Sanity check for 38 spl fill volume

j357 · February 15, 2009, 12:20 PM

First, I am new to reloading. Thanks to everyone here for providing what I have found to be a great resource in getting started.

I am in the process of reloading my first few rounds. Along with buying and reading manuals and manufacturer’s websites for months I have been practicing for a few weeks. At this point I need some input for what is probably not an issue but it is bothering me.

I am working up loads for 38 special with 125 gn XTPs, trying both Universal and HP-38. From the new Lee manual, the new Hornady manual and the new Hodgdon annual manual, I decided on the following starting points with the constraints of the Lee auto disk pro measure somewhat dictating these:
4.9 grains of Universal from the .53 disk and
4.1 grains of HP-38 from the .40 disk.

When I charged with Universal I was somewhat surprised at how little of the case was filled. With the HP-38 I was shocked at what appears to be a less than half a case fill. I have weighed and reweighed only to determine the measures were correct and consistent.

So is it usual to have these powders fill what appears to be less than half of a 38 special case, and/or what percent of unfilled case volume should give me concern with this round?

As a side question, would it be worth while for a newbie to buy the Quickload package, as I expect this type of info would be available there?

Thanks.

**Unclenick** · February 15, 2009, 01:16 PM

Yup. 50% or so case fill is pretty normal with fast powders. They make too much pressure otherwise. Also, keep in mind that the powder space is only what is under the location the bullet base seats to, and I am talking about half that volume. The .38 Special and a lot of rounds derived from even older rounds were meant to run on black powder originally. They have a good bit of extra volume for smokeless powder, given their low pressure limits. Only if you get into loading +P and +P+ rounds for stronger modern guns will you be using slower powders that fill the case better.

If you start loading with lead bullets, IMR Trail Boss powder will fill the case a lot better. It is a low bulk powder strictly for lead bullets, though. The manufacturer claims they get pressure leaps when working up loads for jacketed bullets with it and so they don't want you to use it for that. It is also the cleanest burning powder I've ever tried.

oneounceload · February 15, 2009, 01:20 PM

it is descended from blacl powder days when the case was filled. Newer fast-burners only fill a fraction, which is why you need to VISUALLY CHECK the cases to ensure no double charges, or the results can be deadly

mkl · February 15, 2009, 01:51 PM

As long as you stay with the recommended loads in your manual, case fill volumes are of no importance in handgun loads.

There are a few exceptions in large capacity rifle loads using specific very slow burning powders, but nothing your should worry about in a 38 Special.

Just make sure all of the loads with the powder you choose fill the case to the same level -- e.g. be sure you do not have a double charge or a significant under charge.

Teuthis · February 15, 2009, 07:09 PM

Once you have your 38 Special cases charged, I think it's a good idea to run a flashlight over them and see that they are all equal. I have used Bullseye for many years and it does not fill the case much at all. So I always take a second look before I seat any bullets.

warnerwh · February 15, 2009, 07:18 PM

It's a good idea to only have one powder can on your bench at a time. Your loads do sound ok.

Hommbs · February 16, 2009, 03:03 AM

In a progressive press it's tough if not impossible to look down a case like the .38 Spl. or a light loaded .357 mag. Same goes for the 44 spl/mag. You have to stop and weigh the charges periodically to verify the charge or use a powder check die of some sort that either locks up the press on a faulty charge or gives an audible warning. Reliable and repeatable powder measures go a long way towards making the operation go according to plan.

shu · February 16, 2009, 08:03 AM

As said, the 38spl oiginated in the black powder days. With modern smokeless powders, the charge is quite small.

Indeed, the charge volume is so small that if you compare muzzle velocity between powder charge at back of cartridge (tip muzzle up before firing) and at front of cartridge (tip muzzle down before firing) there is quite a difference.

Also, the SAAMI pressure limit of 17,000 psi is low compared to more recently developed cartridges (35,000 psi for 357mag, 40s&w). When I started reloading eight yrs or so ago, I wondered that the Speer #13 book load for jacketed bullets in 38spl was a single number not a range. That is, the minimum powder charge is also the maximum charge.

With a jacketed bullet (harder to move down barrel than soft lead) and a longish barrel, the minimum charge needed to be sure the bullet is pushed out the end is also the maximum charge to avoid over pressure.

Of course with modern fire arms, there is the +P rating of 20,000 psi. Thus 38spl can in some instances be safely pushed beyond published powder charge limits.

I stick to published limits in 38spl because the only gun i load that caliber for is a J frame s&w 5 shot snubbie. Thin cylinder walls, not rated for normal diet of +P, and uncomfortable to fire with husky loads in any event.

I use 148gr lead wadcutters. Softer than jacketed and they seat full into the case, thus reducing the otherwise cavernous case volume.

-shu

Jkwas · February 16, 2009, 04:37 PM

I've only just started out loading 38spl myself, but I've been using 158gn LRN bullets over 3.6 grains of Accurate #2. It's a pussycat load and shoots rather well. It fills the case about 1/3 of the way. Burns clean and I've not had any leading.

j357 · March 6, 2009, 12:26 PM

Thanks for all of the reassuring responses and the education on the reasons for the voluminous 38 case.

The 38 special with 125 gn XTPs, over the following loads made for some good fun at the range.
4.9 grains of Universal, 5.2 grains of Universal.
4.1 grains of HP-38 from the was a little light as shot in a S&W Mod 28, almost thought they were not leaving the barrel, but the control was great.

Scorch · March 6, 2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

I was shocked at what appears to be a less than half a case fill

Besides the issues with 38 Sp being a low-pressure round, you also need room for the bullet to be inserted into the case.

February 15, 2009, 07:09 PM	#5
Teuthis Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 537	Once you have your 38 Special cases charged, I think it's a good idea to run a flashlight over them and see that they are all equal. I have used Bullseye for many years and it does not fill the case much at all. So I always take a second look before I seat any bullets. __________________ Oderint dum Metuant

February 16, 2009, 08:03 AM	#8
shu Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2000 Location: lower rio grande valley, texas Posts: 216	As said, the 38spl oiginated in the black powder days. With modern smokeless powders, the charge is quite small. Indeed, the charge volume is so small that if you compare muzzle velocity between powder charge at back of cartridge (tip muzzle up before firing) and at front of cartridge (tip muzzle down before firing) there is quite a difference. Also, the SAAMI pressure limit of 17,000 psi is low compared to more recently developed cartridges (35,000 psi for 357mag, 40s&w). When I started reloading eight yrs or so ago, I wondered that the Speer #13 book load for jacketed bullets in 38spl was a single number not a range. That is, the minimum powder charge is also the maximum charge. With a jacketed bullet (harder to move down barrel than soft lead) and a longish barrel, the minimum charge needed to be sure the bullet is pushed out the end is also the maximum charge to avoid over pressure. Of course with modern fire arms, there is the +P rating of 20,000 psi. Thus 38spl can in some instances be safely pushed beyond published powder charge limits. I stick to published limits in 38spl because the only gun i load that caliber for is a J frame s&w 5 shot snubbie. Thin cylinder walls, not rated for normal diet of +P, and uncomfortable to fire with husky loads in any event. I use 148gr lead wadcutters. Softer than jacketed and they seat full into the case, thus reducing the otherwise cavernous case volume. -shu __________________ If you would have Liberty you must accept that individual security is not the responsiblity of government. You must. - XAVIER ONASIS

February 16, 2009, 04:37 PM	#9
Jkwas Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida Posts: 1,778	I've only just started out loading 38spl myself, but I've been using 158gn LRN bullets over 3.6 grains of Accurate #2. It's a pussycat load and shoots rather well. It fills the case about 1/3 of the way. Burns clean and I've not had any leading. __________________ I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery. Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns http://jkwasblog.blogspot.com/

March 6, 2009, 12:26 PM	#10
j357 Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Liberty Twp, OH Posts: 283	thanks Thanks for all of the reassuring responses and the education on the reasons for the voluminous 38 case. The 38 special with 125 gn XTPs, over the following loads made for some good fun at the range. 4.9 grains of Universal, 5.2 grains of Universal. 4.1 grains of HP-38 from the was a little light as shot in a S&W Mod 28, almost thought they were not leaving the barrel, but the control was great.

February 15, 2009, 12:20 PM	#1
j357 Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Liberty Twp, OH Posts: 283	Sanity check for 38 spl fill volume First, I am new to reloading. Thanks to everyone here for providing what I have found to be a great resource in getting started. I am in the process of reloading my first few rounds. Along with buying and reading manuals and manufacturer’s websites for months I have been practicing for a few weeks. At this point I need some input for what is probably not an issue but it is bothering me. I am working up loads for 38 special with 125 gn XTPs, trying both Universal and HP-38. From the new Lee manual, the new Hornady manual and the new Hodgdon annual manual, I decided on the following starting points with the constraints of the Lee auto disk pro measure somewhat dictating these: 4.9 grains of Universal from the .53 disk and 4.1 grains of HP-38 from the .40 disk. When I charged with Universal I was somewhat surprised at how little of the case was filled. With the HP-38 I was shocked at what appears to be a less than half a case fill. I have weighed and reweighed only to determine the measures were correct and consistent. So is it usual to have these powders fill what appears to be less than half of a 38 special case, and/or what percent of unfilled case volume should give me concern with this round? As a side question, would it be worth while for a newbie to buy the Quickload package, as I expect this type of info would be available there? Thanks.

February 15, 2009, 01:16 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yup. 50% or so case fill is pretty normal with fast powders. They make too much pressure otherwise. Also, keep in mind that the powder space is only what is under the location the bullet base seats to, and I am talking about half that volume. The .38 Special and a lot of rounds derived from even older rounds were meant to run on black powder originally. They have a good bit of extra volume for smokeless powder, given their low pressure limits. Only if you get into loading +P and +P+ rounds for stronger modern guns will you be using slower powders that fill the case better. If you start loading with lead bullets, IMR Trail Boss powder will fill the case a lot better. It is a low bulk powder strictly for lead bullets, though. The manufacturer claims they get pressure leaps when working up loads for jacketed bullets with it and so they don't want you to use it for that. It is also the cleanest burning powder I've ever tried. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 15, 2009 at 01:28 PM.

February 15, 2009, 01:20 PM	#3
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	it is descended from blacl powder days when the case was filled. Newer fast-burners only fill a fraction, which is why you need to VISUALLY CHECK the cases to ensure no double charges, or the results can be deadly

February 15, 2009, 01:51 PM	#4
mkl Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Location: DFW area, Texas Posts: 494	As long as you stay with the recommended loads in your manual, case fill volumes are of no importance in handgun loads. There are a few exceptions in large capacity rifle loads using specific very slow burning powders, but nothing your should worry about in a 38 Special. Just make sure all of the loads with the powder you choose fill the case to the same level -- e.g. be sure you do not have a double charge or a significant under charge.

February 15, 2009, 07:18 PM	#6
warnerwh Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Posts: 329	It's a good idea to only have one powder can on your bench at a time. Your loads do sound ok.

February 16, 2009, 03:03 AM	#7
Hommbs Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Location: La Puente, California Posts: 102	In a progressive press it's tough if not impossible to look down a case like the .38 Spl. or a light loaded .357 mag. Same goes for the 44 spl/mag. You have to stop and weigh the charges periodically to verify the charge or use a powder check die of some sort that either locks up the press on a faulty charge or gives an audible warning. Reliable and repeatable powder measures go a long way towards making the operation go according to plan.