Full Auto Handguns

**4V50 Gary** · November 4, 1998, 09:20 AM

Doc reported in the Handguns Forum of this website that his Sig P220 went full auto. I also know of 1911s and S&W pistols going full auto. Discounting handguns which were designed as select fire weapons (i.e., Schnellfeuer Mauser, Glock M18, etc.) does anybody know of any other make/model that rock n' rolls?

[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-04-98).]

fal308 · November 4, 1998, 12:45 PM

Don't know about others but a couple of years ago one of my 1911 clones went full auto.

Plainsman · November 4, 1998, 08:06 PM

What causes them to go full auto? I.E. what breaks?

Plainsman :-)

**4V50 Gary** · November 4, 1998, 11:22 PM

Sears break, hammer (notch) breaks. Even the tip of a broken firing pins which protrudes from the firing pin hole can cause the gun to go full auto if you depress the trigger, rack the slide back and release it. Very Unsafe.

I wouldn't recommend breaking or modifying anything since firing a semi-auto pistol in the full auto mode when it wasn't designed for such is dangerous for you, bystanders, and could permanently damage the gun. Besides, the Feds will seize everything and the only compensation is free tennis lessons @ Club Fed.

**Rich Lucibella** · November 5, 1998, 09:50 AM

Since we're on the subject, is it true that a weapon that malfunctions at the range, and goes full auto, places us in a potentially criminal position vis a vis, ATF regs.

I'm talking "practically", here, not "technically".
Rich

fal308 · November 5, 1998, 10:42 AM

I think that would be a call by the agent on-site. Unless it was a totally stock factory weapon that hadn't been modified in any way I would think that yes you could be liable. I don't know if they would have much of a case though if they couldn't replicate the shooting (FA) of the weapon in question. No matter what the outcome I'm sure your whole day would be ruined by the "just some questions" game.

Rob Pincus · November 5, 1998, 11:08 AM

Everyone probably knows that you can get most MAKs to fire full auto using the "bounce" technique.
I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for using a bouncing technique or having a legitimate malfunction.
Two custom rifles I got last year came with a warning that the use of "hyper-velocity" ammo could cause full auto fire. In a case like that I guess the ATF could make a case for illegal conversion. I was pretty surprised to see the warning in print like that.

**Rich Lucibella** · November 5, 1998, 11:36 AM

Rob-
Not everyone knows the "bounce" thechnique...I don't

. As the owner of a couple, tell me the trick.
Rich

Rob Pincus · November 5, 1998, 11:59 AM

Have you ever seen someone shoot with a "hellfire 2000" or similar trigger activator?

you actually support the gun with your off hand on the forestock and pull the gun forward into your stiff trigger finger. Your trigger finger is in the trigger gaurd pointing across your body.
If youkeep your trigger finger stiff and pull forward with your off-hand with the right pressure, then the recoil will cause the weapon to "bounce" on your trigger finger, simulating full auto fire.

you can guess how accurate this is. Although, once you get good at it you can tear up pumpkins pretty good.

BE CAREFUL about focusing your attention on what your hands are doing and pointing the rifle up into the air or down at your feet!!

(please don't try this

, but if you do, don't shoot yourself, your pets, your pals...etc

**Rich Lucibella** · November 5, 1998, 12:28 PM

Got it. I should have extrapolated from the HellFire gimmick/toy. Thanks
Rich

Kodiac · November 5, 1998, 12:43 PM

Yeah, I had a range instructor at my academy who could bounce his Smith & Wesson fully auto. The guy was a little bent in the brain for doing it... but Yeah, it can be done with a hand gun as well. But since there is no fore grip - doing so would seem to me too much of a risk to even think about trying! It was a 3rd gen Smith 9MM by the way - I dont have a decoderring to tell you just what model it was...

**4V50 Gary** · November 6, 1998, 01:38 AM

Doc reported that his Sig P220 had been serviced by a gunsmith in the Houston Texas area. According to the armorer who inspect Doc's pistol, some work resulted in unintended consequences.

As a cautionary note for all LEOs out there, reliability is the most important thing you want from your firearm. Othewise, all you've got is an impact tool. You can change sights without any repercussions, but little else.

If your department has an armorer, let that individual alone work on your firearm. If yours in incompetent (in which case he shouldn't have that assignment), send it to the factory/importer for service. Duty weapons are best kept to factory specs.

**4V50 Gary** · December 4, 1998, 03:13 PM

Doc reported that Sig has elected to replace his P220. As discussed in the Handgun & Pistolcraft forum, his P220 went full auto and resultingly, the frame cracked. Kudos to Sig.

4v50 Gary

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November 4, 1998, 09:20 AM	#1
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Doc reported in the Handguns Forum of this website that his Sig P220 went full auto. I also know of 1911s and S&W pistols going full auto. Discounting handguns which were designed as select fire weapons (i.e., Schnellfeuer Mauser, Glock M18, etc.) does anybody know of any other make/model that rock n' rolls? [This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-04-98).]

November 4, 1998, 12:45 PM	#2
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Don't know about others but a couple of years ago one of my 1911 clones went full auto.

November 4, 1998, 08:06 PM	#3
Plainsman Member Join Date: October 31, 1998 Location: Grand Forks, ND, USA, NA Posts: 53	What causes them to go full auto? I.E. what breaks? Plainsman :-)

November 4, 1998, 11:22 PM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Sears break, hammer (notch) breaks. Even the tip of a broken firing pins which protrudes from the firing pin hole can cause the gun to go full auto if you depress the trigger, rack the slide back and release it. Very Unsafe. I wouldn't recommend breaking or modifying anything since firing a semi-auto pistol in the full auto mode when it wasn't designed for such is dangerous for you, bystanders, and could permanently damage the gun. Besides, the Feds will seize everything and the only compensation is free tennis lessons @ Club Fed.

November 5, 1998, 09:50 AM	#5
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Since we're on the subject, is it true that a weapon that malfunctions at the range, and goes full auto, places us in a potentially criminal position vis a vis, ATF regs. I'm talking "practically", here, not "technically". Rich

November 5, 1998, 10:42 AM	#6
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	I think that would be a call by the agent on-site. Unless it was a totally stock factory weapon that hadn't been modified in any way I would think that yes you could be liable. I don't know if they would have much of a case though if they couldn't replicate the shooting (FA) of the weapon in question. No matter what the outcome I'm sure your whole day would be ruined by the "just some questions" game.

November 5, 1998, 11:08 AM	#7
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Everyone probably knows that you can get most MAKs to fire full auto using the "bounce" technique. I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for using a bouncing technique or having a legitimate malfunction. Two custom rifles I got last year came with a warning that the use of "hyper-velocity" ammo could cause full auto fire. In a case like that I guess the ATF could make a case for illegal conversion. I was pretty surprised to see the warning in print like that.

November 5, 1998, 11:36 AM	#8
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rob- Not everyone knows the "bounce" thechnique...I don't . As the owner of a couple, tell me the trick. Rich

November 5, 1998, 11:59 AM	#9
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Have you ever seen someone shoot with a "hellfire 2000" or similar trigger activator? you actually support the gun with your off hand on the forestock and pull the gun forward into your stiff trigger finger. Your trigger finger is in the trigger gaurd pointing across your body. If youkeep your trigger finger stiff and pull forward with your off-hand with the right pressure, then the recoil will cause the weapon to "bounce" on your trigger finger, simulating full auto fire. you can guess how accurate this is. Although, once you get good at it you can tear up pumpkins pretty good. BE CAREFUL about focusing your attention on what your hands are doing and pointing the rifle up into the air or down at your feet!! (please don't try this , but if you do, don't shoot yourself, your pets, your pals...etc

November 5, 1998, 12:28 PM	#10
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Got it. I should have extrapolated from the HellFire gimmick/toy. Thanks Rich

November 5, 1998, 12:43 PM	#11
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Yeah, I had a range instructor at my academy who could bounce his Smith & Wesson fully auto. The guy was a little bent in the brain for doing it... but Yeah, it can be done with a hand gun as well. But since there is no fore grip - doing so would seem to me too much of a risk to even think about trying! It was a 3rd gen Smith 9MM by the way - I dont have a decoderring to tell you just what model it was...

November 6, 1998, 01:38 AM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Doc reported that his Sig P220 had been serviced by a gunsmith in the Houston Texas area. According to the armorer who inspect Doc's pistol, some work resulted in unintended consequences. As a cautionary note for all LEOs out there, reliability is the most important thing you want from your firearm. Othewise, all you've got is an impact tool. You can change sights without any repercussions, but little else. If your department has an armorer, let that individual alone work on your firearm. If yours in incompetent (in which case he shouldn't have that assignment), send it to the factory/importer for service. Duty weapons are best kept to factory specs.

December 4, 1998, 03:13 PM	#13
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Doc reported that Sig has elected to replace his P220. As discussed in the Handgun & Pistolcraft forum, his P220 went full auto and resultingly, the frame cracked. Kudos to Sig. 4v50 Gary