longer the footprint on the mount rail, the more likely the rings will center/square up with the rail again.

If you remove the rings from the rail, check your zero before betting on hitting anything...
People argue this all the time, but 1/2" shift isn't uncommon with nothing more than removing rings from rail mount, even if you leave the rings on the tube...

----

PICATINNY RAIL MOUNTS FOR AR OR 'TACTICAL' RIFLES...

The flat top AR is a prime example,
Where the rings and base are all one piece are the most accurate...

Swapping optics and keeping 'Zero' are a snap with this long, ONE PIECE mount.

If there aren't any burrs or dings on the flat top Picatinny rail surfaces,
The mount/ring (one piece) *Should* drop back on without changing zero.

The extra long footprint of that particular mount will almost guarantee a repeat zero,
And since the rings are one piece with the mount, the rings automatically stay in place on the mount.

This particular unit is usually CNC machined in one process, so the rings usually line up without honing,
Or if you do hone, it won't take as long as it will with 'Normal' rings.

-----

This *SHOULD* get you into the 'X' ring every shot!
Your zero won't shift around on you since the optics are centered over the bore,
The plumb line eliminated any 'Cant' in the optic reticle,
And you are now set up to take thermal expansion/contraction from ambient temps, sun, shooting, ect.

-----

If this is a bolt rifle you are working on,
To get that rail on the receiver level,
Whittle down some small wooden match sticks to a flat tapered end and have them handy...

Coat your screws with 'Mold Release' or some other kind of dry lubricant so they don't epoxy down in the holes.
Not a bad idea to coat the threads in the holes either...

Tape over your receiver leaving nothing but the screw holes showing,
Screw down your rail LIGHTLY,
Then use an 'Exacto' knife to cut out a bare patch where the mount will contact the receiver.

Once the epoxy bedding material hits the rail, you have a LIMITED time to work here,

Put the screws into the rail, squishing the epoxy out,
Clean off excess...

But leave a SLIGHT little gap between receiver and mount.
Screws not 'Torqued' to full value yet...

Make sure the bore/front sight is centered on your plumb line,
Then use the wooden matches, or even the thickness of a piece of tape to get the mount LEVEL on the receiver when it's torqued by the screws into place.

This takes a spirit level, side to side, to get the rail LEVEL with the bore centerline.

Bedding this way will GUARANTEE the top of the mount rail is level with the bore,

Since the match sticks or tape will move the mount to the 'Level' position.

(Level is NOT centered, but you do what you can with what you have...)

Clean off excess epoxy before it hardens,
The tape will protect the receiver, pull it off once the epoxy is done 'Running' and it stands up on it's own.

Leave the wedges in place.
The epoxy will get 95% 'Hard' before you remove wedges,

Epoxy ALL THE WAY HARD before you torque screws to full value...

----

Once that rail is LEVEL with the bore,
Then you can shave/shim rings left/right to CENTER with the bore.

This is the reason you don't usually want to dismount the rings from the rail, or the rail from the rifle once this is done...
Shims can fall out, short foot print rings might not go back on the rail in exactly the same position, ect.

skizzums · March 24, 2015, 03:58 PM

great thanks. this Is an AR with a Nikon one-piece mount. I was only concerned with getting the cant level. but all good info to have

coyotewsm · March 24, 2015, 11:41 PM

I used the wheeler engineering professional recticle leveling system. You can get it from midway USA for 39.99. Also if you search (how to properly mount a scope) on YouTube a tutorial done by Larry potterfield will come up showing the whole scope mounting process.

tobnpr · March 25, 2015, 05:49 PM

Tricky part sometimes, is getting a "flat" on the rifle receiver capable of receiving the level (I use a small, "line level").

Always make sure the level is eyeballed as precise to 90 degrees to the barrel bore as you can get it. Some scopes don't have flat turrets capable of holding a level, so I'll level and secure the rifle in a rest, and put the vertical crosshair on the corner of a (preferably two-story) house some distance away. I also use the building corner to cross-check against the turrets, anyway. If there's a discrepancy, I'll go with the building corner to indicate plumb.

March 24, 2015, 11:00 AM	#1
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	new scope...mounting? I am just curious, what is the proper ay to make sure your scope isn't canted at all with the rifle. I have always eyeballed it and have been fine, but is there a way, without tools to make sure my scope is absolutely straight(not canted)? __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 24, 2015, 11:40 AM	#4
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	okay, easy enough. I have a vice and I have levels, I just couldn't think of a way to equate that to left/right cant. I guess if the turrets are dead on, that'll work. the plumb line is a great idea too, and will probably come in handy more than I think. I may end up doing that in the long run. great idea. thanks!! I was thinking I could also just put a perfectly level target on the far wall of the vice, and then if the gun is perfectly level, viola...or am I missing something that would make that not work? __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 24, 2015, 02:10 PM	#6
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	With respect to the others, which Pahoo is DEAD CORRECT... Use as much or as little of this as you feel the need for your particular application... ---- There are a couple of steps you want to do first. The very first thing is to get a good CHEEK WELD on your stock, Then determine how much 'Rise' you need to get the optic centered with your eye. This should be NATURAL, You should be able to weld that cheek to the stock and NOT have to move your head up/down/right/left to center on the optic. If you don't have a natural cheek weld with a centered optic, then it doesn't matter what else you do, you aren't going to shoot well CONSISTENTLY. The first time you don't search around for centerline of the optic, you are going to miss, have a flier, ect. ERGONOMICS will make you a more accurate shooter, And shooting will be a lot more fun if you don't have to search for centerline every time you shoulder the rifle. ----- The second thing to do is use a base mount on the receiver that is appropriate to what you are building for. The little aluminum strips that mount on the receiver are fine for .22 rimfire, But if you are shooting anything with recoil, Or anything at long distance, You want HEAVY, LONG, ONE PIECE mount on the receiver. Heavy recoil rifles will actually get MORE ACCURATE with a solid, full length rail bolted to the top of the receiver... You are adding STIFFNESS to the receiver when you use a heavy mount rail, Less twist in the receiver, where it's cut away for the ejection port means a more accurate rifle. Find some LONG SCREWS that are the same thread as your receiver, Let them stick up. Use a plumb line (Plumb 'Bob' Weight/String) and center the BORE on the string. Then check your extended screws, make sure your screws are aligned with the plumb bob line. This will tell you if your mounting screws are in line with the barrel bore, Or offset to one side or the other. It's a 'By Sight', not perfectly scientific, but it will give you a good idea if the receiver was drilled centered at the factory. Aligning the screws with the front sight works also. If all the screws line up directly with the front sight, The holes are probably drilled inline with the bore. ---- The second step is to mount a LONG, RIGID RAIL type optic mount to the receiver. Some people bed or bond the rail to the receiver, Epoxy bedding the receiver rail to the receiver to fill any voids that might effect the accuracy later when temperature expands/contracts the receiver/mount. Now, line up the front sight/bore with the plumb line again, Dead center, Then use a 'Spirit' level side to side. The front sight Should line up directly with bore on the plumb line, And a slight adjustment (Bedding) should get your mount on the receiver dead level, centered on the bore. ----- Once the mounting/bedding process is done, Then you can mount rings. Stamp rings FRONT & REAR, Also stamp them in a way they get back on the mount rail with the front facing the muzzle. (I use one 'Dot' punch mark on the front ring, facing forward, And two dots facing forward on the rear ring) Once the rings cradles are mounted and torqued, Then it's time to HONE the rings straight with each other. Rings RARELY, IF EVER, come out of the box, go on a rail in a straight line. They are usually cocked up or down, left or right when you try and align them. Honing gets them in a STRAIGHT line for a change, So they don't put a side load (Twist) the optics tube. A bent tube is NEVER going to be accurate. PERIOD. Those rings go on the rail at all kinds of different angles, Putting a curve in the tube, even bending it 'S' shaped. Lapping those rings STRAIGHT WITH EACH OTHER is mandatory if you intend to shoot well at different distances or long range. I've had guys argue this up one side and down the other, But being a machinist, I've made gauges that have a cut out for the turrets, and when I put that gauge against the tube and slip a feeler gauge under one side or the other it's pretty graphically illustrated/demonstrated... ---- Now that mount is straight, level, square with bore, Now that the rings are aligned with each other, Drop that optic in the cradles and level the rifle on bench, Bore centered on that plumb line one more time. ---- RUN YOUR FULL RANGE OF ADJUSTMENTS ON THE OPTICS! FULLY DOWN TO FULLY UP ON ELEVATION, COUNT THE NUMBER OF TURNS, CRANK BACK DOWN HALF THE NUMBER OF TURNS IN THE ADJUSTMENT! This will set the elevation in the CENTER of the tube. Do the same with Left to Right, Again, center the VERTICLE LINE in the middle! STATING OFF WITH AN OFF CENTER RECTILE CAN SCREW YOU UP SOMETHING FIERCE! ---- Plumb line MUST align with the ELEVATION line in the optic, While the bore stays centered on the plumb line and the receiver stays level left to right. I'll say that again, The PLUMB LINE is your 'STANDARD', Everything MUST center align with that plumb line, The bore, the vertical reticle line, While the receiver stays LEVEL, LEFT TO RIGHT. ----- When you put top caps on the ring cradles, DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN! DO NOT TRY AND GET THE TOP CAP TO MEET THE CRADLE BY CRANKING DOWN ON THE SCREWS! The average 'Torque' for optics screws is somewhere between 7 INCH Pounds and 15 INCH Pounds (NOT FOOT POUNDS!) The WILL be a gap between upper and lower ring halves, This is NORMAL, and it's there to keep TENSION on the halves, allowing the screws to do their jobs correctly... ----- A little dab of SILICONE grease in the rings will help with thermal expansion issues. Dinosaur grease stinks, dries out too quickly and stains. Clear silicone grease works VERY well to fill any machining voids in the rings and allows for thermal expansion without issues. 'Tune Up' grease from the local auto parts stores is normally silicone grease, and it comes in VERY SMALL, inexpensive packages. ---- Two more bits of information, If you are mounting on an ALUMINUM RECEIVER, Then use an ALUMINUM MOUNT. If you use aluminum on steel, the two have different THERMAL expansion rates, Meaning one (The aluminum) will expand about twice as much as the steel, (and do it 3 times faster than steel) when the rifle sees temperature changes. If you are mounting a rail to a STEEL RECEIVER, THEN USE A STEEL MOUNT! Same reason, just in reverse. The second bit of information, ONE SCREW on each side of the optics tube WILL NOT hold torque on the caps! Two screws will spread the load of the cap out, and hold torque. Three screws on each side of the optics tubes is overkill, But works OK if you run the MIDDLE SCREW at slightly UNDER the torque of the end screws. The LONGER the foot print of the rings (Forward/Backwards) the better chance you have of getting the rings back on the rail correctly and not having to hone them again. Once installed, you shouldn't take the rings off the rail unless they are quite long. The longer the footprint on the mount rail, the more likely the rings will center/square up with the rail again. If you remove the rings from the rail, check your zero before betting on hitting anything... People argue this all the time, but 1/2" shift isn't uncommon with nothing more than removing rings from rail mount, even if you leave the rings on the tube... ---- PICATINNY RAIL MOUNTS FOR AR OR 'TACTICAL' RIFLES... The flat top AR is a prime example, Where the rings and base are all one piece are the most accurate... Swapping optics and keeping 'Zero' are a snap with this long, ONE PIECE mount. If there aren't any burrs or dings on the flat top Picatinny rail surfaces, The mount/ring (one piece) Should drop back on without changing zero. The extra long footprint of that particular mount will almost guarantee a repeat zero, And since the rings are one piece with the mount, the rings automatically stay in place on the mount. This particular unit is usually CNC machined in one process, so the rings usually line up without honing, Or if you do hone, it won't take as long as it will with 'Normal' rings. ----- This SHOULD get you into the 'X' ring every shot! Your zero won't shift around on you since the optics are centered over the bore, The plumb line eliminated any 'Cant' in the optic reticle, And you are now set up to take thermal expansion/contraction from ambient temps, sun, shooting, ect. ----- If this is a bolt rifle you are working on, To get that rail on the receiver level, Whittle down some small wooden match sticks to a flat tapered end and have them handy... Coat your screws with 'Mold Release' or some other kind of dry lubricant so they don't epoxy down in the holes. Not a bad idea to coat the threads in the holes either... Tape over your receiver leaving nothing but the screw holes showing, Screw down your rail LIGHTLY, Then use an 'Exacto' knife to cut out a bare patch where the mount will contact the receiver. Once the epoxy bedding material hits the rail, you have a LIMITED time to work here, Put the screws into the rail, squishing the epoxy out, Clean off excess... But leave a SLIGHT little gap between receiver and mount. Screws not 'Torqued' to full value yet... Make sure the bore/front sight is centered on your plumb line, Then use the wooden matches, or even the thickness of a piece of tape to get the mount LEVEL on the receiver when it's torqued by the screws into place. This takes a spirit level, side to side, to get the rail LEVEL with the bore centerline. Bedding this way will GUARANTEE the top of the mount rail is level with the bore, Since the match sticks or tape will move the mount to the 'Level' position. (Level is NOT centered, but you do what you can with what you have...) Clean off excess epoxy before it hardens, The tape will protect the receiver, pull it off once the epoxy is done 'Running' and it stands up on it's own. Leave the wedges in place. The epoxy will get 95% 'Hard' before you remove wedges, Epoxy ALL THE WAY HARD before you torque screws to full value... ---- Once that rail is LEVEL with the bore, Then you can shave/shim rings left/right to CENTER with the bore. This is the reason you don't usually want to dismount the rings from the rail, or the rail from the rifle once this is done... Shims can fall out, short foot print rings might not go back on the rail in exactly the same position, ect. Last edited by JeepHammer; March 24, 2015 at 02:19 PM.

March 24, 2015, 03:58 PM	#7
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	great thanks. this Is an AR with a Nikon one-piece mount. I was only concerned with getting the cant level. but all good info to have __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 25, 2015, 05:49 PM	#9
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Tricky part sometimes, is getting a "flat" on the rifle receiver capable of receiving the level (I use a small, "line level"). Always make sure the level is eyeballed as precise to 90 degrees to the barrel bore as you can get it. Some scopes don't have flat turrets capable of holding a level, so I'll level and secure the rifle in a rest, and put the vertical crosshair on the corner of a (preferably two-story) house some distance away. I also use the building corner to cross-check against the turrets, anyway. If there's a discrepancy, I'll go with the building corner to indicate plumb. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

March 24, 2015, 11:16 AM	#3
livingintx Member Join Date: January 21, 2015 Posts: 33	I use two line levels from Home Depot for $4 each - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-3...-287/100078704 I put one on a flat surface on the rifle such the top rail the scope will be mounted to. The other I put on the elevation turret. Since these levels have 6 flat surfaces you can rotate them to where it's easiest to see.

March 24, 2015, 11:41 PM	#8
coyotewsm Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2014 Posts: 242	I used the wheeler engineering professional recticle leveling system. You can get it from midway USA for 39.99. Also if you search (how to properly mount a scope) on YouTube a tutorial done by Larry potterfield will come up showing the whole scope mounting process.