Killing Lincoln, Derringer Penetration

deerslayer303 · February 18, 2013, 10:56 AM

I watched the Documentary Killing Lincoln last night. I was in awe of the penetration they proclaimed. The depth the ball from the derringer penetrated into Lincolns skull was impressive. I would have never thought it would be as effective with such a little powder charge. Although JWB was at no more than 5 feet. And if you've seen it, What was the rifle Booth had in the woods and in the Tobacco barn? Looks like some form of Spencer? I never could figure if he shot himself with the Spencer, or the Troops shot him. And I also do not think that at that time the troops would have been that nice trying to apprehend him. After all he just killed a VERY respected Leader. Good Documentary though. I think they tried to use all the facts and Literature available.

gav1230 · February 18, 2013, 01:50 PM

I believe he was carrying a sharps carbine but it could be a spencer.

MJN77 · February 18, 2013, 03:52 PM

Booth was armed with a Spencer carbine. Also he was shot in the neck by Sergeant Boston Corbett of the 16th New York cavalry. Corbett was arrested for going against orders not to shoot.

woodnbow · February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM

Corbett was also supposedly a religious nut who castrated himself because he'd had impure thoughts...

shouldazagged · February 18, 2013, 04:26 PM

The two-hour presentation was one of the best, most detailed things on the subject that I've seen, and I've seen several. It's well worth your time to watch.

deerslayer303 · February 18, 2013, 04:55 PM

^^ yeah I thought it was Great! Although the one on Washington that came on after that, I didn't care for too much.

indy1919 · February 18, 2013, 06:39 PM

Thomas "Boston" Corbett only castrated himself to avoid the temptations of prostitutes.. And he used a pair of scissors to boot..

Corbett was offered money for the side arm he used to shoot Booth, but of course he could not sell government property and turned down several offers, But one night the side arm was stolen as he slept...

shouldazagged · February 18, 2013, 08:10 PM

"But one night the side arm was stolen as he slept..."

Funny how often that sort of thing happens...

Kind of like the "Honest, babe, I didn't buy this new highly-customized 1911! Somebody broke into my car and left it..."

l.cutler · February 19, 2013, 08:45 AM

That was one of the little errors in the show, Lincoln was actually shot from about six inches. The way I understand it, Booth waited until the laughter from a particularly funny line, pushed open the door stepped in and fired immediately. He did not stand in the back of the box waiting as depicted on the show.

North East Redneck · February 21, 2013, 05:23 PM

I'm building one of these Derringers from a Traditions kit right now. No rush, just a little sanding and fitting of parts when I feel like it. Should be ready when the weather changes. Bought a couple boxes of balls for it. Looking forward to shooting it.
I have always questioned why Booth used a single shot weapon for his venture. I find it strange with the prevalence of six shot guns at the time. Certainly it worked, but why risk having only one round?

g.willikers · February 21, 2013, 06:05 PM

Last night, on Lords of War, the tv show, they demonstrated one of these same Deringers.
(Note the correct spelling - Nag, nag).
It easily put a round through, and fractured, a large water melon.
It's not a wimpy weapon.

North East Redneck · February 21, 2013, 06:35 PM

Haven't shot mine yet as I'm building it, any idea what load the tv show used? I've seen some videos where the gun appears to be anemic compared to others of the time. Loadings were not specified.
And, yes, there is only one r in the name. Tell that to the spell checker in my phone.

Not worth the time to bother changing it back. The instructions with the kit even spell it rr.

deerslayer303 · February 21, 2013, 07:26 PM

With that short barrel, I would imagine if you put too much good ole black, you won't have much usable barrel left?? I was thinking about 10-15 grains maybe.

Slamfire · February 21, 2013, 07:26 PM

Quote:

And I also do not think that at that time the troops would have been that nice trying to apprehend him. After all he just killed a VERY respected Leader.

Many of those troops had fought in battles in a war that cost 600,000 American lives. Just weeks before, 2000 Union soldiers a day were dying around Petersburg.

I don't anyone of them would have considered Booth's life any more valuable than that of a rattlesnake.

Too bad they did not bring Booth back alive. His trial and hanging would have done the country good. For decades there were the same sort of theories, conspiracies and nuts that we have had after Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy.

brazosdave · February 21, 2013, 09:00 PM

oh, I don't know, I think you can still get a healthy charge in em. I have a colonial which ain't much longer, and I can stuff thatun pretty full!

noelf2 · February 21, 2013, 09:33 PM

Got mine as a kit when I was 16. Put way too much powder in it. Thought it was a piece of junk. Well, it kind of is, but 20 grains fffg works ok in mine.

North East Redneck · February 21, 2013, 09:54 PM

I'm not super impressed my kit gun either. But I will make it work. For $100 its a fun project. Figure 10-15 gr FFFg will work.

kwhi43 · February 22, 2013, 02:07 AM

I have had one for 40 years. I shoot 35 grs. In mine. Yes it kicks.

g.willikers · February 22, 2013, 05:40 PM

I think twenty grains is what they used on the tv show.
Lots of flame out of that short barel - oops, make that barrel with two Rs.

brazosdave · February 22, 2013, 07:15 PM

I would shoot at least 25 grains, not 10 or 15. that's wayyy too anemic!

B.L.E. · February 23, 2013, 07:17 PM

At first, I shot 25-30 grain loads and the gun seemed rather anemic. Later, I tried 10-15 grain loads and the gun actually seemed more powerful, like it needs the extra barrel length more than it needs the extra powder. If you really want to get the most out of the Philadelphia Derringer, try 10-15 grains of FFFFg instead of FFFg.

Rainbow Demon · February 23, 2013, 07:43 PM

I've read that when doctors tried to treat Lincoln one probed the wound and said the bullet had gone towards one eye while another probed the wound and said it went towards the other eye.
In Boothe's Diary he had written that he had double loaded his deringers. They've always taken this to mean that he had used a doubled powder charge, but if he instead had used two balls instead of one that would explain a twin wound track through the brain.

B.L.E. · February 23, 2013, 08:23 PM

It always seemed odd to me that those Jukar Philadelphia Derringer kits didn't have a rear sight, yet the barrel was rifled.

I wonder if the original was a smoothbore, I really don't see the point of rifling a gun like this.

A little internet research answers the question, not only was it rifled, it had a left hand twist, and it was a .44 caliber, probably shot a .433 patched roundball.

North East Redneck · February 23, 2013, 09:13 PM

BLE, that was my thinking. A charge of 25-30gr would be overkill in barrel that short. Not that I won't try it, just thought the ball would be more stable in flight with a smaller charge. Been wrong before, not afraid of being wrong again. I will play around with it and see what works in this gun.

RJay · February 23, 2013, 09:49 PM

Well, I now only have a couple of BP guns. I was always told that black powder needed a longer barrel to be able to burn all the powder. A short derringer would probably be more effective with a smaller load, say 15 or20 grains rather than 35 or 40. Most of the unburnt powder would just be blown out the front. In that era it was felt that short barrel derringers didn't need sights, they were designed to be used no farther than the length of a card table or closer. IMO , in a rush and adrenaline pumping, I'm surprised that Booth was able to hit President Lincoln at five feet. He had to be closer.

February 18, 2013, 10:56 AM	#1
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	Killing Lincoln, Derringer Penetration I watched the Documentary Killing Lincoln last night. I was in awe of the penetration they proclaimed. The depth the ball from the derringer penetrated into Lincolns skull was impressive. I would have never thought it would be as effective with such a little powder charge. Although JWB was at no more than 5 feet. And if you've seen it, What was the rifle Booth had in the woods and in the Tobacco barn? Looks like some form of Spencer? I never could figure if he shot himself with the Spencer, or the Troops shot him. And I also do not think that at that time the troops would have been that nice trying to apprehend him. After all he just killed a VERY respected Leader. Good Documentary though. I think they tried to use all the facts and Literature available. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 18, 2013, 04:26 PM	#5
shouldazagged Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2013 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 273	The two-hour presentation was one of the best, most detailed things on the subject that I've seen, and I've seen several. It's well worth your time to watch. __________________ "Don't let macho be your epitaph." ---Ed Lovette

February 18, 2013, 04:55 PM	#6
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	^^ yeah I thought it was Great! Although the one on Washington that came on after that, I didn't care for too much. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 18, 2013, 08:10 PM	#8
shouldazagged Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2013 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 273	"But one night the side arm was stolen as he slept..." Funny how often that sort of thing happens... Kind of like the "Honest, babe, I didn't buy this new highly-customized 1911! Somebody broke into my car and left it..." __________________ "Don't let macho be your epitaph." ---Ed Lovette

February 21, 2013, 05:23 PM	#10
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	I'm building one of these Derringers from a Traditions kit right now. No rush, just a little sanding and fitting of parts when I feel like it. Should be ready when the weather changes. Bought a couple boxes of balls for it. Looking forward to shooting it. I have always questioned why Booth used a single shot weapon for his venture. I find it strange with the prevalence of six shot guns at the time. Certainly it worked, but why risk having only one round? __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member Last edited by North East Redneck; February 21, 2013 at 05:33 PM.

February 18, 2013, 01:50 PM	#2
gav1230 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2013 Posts: 148	I believe he was carrying a sharps carbine but it could be a spencer.

February 18, 2013, 03:52 PM	#3
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Booth was armed with a Spencer carbine. Also he was shot in the neck by Sergeant Boston Corbett of the 16th New York cavalry. Corbett was arrested for going against orders not to shoot.

February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM	#4
woodnbow Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Posts: 190	Corbett was also supposedly a religious nut who castrated himself because he'd had impure thoughts...

February 18, 2013, 06:39 PM	#7
indy1919 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Posts: 277	Thomas "Boston" Corbett only castrated himself to avoid the temptations of prostitutes.. And he used a pair of scissors to boot.. Corbett was offered money for the side arm he used to shoot Booth, but of course he could not sell government property and turned down several offers, But one night the side arm was stolen as he slept...

February 19, 2013, 08:45 AM	#9
l.cutler Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Posts: 275	That was one of the little errors in the show, Lincoln was actually shot from about six inches. The way I understand it, Booth waited until the laughter from a particularly funny line, pushed open the door stepped in and fired immediately. He did not stand in the back of the box waiting as depicted on the show.

February 21, 2013, 06:05 PM	#11
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Last night, on Lords of War, the tv show, they demonstrated one of these same Deringers. (Note the correct spelling - Nag, nag). It easily put a round through, and fractured, a large water melon. It's not a wimpy weapon. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 21, 2013, 06:35 PM	#12
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	Haven't shot mine yet as I'm building it, any idea what load the tv show used? I've seen some videos where the gun appears to be anemic compared to others of the time. Loadings were not specified. And, yes, there is only one r in the name. Tell that to the spell checker in my phone. Not worth the time to bother changing it back. The instructions with the kit even spell it rr. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

February 21, 2013, 07:26 PM	#13
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	With that short barrel, I would imagine if you put too much good ole black, you won't have much usable barrel left?? I was thinking about 10-15 grains maybe. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 21, 2013, 09:00 PM	#15
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	oh, I don't know, I think you can still get a healthy charge in em. I have a colonial which ain't much longer, and I can stuff thatun pretty full! __________________ "I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

February 21, 2013, 09:33 PM	#16
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Got mine as a kit when I was 16. Put way too much powder in it. Thought it was a piece of junk. Well, it kind of is, but 20 grains fffg works ok in mine. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

February 21, 2013, 09:54 PM	#17
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	I'm not super impressed my kit gun either. But I will make it work. For $100 its a fun project. Figure 10-15 gr FFFg will work. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

February 22, 2013, 02:07 AM	#18
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I have had one for 40 years. I shoot 35 grs. In mine. Yes it kicks.

February 22, 2013, 05:40 PM	#19
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I think twenty grains is what they used on the tv show. Lots of flame out of that short barel - oops, make that barrel with two Rs. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 22, 2013, 07:15 PM	#20
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	I would shoot at least 25 grains, not 10 or 15. that's wayyy too anemic! __________________ "I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

February 23, 2013, 07:17 PM	#21
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	At first, I shot 25-30 grain loads and the gun seemed rather anemic. Later, I tried 10-15 grain loads and the gun actually seemed more powerful, like it needs the extra barrel length more than it needs the extra powder. If you really want to get the most out of the Philadelphia Derringer, try 10-15 grains of FFFFg instead of FFFg.

February 23, 2013, 07:43 PM	#22
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	I've read that when doctors tried to treat Lincoln one probed the wound and said the bullet had gone towards one eye while another probed the wound and said it went towards the other eye. In Boothe's Diary he had written that he had double loaded his deringers. They've always taken this to mean that he had used a doubled powder charge, but if he instead had used two balls instead of one that would explain a twin wound track through the brain.

February 23, 2013, 08:23 PM	#23
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	It always seemed odd to me that those Jukar Philadelphia Derringer kits didn't have a rear sight, yet the barrel was rifled. I wonder if the original was a smoothbore, I really don't see the point of rifling a gun like this. A little internet research answers the question, not only was it rifled, it had a left hand twist, and it was a .44 caliber, probably shot a .433 patched roundball. Last edited by B.L.E.; February 23, 2013 at 08:41 PM.

February 23, 2013, 09:13 PM	#24
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	BLE, that was my thinking. A charge of 25-30gr would be overkill in barrel that short. Not that I won't try it, just thought the ball would be more stable in flight with a smaller charge. Been wrong before, not afraid of being wrong again. I will play around with it and see what works in this gun. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

February 23, 2013, 09:49 PM	#25
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Well, I now only have a couple of BP guns. I was always told that black powder needed a longer barrel to be able to burn all the powder. A short derringer would probably be more effective with a smaller load, say 15 or20 grains rather than 35 or 40. Most of the unburnt powder would just be blown out the front. In that era it was felt that short barrel derringers didn't need sights, they were designed to be used no farther than the length of a card table or closer. IMO , in a rush and adrenaline pumping, I'm surprised that Booth was able to hit President Lincoln at five feet. He had to be closer. __________________ Ron James