Stoeger's Cougar?

[Panoply]

Hello Y'all,

I am brand new to the forum, so hello.

Up until about a week ago I had no idea Stoeger even made pistols. I was shotgun hunting and came across it.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this Cougar basically Beretta's Cougar? First, how'd they get away with doing that? Second, how does it compare to Beretta's?

I have a VERY vague understanding of the way the barrel rotates when fired. If you'd be so good as to give me the nickel tour on how that works, I'd appreciate it. I am more interested in the real world difference this system has on performance (if any). I could see it making the pistols a bit more accurate, but just how much more accurate? Does it run into any complications that a traditionally configured pistol wouldn't? Either different complications or more of the more familiar problems you might run into shooting a pistol. Any ideas on any of this, or on anything I haven't asked but should know?

I am NOT looking to buy either Cougar, but once again, honestly, I didn't know of the difference these two pistols had in relation to common pistols - never heard of this unique recoil system. Why not? Well... I was never interested in either, have a slight & unreasonable bias against Beretta and - more honesty - am not overmuch into shooting. Don't get me wrong, I have exactly 11 guns and shoot them. Not as much as I should (or would like - time is hard to come by for me), but I get out to the range at least once a month.

On the other hand, I read nothing regarding firearms and most of my friends (all but 1, now I think of it) don't like to shoot - and the one who does shoots even less than I. My father and/or brother are my main shooting buddies. Neither of them make a study of firearms and even combined have less than my 11 weapons. None of us hunt (no objection to it!!! just time, time, time - and perhaps b/c we didn't grow up hunting).

So excuse my ignorance on what may be, to y'all, common knowledge. Thanks for your input, and just for reading this.

Thanks & God Bless,
Pano

[AustinTX]

Welcome to TFL!

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this Cougar basically Beretta's Cougar? First, how'd they get away with doing that? Second, how does it compare to Beretta's?

You're correct, it is essentially a Beretta Cougar. Stoeger is a subsidiary of Beretta (more precisely, of Benelli, which in turn is owned by Beretta). When Beretta discontinued the Cougar, they shipped the tooling for the Cougar to Stoeger in Turkey, and Stoeger now produces Cougars that retail for a lot less than the $650-700 Beretta Cougars did.

These guns generally draw very positive reviews (the search function will probably turn up several). I think they're pretty easily the best value in a full-size, service pistol-caliber semi-auto today, as it's not hard to find them new for $350 or less (I've seen them as low as $325 new on Gunbroker). They do give up a little bit in finish/refinement to the old Beretta Cougars, which isn't surprising, but not in any way that appreciably affects function. Beretta seemed to hold the tolerances a bit tighter on average, and Beretta certainly put more time/effort into aesthetic final finishing (from metalwork to the finish applied), but those things cost time and money. It's no insult to the Stoeger to say it's a bit less refined than the Berettas, because the Berettas were very refined. You won't find a new service pistol more refined than the Stoeger in its price bracket. And, again, the differences in the Stoeger version in no way affect its reliability.

I have a VERY vague understanding of the way the barrel rotates when fired. If you'd be so good as to give me the nickel tour on how that works, I'd appreciate it. I am more interested in the real world difference this system has on performance (if any). I could see it making the pistols a bit more accurate, but just how much more accurate? Does it run into any complications that a traditionally configured pistol wouldn't? Either different complications or more of the more familiar problems you might run into shooting a pistol. Any ideas on any of this, or on anything I haven't asked but should know?

Rather than type out a technical explanation, I'll refer you to a couple of clear paragraphs on the functioning of the rotating barrel locking system here (start at the second paragraph following the sixth photo and read until the seventh photo).

Some people have an irrational, unfounded fear of locked-breech actions that don't involve tilting barrels, but rotating-barrel actions have been around for a long, long time (Browning himself patented a rotating-barrel design), and in the Beretta Cougar and PX4 and Stoeger Cougar they work without issue. They're very robust systems, but they're also generally a bit more expensive to produce than a tilt-barrel action. I can see how an action with barrel that moves only in a straight line might theoretically make achieving more perfectly repeatable lockup easier, but there are too many variables involved between different guns to suss out a particular effect. All I know is that my 8045 Cougar and my PX4 are both outstanding in the accuracy department. Some say that pistols with rotating barrels need extra lubrication, but I haven't found that to be the case; I think that might be holdover wisdom from older guns with these actions (like the MAB PA-15, perhaps). Before buying my PX4, I fired two PX4 rentals (in 9mm and .40) that were bone-dry and dirty as hell and had no issues in 400 total rounds between them. I've never had any issue with my own PX4 or my Cougar, either, and I don't treat them differently from any other pistol.

Felt recoil is a pretty subjective matter, but there's an argument to be made that a barrel that isn't tilting and is instead, via rotation, countering the torque generated by the bullet as it spins through the rifling will result in softer felt recoil. Comments that the PX4 is particularly soft-shooting in .40 and .45 for a polymer pistol are pretty ubiquitous on different gun forums, and I certainly find it to be the softest-shooting polymer service pistol in those calibers. My experience is that the metal-framed Cougar's greater weight dampens the recoil even more.

One area where rotating-barrel action (like the non-tilt-barrel falling block action of the 92) has a real advantage is in feed reliability. These guns will eat anything, and it's not hard to see why when you observe the angle at which the rounds enter the chamber: the feeding is virtually in-line, as seen on the PX4 below. Some people baselessly freak out about a polymer "feed ramp" on the PX4 that isn't an actual feed ramp, but is instead just a cutout that serves to make space, not to actively feed rounds. There's no extended feed ramp that the round needs to crawl up -- just a very small one integrated into the barrel (without even protruding from the barrel's cylindrical shape) is all that's needed. The Cougar works the same way.

I was never interested in either, have a slight & unreasonable bias against Beretta...

We're going to have to do something about that. I suggest the Wilson Combat/Beretta 92G Brigadier Tactical. It's a little spendy, yes, but nothing too crazy, and it's a truly terrific pistol and the best value in its price bracket, in my opinion. If you don't want to spend that much, we can find you other options that will cure you of this unfortunate affliction.

[pblanc]

I have three Cougars. Two are Beretta mini-Cougars, one an American-made DAO (D model) 9mm with a spurless hammer, the other an Italian made F model (DA/SA with slide mounted safety/decocker) chambered in .40 cal S&W.

The third Cougar is a full-sized Stoeger 8045F chambered in .45 cal auto. I do not own a PX4 Storm.

I pretty much concur with everything AustinTX said. I also own a Beretta 92FS (US made) and I have had all of the pistols detail stripped so I think I can speak to any functional differences between the Stoeger and Beretta made pistols.

Basically there are no functional differences. I do not note any appreciable differences in fit, tolerances, or build quality. The only notable differences are the name on the guns and the finish. The finish on the Stoeger gun is more of a matte Bruniton finish whereas that on the Berettas (especially the Italian made) is a more polished Bruniton finish. Not that the Stoeger looks bad in any way. But if you like a glossy pistol, you might prefer a Beretta version.

All of the Cougars have a barrel length of around 3.5 inches (the .45 cal is a bit longer at 3.7 inches). The full-sized versions have full-length grips and the minis have shortened grips. There was also an "L" compact version with a grip length sort of between the mini and the full-size. I have never seen a Cougar L in the flesh. So far, Stoeger has only produced the full-sized versions in 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 cal. I heard some buzz that they might start making the mini again, at least in 9mm, but I don't know if that info is reliable. I believe they make DAO models, at least in some calibers, but don't hold me to that. When Stoeger reintroduced the .45 cal Cougar 8045 they brought it out with a Picatinny rail. The original Stoeger Cougar 8000 (9mm) and 8040s (.40 cal) did not have an accessory rail, but the newer ones do.

There are concave machined surfaces inside the slide that the barrel slides and rotates on. There are mating lugs on the barrel and slide that keep the breech locked until the barrel has rotated sufficiently to unlock. There is a rectangular central block that fits snugly inside the frame and travels back with the barrel and slide as it cycles. The central block has a pin that fits up inside a cammed surface on the underside of the barrel and this pin interacting with the cam causes the barrel rotation.

AustinTX has outlined most of the purported pros and cons of the rotary barrel breech lock mechanism. In my humble opinion, many of the pros and cons are more theoretical than anything. The rotary barrel design precludes an "open slide" design that is common to so many Berettas. Some might see that as a good thing. The surfaces that the barrel and frame touch upon are greater in area that for a tilt barrel breech lock and there certainly is an opinion that these pistols like to be run "wet". I choose to use grease on these surfaces as well as the central block but I have never had any problem with the barrel locking up because the gun was dry. I have heard one or two comments on the net from people who claimed to experience this difficulty.

Since the barrel does not tilt downward the bore axis can be a bit less, but this difference is very slight and not significant IMO. Since the barrel remains in line there is no need for a looser fit at the barrel bushing or end of the slide which might help accuracy some. I have heard one or two people claim that the rotary barrel design tended to cause the pistol to torque off target during recoil. This was apparently the case for another failed rotary barrel auto-loader, the Colt All-American 2000 which was introduced in 1991, discontinued in 1993, and roundly disliked. All I can say is that I have never experienced this torquing effect with my pistols and there have been a lot of Cougars and PX4s sold.

As for the rotary barrel mechanism damping recoil I would say "maybe". My little Beretta mini-Cougar 8040 shoots pretty softly for the snappy .40 cal S&W round. My Stoeger Cougar 8045 shoots softer with less muzzle flip than my Springfield Armory model 1911 .45 cal ACP, and seems to be as accurate at least out to 25 yds. At 25 yds I seem to shoot my DAO Beretta Cougar 8000 9mm as accurately as I do my full-sized Beretta 92FS. So the Cougars are plenty accurate, whether it has anything to do with the breech lock mechanism or not. I do think that the design allows for a straighter feed path and I have never had a failure to feed with any of these pistols.

I absolutely agree that the Stoeger Cougar is a sensational value for anyone looking for an all-metal, hammer-fired pistol. The only drawback I really see is a somewhat more limited magazine capacity in comparison with other pistols of similar size.

[hubris]

Just to add a bit of info. In 9mm, Stoeger offers a compact model that comes with 1 ea compact and extended mags. It is SA/DA with a decocker safety. I own one and really enjoy shooting it. Mags, barrels, and springs are interchangible with the original Berettas.

[Cyanide971]

All of what was covered above!

From personal experience, the Cougar and PX4 are both excellent firearms. I had an early Stoeger 8040 Cougar F (.40) that shot slightly softer than my Beretta 96D Centurion (also. .40), and functioned flawlessly.

A few months ago I acquired a 9mm Beretta 8000 D Cougar that picked up right where my old one left off years ago concerning function and reliability for the very limited time I had it. I say very limited because I was able to find a 9mm PX4 D that cost less than I had found the Cougar for, which was subsequently sold off.

The PX4 is continuing the trend of being very accurate and reliable, regardless of what ammo I feed it, and it currently shares time with another pistol as my EDC.

You cannot go wrong with either!

[Mak One]

Nice guns.