Old muley stag teeth

MontanaS · November 16, 2009, 10:25 PM

I don't have the age verified yet but thought you might like to take a guess

Art Eatman · November 16, 2009, 11:16 PM

Somewhere between very old and ancient. 8-1/2?

fastforty · November 17, 2009, 12:10 AM

If you put that deer down, you did him a favor. He'da had a tough time making it through the winter on bark & sticks.

trooper3385 · November 17, 2009, 12:35 AM

Aging a deer by there teeth has a lot to do with the area there from. Here in south Texas, the terrian is real sandy. Ive shot 4 1/2 yr old deer that's teeth looked like a 7 1/2 yr old because the sand wears down there teeth so quick. A game warden friend of mine told me a couple of yrs ago that if the first moller is worn down, your looking at around 5 1/2. If the second one is worn down, it's around 6 1/2. He said after that, it's just a guess. Whatever it is, you did it a favor.

Uncle Buck · November 17, 2009, 12:53 AM

Wow! We have had broken mouth ten year old cows that had better teeth than that. I can not wait to find out how old it was. Do you have a picture of the full beast?

hogdogs · November 17, 2009, 05:16 AM

Unky Buck,
Here is a link to the thread with link and pics posted on his old buck.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=384670
That jaw is showin' some worn teeth, being premature or truly old... he really wore them down.
Brent

Uncle Buck · November 17, 2009, 09:15 AM

Thanks HogDogs, that is a nice animal.

Dr. A · November 17, 2009, 04:21 PM

Thats got shearing wear, which speeds up the wearing process. Abnormal wear there! You'd have to half one of the normal teeth to find out. Interesting he was as fat as he was.

Double Naught Spy · November 17, 2009, 06:21 PM

I don't know about that being abnormal wear. That is the expected wear pattern that you would expect for a very old deer, as Art noted 8.5 - ancient in age. My guess would be 9 or over since the wear goes beyond what you see for most 8.5 year olds, but that may vary with diet. It could be that the wear seen is normal for 8.5 year olds in that area.

Dr. A · November 18, 2009, 10:12 AM

I've got enough pathology of Ungulates under my belt to know abnomal wear, and that is a shear mouth. I've done too much corrective floating and sx. All animals wear, but not to that degree. The visible root on the outside of the tooth is all you have to see with abnormal wear. If your seeing all old deer with a sheer mouth, then you have some abnormal deer. Teeth wear from the top down. If their wearing on their sides, as in the outside is here, they are getting abnormal wear. Even the teeth from back to front have very different wear angles. No doubt that is a very old deer.

A more normal 9.5 yr olds mouth>

Notice the roots are not visible from the outside.

A bunch of pointed tips on cheek teeth are indicative of a younger animal. WIth the shears, this may be difficult to determine, but I'd say the 5.5 yr animal here;

or

may show a more similar pattern to the hind cheek teeth with points.

More simply put, his bite was abnormal, and gave him abnormal wear. I totally agree about the sand speeding things up. pasture fed animals wear much faster than grain fed.

Double Naught Spy · November 18, 2009, 03:43 PM

Okay, you lost me on how it is that you were trying to explain what shear mouth is based on the examples you provided.

Quote:

A bunch of pointed tips on cheek teeth are indicative of a younger animal. WIth the shears, this may be difficult to determine, but I'd say the 5.5 yr animal here;

That is terrific. Of course, the picture identifies it as a 5 1/2 year old (and the pic apparently comes from the USGS http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/m...rteth/ages.htm )

Quote:

The visible root on the outside of the tooth is all you have to see with abnormal wear.

So you are saying that alveolar resorption indicates abnormal wear? I can see roots on both the buccal and lingual sides in the OP's image.

Quote:

If their wearing on their sides, as in the outside is here, they are getting abnormal wear. Even the teeth from back to front have very different wear angles. No doubt that is a very old deer.

Please highlight the image and show me what is wear on the outside of the teeth.

DRice.72 · November 18, 2009, 04:56 PM

I dunno, it just looks painful. I believe I'd want to be shot if I had worn my teeth that much

Dr. A · November 19, 2009, 08:52 AM

The examples I posted shows normal wear. The wear I mentioned was buccal aspect of the crown. (not the root) On a human, the tooth would be displaying the pulp chamber from the crown. We need another angle to show the extreme wear at the top aspect of the tooth. To view it from the front would show an angle of wear. The top most portioin of the crown wears the most extreme. The bottom of the crown the least.

I'm not savy enough to point that out on a computer. Particularly now with no example shown.

The original pictures are from Murray Fowlers old veterinary books (I believe) and are displayed at least 2 places on the web.

Also:

http://www.whitetails.com/index.php?...tion&Itemid=40

November 16, 2009, 10:25 PM	#1
MontanaS Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Posts: 46	Old muley stag teeth I don't have the age verified yet but thought you might like to take a guess

November 17, 2009, 12:10 AM	#3
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	If you put that deer down, you did him a favor. He'da had a tough time making it through the winter on bark & sticks. __________________ When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

November 17, 2009, 12:53 AM	#5
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Wow! We have had broken mouth ten year old cows that had better teeth than that. I can not wait to find out how old it was. Do you have a picture of the full beast? __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

November 17, 2009, 09:15 AM	#7
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Thanks HogDogs, that is a nice animal. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

November 17, 2009, 06:21 PM	#9
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I don't know about that being abnormal wear. That is the expected wear pattern that you would expect for a very old deer, as Art noted 8.5 - ancient in age. My guess would be 9 or over since the wear goes beyond what you see for most 8.5 year olds, but that may vary with diet. It could be that the wear seen is normal for 8.5 year olds in that area. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

November 16, 2009, 11:16 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Somewhere between very old and ancient. 8-1/2?

November 17, 2009, 12:35 AM	#4
trooper3385 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: South Texas Posts: 814	Aging a deer by there teeth has a lot to do with the area there from. Here in south Texas, the terrian is real sandy. Ive shot 4 1/2 yr old deer that's teeth looked like a 7 1/2 yr old because the sand wears down there teeth so quick. A game warden friend of mine told me a couple of yrs ago that if the first moller is worn down, your looking at around 5 1/2. If the second one is worn down, it's around 6 1/2. He said after that, it's just a guess. Whatever it is, you did it a favor.

November 17, 2009, 05:16 AM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Unky Buck, Here is a link to the thread with link and pics posted on his old buck. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=384670 That jaw is showin' some worn teeth, being premature or truly old... he really wore them down. Brent

November 17, 2009, 04:21 PM	#8
Dr. A Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2007 Location: Salina, KS. Posts: 215	Thats got shearing wear, which speeds up the wearing process. Abnormal wear there! You'd have to half one of the normal teeth to find out. Interesting he was as fat as he was.

November 18, 2009, 10:12 AM	#10
Dr. A Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2007 Location: Salina, KS. Posts: 215	I've got enough pathology of Ungulates under my belt to know abnomal wear, and that is a shear mouth. I've done too much corrective floating and sx. All animals wear, but not to that degree. The visible root on the outside of the tooth is all you have to see with abnormal wear. If your seeing all old deer with a sheer mouth, then you have some abnormal deer. Teeth wear from the top down. If their wearing on their sides, as in the outside is here, they are getting abnormal wear. Even the teeth from back to front have very different wear angles. No doubt that is a very old deer. A more normal 9.5 yr olds mouth> Notice the roots are not visible from the outside. A bunch of pointed tips on cheek teeth are indicative of a younger animal. WIth the shears, this may be difficult to determine, but I'd say the 5.5 yr animal here; or may show a more similar pattern to the hind cheek teeth with points. More simply put, his bite was abnormal, and gave him abnormal wear. I totally agree about the sand speeding things up. pasture fed animals wear much faster than grain fed. Last edited by Dr. A; November 18, 2009 at 10:57 AM.

November 18, 2009, 04:56 PM	#12
DRice.72 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2009 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 451	I dunno, it just looks painful. I believe I'd want to be shot if I had worn my teeth that much __________________ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright unitl you hear them speak! They should have stopped with "Congress shall make no Law...

November 19, 2009, 08:52 AM	#13
Dr. A Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2007 Location: Salina, KS. Posts: 215	The examples I posted shows normal wear. The wear I mentioned was buccal aspect of the crown. (not the root) On a human, the tooth would be displaying the pulp chamber from the crown. We need another angle to show the extreme wear at the top aspect of the tooth. To view it from the front would show an angle of wear. The top most portioin of the crown wears the most extreme. The bottom of the crown the least. I'm not savy enough to point that out on a computer. Particularly now with no example shown. The original pictures are from Murray Fowlers old veterinary books (I believe) and are displayed at least 2 places on the web. Also: http://www.whitetails.com/index.php?...tion&Itemid=40 Last edited by Dr. A; November 19, 2009 at 09:15 AM.