Gonzaga University students could face expulsion for gun - Page 3

RX-79G · November 13, 2013, 05:14 AM

I really don't think that this discussion of rented apartments law necessarily applies. Can any apartment make a rule about gun ownership in the first place?

The college seems to view this dwelling as a type of dorm. Dorms have all sorts of restrictions that wouldn't be legal to impose on someone leasing an apartment. If it is legal for a college to say I can't have a girl in my room after 10pm, it is probably legal for them to remove forbidden items, like booze or guns.

So are we arguing that dorm rules are unConstitutional, or whether the college has a right to define an apartment as a dorm, or what?

This is completely aside from the question of whether it is right to restrict access to arms in any living situation. But the talk about campus cops "stealing" is a little much if this is considered an extension of the campus.

Cnon · November 13, 2013, 06:44 AM

Fox and Friends on TV just reported that, the students got their guns back; but they must keep them in non-university housing and are still on probation.

Cnon

Al Norris · November 13, 2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-79G

I really don't think that this discussion of rented apartments law necessarily applies.

Oh, but it does. Because that's exactly what this housing is. Apartments, not on University campus property. Campus Security does not patrol these off-site dwellings. There are no secure entrances. Anyone can, and in this case did, enter the premises at will.

Quote:

Gonzaga officials said the students violated school policy by having a firearm on Gonzaga property, even though the building was leased... Father of student in Gonzaga gun controversy wants record cleared | KREM.com Spokane

To further add to all of this, it now appears that the University does not actually own the property. It merely leases the property and sublets to students. That muddies things, quite a bit. Because if true, then the University can not claim that this is their private property and hence some sort of off-campus campus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-79G

The college seems to view this dwelling as a type of dorm.

Again, whether or not the University views this as a dorm, it is not. Can the University treat this property as if it is part of the campus? If this is not University property, then while they (Gonzaga) make the claim that because it is leased property, they can make the rules, the reverse is also true: That by sub-leasing to the students, the students become the controlling party in the property and can make their own rules.

The long and short of it is that the University is acting as a landlord and is bound by State landlord/tenant law. What the University might do on campus is not the question.

zxcvbob · November 13, 2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

The kids knowingly broke the rules. If somebody had simply seen them taking a cased firearm into the apartment, they could have been expelled. They snuck it in. The school decided to cut them a fair amount of slack and put them on probation.

The school knowingly broke the law -- at least one felony. It appears the DA cut them a *lot* of slack. (because laws are for little people, but I'm getting off-track)

This is a Jesuit university, perhaps they should reread Matthew 18:23-34. (the parable of the unforgiving debtor) Or perhaps they did and only partially took it to heart but it explains the probation.

**44 AMP** · November 13, 2013, 01:00 PM

According to a friend who is a little closer to the situation, the guns have been returned, and the kids have given them to their lawyer to hold on to for now.

While Gonzaga security acted outside of the normal landlord/tenant laws, this is not a normal landlord/tenant situation. Part of the agreement for living in university housing (which this is, even though it is not on campus) includes agreeing to the authority of the university to seize prohibited property. So, arguments about what landlords can, and cannot do in other situations do not apply to this one.

From what I hear, Gonzaga is receiving a snitstorm of messages about this matter, primarily from people who attend, attended, or donate funds to them, and it is nearly all complaints about how the university has, and is handling this matter. THAT is why they are "reviewing" their policy.

The kids lawyer is still fighting to get the probation removed as well.

Al Norris · November 13, 2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

While Gonzaga security acted outside of the normal landlord/tenant laws, this is not a normal landlord/tenant situation. Part of the agreement for living in university housing (which this is, even though it is not on campus) includes agreeing to the authority of the university to seize prohibited property. So, arguments about what landlords can, and cannot do in other situations do not apply to this one.

Any part or parts of a contractual agreement, which is what a lease or rental agreement is, that is in conflict of, or otherwise violates State law with its terms, is void.

RX-79G · November 13, 2013, 06:09 PM

So really, the argument is just about whether this is a dorm or apartment, and who gets to make that distinction.

Unless the argument that a dorm is also a private abode and barring guns from a dorm is also illegal.

sigcurious · November 13, 2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Any part or parts of a contractual agreement, which is what a lease or rental agreement is, that is in conflict of, or otherwise violates State law with its terms, is void.

I think the appropriate question here is, is there law governing what policies a school may set on its property(with the subquestion how is school property defined by the laws) and if so, which law takes precedent, the laws governing school policies or traditional real estate law? It would seem that if it were clearly real estate law the issue raised by rx would apply, any dorm would fall under traditional real estate law and schools would have a great deal of trouble legally enforcing their rules.

Chaz88 · November 13, 2013, 06:58 PM

A lot of gray aria can come up when it comes to colleges. In my state there are laws on the books that cover firearms at public colleges. But when it comes to the private college I attend it is a little harder. For example, it is private property and is not posted so I could CC by state law. But college rules, that I am expected to know and follow, prohibit it. If I did it and got caught they could only ask me to leave the property, by state law. But then they could expel me under college policy.

November 13, 2013, 01:00 PM	#55
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,850	According to a friend who is a little closer to the situation, the guns have been returned, and the kids have given them to their lawyer to hold on to for now. While Gonzaga security acted outside of the normal landlord/tenant laws, this is not a normal landlord/tenant situation. Part of the agreement for living in university housing (which this is, even though it is not on campus) includes agreeing to the authority of the university to seize prohibited property. So, arguments about what landlords can, and cannot do in other situations do not apply to this one. From what I hear, Gonzaga is receiving a snitstorm of messages about this matter, primarily from people who attend, attended, or donate funds to them, and it is nearly all complaints about how the university has, and is handling this matter. THAT is why they are "reviewing" their policy. The kids lawyer is still fighting to get the probation removed as well. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 13, 2013, 06:58 PM	#59
Chaz88 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2010 Posts: 1,243	A lot of gray aria can come up when it comes to colleges. In my state there are laws on the books that cover firearms at public colleges. But when it comes to the private college I attend it is a little harder. For example, it is private property and is not posted so I could CC by state law. But college rules, that I am expected to know and follow, prohibit it. If I did it and got caught they could only ask me to leave the property, by state law. But then they could expel me under college policy. __________________ Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time. No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.

November 13, 2013, 05:14 AM	#51
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	I really don't think that this discussion of rented apartments law necessarily applies. Can any apartment make a rule about gun ownership in the first place? The college seems to view this dwelling as a type of dorm. Dorms have all sorts of restrictions that wouldn't be legal to impose on someone leasing an apartment. If it is legal for a college to say I can't have a girl in my room after 10pm, it is probably legal for them to remove forbidden items, like booze or guns. So are we arguing that dorm rules are unConstitutional, or whether the college has a right to define an apartment as a dorm, or what? This is completely aside from the question of whether it is right to restrict access to arms in any living situation. But the talk about campus cops "stealing" is a little much if this is considered an extension of the campus.

November 13, 2013, 06:44 AM	#52
Cnon Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 107	Fox and Friends on TV just reported that, the students got their guns back; but they must keep them in non-university housing and are still on probation. Cnon

November 13, 2013, 06:09 PM	#57
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	So really, the argument is just about whether this is a dorm or apartment, and who gets to make that distinction. Unless the argument that a dorm is also a private abode and barring guns from a dorm is also illegal.