Not everyone should reload. - Page 4

SL1 · February 23, 2012, 10:16 AM

I know that irritates many of the old-timers on this forum. But, I think we need to give those new posters some slack. The search functions on this and most other forums are not so great at narrowing down a list of posts based on a reasonable set of search criteria. Even when I know that I have seen a post here that I want to find again, I often get either "no matches found" or a very large number of irrelevant posts. So, I suspect that there are people asking questions here that have been aswered many times before even though they have already tried the search function here. I actually find some things on this forum better by using the Google search function of the entire Web and then looking through the results for "FLF" entries in the results.

Some day, I hope that Google and others will get back to the searches we used to use in the "old days" for databases that we used to build for private companies. Those allowed you to narrow the results in steps by using additional criteria to search only the list of results found with the previous set of criteria. Although it is supposed to be true that you could do the same thing by using boolean logic with "ands" and "ors" with all your criteria in one step, it has been my experience that the search programs were not actually accomplishing those instructions properly, and did not, in fact, return the proper results and ONLY the proper results.

So, until the programming catches-up with the need, I am willing to answer questions "one more time" for some poster who seems to really want to understand.

SL1

Ebbsnflows · February 23, 2012, 12:30 PM

Ok...now that all of the veterans have had a chance to vent...here's the perspective of a newbie reloader.

First off...I read. I read A LOT. I read books, I read manufacturers websites, I read internet forums...if it's printed, posted or published, I read it. Additionally, I'm a pretty meticulous guy in just about everything I do (both for work and hobby). So I try to do as I'm instructed for the sake of safety and self-preservation...but here's where the problem arises (that no one has addressed during the many rants of this post)...CONFLICTING information.

Everyone in this post has preached, "read, read and read some more". I agree 100%...as long as you're reading the proper information and are able to sift through fact vs fiction/opinion. Unfortunately most newbies are unable to determine which is which. Hell...even the various manufactures website and manuals offer conflicting information. What is a max load in one book is a beginning load in another. Which one is gospel? And on the various forums, what one "Reloading expert of 30 years" says completely contradicts another expert that's been reloading for so long he "taught the chinese how make gunpowder". As a newb, with very little if any real, practical experience, how are we supposed to recognize factual data? Sure we could just wing it and learn from our mistakes...but I'd rather learn from someone elses. It's cheaper AND I get to end my day with all 10 fingers and both eyes intact.

So that's why newbies ask questions (that have probably been asked a million times before). To try and help sort the information into categories (fact/fiction) I've been very fortunate...while I have not posted on here very much (I usually just read), the few posts I have made resulted in honest, sincere feedback. I realize that some questions are just silly and absolutely BEG for a smart-a$$ answer...but I would hope that all of you think back to your early days in this hobby and try remember how confusing some of this stuff is. Will much of your advice go unheeded? Maybe...or some of it just may stick in someone's cerebral cortex just long enough to help prevent them from blowing their face off.

mjm · February 23, 2012, 01:27 PM

Ebbsnflows, I do not think you fit into the category the original poster was concerned about.

I agree with you about the mass of conflicting information. I have come to the conclusion that reloading is a large set of equations with an even larger set of variables. I think the best we can do is to try to understand how/why each reloading book and information source arrived at the information they offer. How does this information relate to the exact bullet and firearm I am using? What tools can I use to understand the variables?

Without the capability to measure pressure, we are are working variables by trial and error (hopefully within published limits) to arrive at the best possible solution for our particular firearm. We can use chronos and visual examination of brass to try to understand what happens when we change a load variable.

Many people are searching for best possible accuracy and others are searching for the fastest load possible. With my firearms, those two are mutually exclusive. This introduces another variable about information from the internet. When someone offers information, do we know what was it based on? Is it being offered by someone who has developed dangerous reloading techniques? If we have or had a mentor to help us learn, does that person follow strict reloading techniques? I recently went through NRA's Reloading Instructor home validation (for existing NRA instructors). I like it. Every step is by the book and thorough. Exposure to that course will not answer all questions we face, but at least it makes sure we get all the steps right. We can safely work at those variables that make reloading and shooting fun.

William T. Watts · February 23, 2012, 01:39 PM

If you will purchase a reloading handbook I.E. Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, Speer and read cover to cover you will not only learn the ABC's which are so important but will learn a new vocabulary that will aid in understanding our hobby. If you ask a question but don't understand the response it's like an American and Frenchmen trying to converse and can't quite pull it off. Some but not all reloading manuals included a glossary to help the newcomer to help develope the vocabulary and understand new terms so you will grasp the concepts more quickly. Simply put you have to put the time in, this isn't an easy hobby, it helps to have a mechanical apptitude too. Most of the fellows you run into on this website have a number of skills. I'm a 46 year handloader, I've contracted three homes (I'm in #3) I also happen to hold an Advanced Class Amateur Radio license KB5CH, I'm a retired Master Mechanic, l also completed the Gunsmith program at TSJC 2000-2001. You have to crawl before you walk, you have to walk before you run, be patient. In this hobby you get out of it what you put in it, above all be safe, if your not sure don't do it.. William

dmazur · February 23, 2012, 04:05 PM

There was a question posted on this forum about how to get a picture of a particular cartridge that was to scale. Apparently the individual was holding his case up to the picture in the reloading manual to check for trim length.

The problem was that the pistol calibers were to scale, but the rifle calibers were not. They were reduced to fit on the page.

Several posts suggested using calipers, but this wasn't well received.

Nevertheless, I suggested using a screen capture program on a drawing I found on another site and changing scale until the printed picture matched the SAAMI dimensions.

I still don't understand why he just didn't use calipers.

Sometimes, it appears the OP just wants validation for a course of action he has already decided on. This is not a learning environment, and I believe it is generally not appreciated by those of us who are volunteering our time to try to help newcomers.

IMO, patience is required by both parties. Patience by the new guy trying to learn how to do it, (when the instructions and manuals aren't clear), and also patience by the old-timer trying to figure out just what the heck the new guy is attempting. (And trying to hold his tongue and not ask, "Why are you trying to do this?")

dunerjeff · February 23, 2012, 05:21 PM

I think some of the over and over questions can be avoided . When the same one is asked literally every week,my thought is why didn't they read the last one.Many times that very question is on the bottom of page 1 or in page 2. Those are the ones that I assume don't want to put in the effort,it's not that hard to go through 2 or 3 pages of previous threads. After that I can see posting a new one . Some answers are even in the stickies, just so the question doesn't have to be asked,but it does.

dacaur · February 23, 2012, 07:28 PM

While I too find it mildly annoying to see the same question over and over, all you have to do is hit the back button, problem solved....

We all need to keep in mind that this is a forum, a place to ask questions and learn (hopefully the poster above who wrote "this is not a learning environment" simply chose poor wording and really meant to type that this IS a learning environment). Its not a printed FAQ, where the only choice is to search down the list for your question and read the answer....

Also remember that some people are not simply lazy, they just arent all that smart... It actualy takes brain power to perform a good search.... My wife, bless her heart, isnt exactly the sharpest crayon in the box, and has LOTS of trouble searching for things on the web. She often gets frustrated and calls me over to help her find things.... Its just the way some people are, and its not going to change, so you might as well get used to clicking the back button if it annoys you.

dmazur · February 23, 2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Sometimes, it appears the OP just wants validation for a course of action he has already decided on. This is not a learning environment,...

Don't take it out of context. (

) What I meant was that, if the OP just wants confirmation of what he has already decided to do, that attitude is not a learning environment. He doesn't want to hear anything except, "Yes, you are correct."

Of course TFL is a learning environment. Finest kind. (apologies to MASH)

dacaur · February 23, 2012, 08:55 PM

I figured thats what you meant, it was just poor wording... A better way to say it might be "Sometimes, it appears the OP just wants validation for a course of action he has already decided on. This is not a learning attitude,..."

oneounceload · February 23, 2012, 09:41 PM

Reloading is NOT rocket science - it is a boring repetitive process where it is easy to make a mistake if you lose your focus on what you are doing; otherwise, it is a no-brainer as I have trained my kids at the age of 6 to reload rifle, handgun and shotshells. Don't try to over complicate things, get the proper manuals, R.T.F.M, then do it again, and you should be good to go

TXGunNut · February 23, 2012, 11:09 PM

"Posting questions that have been answered many times before."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that irritates many of the old-timers on this forum. But, I think we need to give those new posters some slack. -SL1

Agreed. I dislike questions that demonstrate a lack of effort to read manuals and such but some material just doesn't make sense to some folks for whatever reason. Some folks do better with visual instruction, others with verbal. I'm not here to try to figure that out, I just don't want folks getting hurt or guns getting damaged. You may think it's a stupid question but I can guarantee you if you'll ask it you won't be the only one to benefit from the exchange.
If you're afraid of being embarrassed PM me or someone else. If I don't know I'll find the answer or point you in the right direction, just like most other folks here.
Getting off-topic here but we're headed in a more positive direction, IMHO.

riggins_83 · February 24, 2012, 12:12 AM

Working in a gun store I've heard some scary stuff over the years... customers sanding their brass instead of using a sizing die, customers running their handgun ammo reloads at 30% over max spec, customers who think you can just "fill the case" with powder... etc etc.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 25, 2012, 08:51 AM

I see people every day that have difficulty walking, and chewing bubble gum at the same time.

I see way more people that think the do no do part of directions apply to other people. When things break they say how much of piece of junk whatever boroke is.

It is not just in the reloading world. There are people that have no concearn for safty. They think the rules are for every one else.

MR-7-45 · February 26, 2012, 10:20 PM

I started out not really wanting to read this thread, but found it interesting and read all the way through it.

One of the things we all need to realize is that the method of communicating in the forum puts us at a disadvantage and it is easy to misunderstand ones intentions or mood despite the writers writing skills. It is easy to jump to conclusions about what a poster has written.

I have been surprised at responses to what I thought were reasonable inquiries. I try, difficult as it sometimes is, to give a writer the benefit of the doubt. How one offers advice will often determine whether the recipient will be open to learning something new or clicking the back button.

I have a friend that is new to reloading. Great guy. Over dinner one night, he says that he loaded up a box of .38 specials. But said he had a heck of a time seating the bullet because of how much powder was in the casing. I almost stuck my self in the face with my fork. The next day, I had him show me what he was talking about. He read the reloading manual but didn't quite have the grasp of how to determine how big a powder charge to use for the caliber and bullet weight. I patiently showed him how to use a bullet puller and use the right charge for the bullets he was loading. He was appreciative. I am glad I was listening to what he was saying and he listened to me.

ScottRiqui · February 26, 2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Over dinner one night, he says that he loaded up a box of .38 specials. But said he had a heck of a time seating the bullet because of how much powder was in the casing.

I shudder to think what would have happened if he had gone shooting before you guys got together for dinner! I know that I can fit a quadruple charge of W231 in a .38 Special case, and even then, I'm not sure if that's a compressed load.

February 23, 2012, 10:16 AM	#76
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	"Posting questions that have been answered many times before." I know that irritates many of the old-timers on this forum. But, I think we need to give those new posters some slack. The search functions on this and most other forums are not so great at narrowing down a list of posts based on a reasonable set of search criteria. Even when I know that I have seen a post here that I want to find again, I often get either "no matches found" or a very large number of irrelevant posts. So, I suspect that there are people asking questions here that have been aswered many times before even though they have already tried the search function here. I actually find some things on this forum better by using the Google search function of the entire Web and then looking through the results for "FLF" entries in the results. Some day, I hope that Google and others will get back to the searches we used to use in the "old days" for databases that we used to build for private companies. Those allowed you to narrow the results in steps by using additional criteria to search only the list of results found with the previous set of criteria. Although it is supposed to be true that you could do the same thing by using boolean logic with "ands" and "ors" with all your criteria in one step, it has been my experience that the search programs were not actually accomplishing those instructions properly, and did not, in fact, return the proper results and ONLY the proper results. So, until the programming catches-up with the need, I am willing to answer questions "one more time" for some poster who seems to really want to understand. SL1

February 23, 2012, 04:05 PM	#80
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	There was a question posted on this forum about how to get a picture of a particular cartridge that was to scale. Apparently the individual was holding his case up to the picture in the reloading manual to check for trim length. The problem was that the pistol calibers were to scale, but the rifle calibers were not. They were reduced to fit on the page. Several posts suggested using calipers, but this wasn't well received. Nevertheless, I suggested using a screen capture program on a drawing I found on another site and changing scale until the printed picture matched the SAAMI dimensions. I still don't understand why he just didn't use calipers. Sometimes, it appears the OP just wants validation for a course of action he has already decided on. This is not a learning environment, and I believe it is generally not appreciated by those of us who are volunteering our time to try to help newcomers. IMO, patience is required by both parties. Patience by the new guy trying to learn how to do it, (when the instructions and manuals aren't clear), and also patience by the old-timer trying to figure out just what the heck the new guy is attempting. (And trying to hold his tongue and not ask, "Why are you trying to do this?") __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

February 23, 2012, 05:21 PM	#81
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	I think some of the over and over questions can be avoided . When the same one is asked literally every week,my thought is why didn't they read the last one.Many times that very question is on the bottom of page 1 or in page 2. Those are the ones that I assume don't want to put in the effort,it's not that hard to go through 2 or 3 pages of previous threads. After that I can see posting a new one . Some answers are even in the stickies, just so the question doesn't have to be asked,but it does. __________________ sent via telegram

February 23, 2012, 11:09 PM	#86
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	"Posting questions that have been answered many times before." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that irritates many of the old-timers on this forum. But, I think we need to give those new posters some slack. -SL1 Agreed. I dislike questions that demonstrate a lack of effort to read manuals and such but some material just doesn't make sense to some folks for whatever reason. Some folks do better with visual instruction, others with verbal. I'm not here to try to figure that out, I just don't want folks getting hurt or guns getting damaged. You may think it's a stupid question but I can guarantee you if you'll ask it you won't be the only one to benefit from the exchange. If you're afraid of being embarrassed PM me or someone else. If I don't know I'll find the answer or point you in the right direction, just like most other folks here. Getting off-topic here but we're headed in a more positive direction, IMHO. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

February 24, 2012, 12:12 AM	#87
riggins_83 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Wherever I may roam Posts: 1,505	Working in a gun store I've heard some scary stuff over the years... customers sanding their brass instead of using a sizing die, customers running their handgun ammo reloads at 30% over max spec, customers who think you can just "fill the case" with powder... etc etc. __________________ l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it? l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen

February 23, 2012, 12:30 PM	#77
Ebbsnflows Member Join Date: February 3, 2012 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 18	Ok...now that all of the veterans have had a chance to vent...here's the perspective of a newbie reloader. First off...I read. I read A LOT. I read books, I read manufacturers websites, I read internet forums...if it's printed, posted or published, I read it. Additionally, I'm a pretty meticulous guy in just about everything I do (both for work and hobby). So I try to do as I'm instructed for the sake of safety and self-preservation...but here's where the problem arises (that no one has addressed during the many rants of this post)...CONFLICTING information. Everyone in this post has preached, "read, read and read some more". I agree 100%...as long as you're reading the proper information and are able to sift through fact vs fiction/opinion. Unfortunately most newbies are unable to determine which is which. Hell...even the various manufactures website and manuals offer conflicting information. What is a max load in one book is a beginning load in another. Which one is gospel? And on the various forums, what one "Reloading expert of 30 years" says completely contradicts another expert that's been reloading for so long he "taught the chinese how make gunpowder". As a newb, with very little if any real, practical experience, how are we supposed to recognize factual data? Sure we could just wing it and learn from our mistakes...but I'd rather learn from someone elses. It's cheaper AND I get to end my day with all 10 fingers and both eyes intact. So that's why newbies ask questions (that have probably been asked a million times before). To try and help sort the information into categories (fact/fiction) I've been very fortunate...while I have not posted on here very much (I usually just read), the few posts I have made resulted in honest, sincere feedback. I realize that some questions are just silly and absolutely BEG for a smart-a$$ answer...but I would hope that all of you think back to your early days in this hobby and try remember how confusing some of this stuff is. Will much of your advice go unheeded? Maybe...or some of it just may stick in someone's cerebral cortex just long enough to help prevent them from blowing their face off.

February 23, 2012, 01:27 PM	#78
mjm Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Posts: 84	Ebbsnflows, I do not think you fit into the category the original poster was concerned about. I agree with you about the mass of conflicting information. I have come to the conclusion that reloading is a large set of equations with an even larger set of variables. I think the best we can do is to try to understand how/why each reloading book and information source arrived at the information they offer. How does this information relate to the exact bullet and firearm I am using? What tools can I use to understand the variables? Without the capability to measure pressure, we are are working variables by trial and error (hopefully within published limits) to arrive at the best possible solution for our particular firearm. We can use chronos and visual examination of brass to try to understand what happens when we change a load variable. Many people are searching for best possible accuracy and others are searching for the fastest load possible. With my firearms, those two are mutually exclusive. This introduces another variable about information from the internet. When someone offers information, do we know what was it based on? Is it being offered by someone who has developed dangerous reloading techniques? If we have or had a mentor to help us learn, does that person follow strict reloading techniques? I recently went through NRA's Reloading Instructor home validation (for existing NRA instructors). I like it. Every step is by the book and thorough. Exposure to that course will not answer all questions we face, but at least it makes sure we get all the steps right. We can safely work at those variables that make reloading and shooting fun.

February 23, 2012, 01:39 PM	#79
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	If you will purchase a reloading handbook I.E. Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, Speer and read cover to cover you will not only learn the ABC's which are so important but will learn a new vocabulary that will aid in understanding our hobby. If you ask a question but don't understand the response it's like an American and Frenchmen trying to converse and can't quite pull it off. Some but not all reloading manuals included a glossary to help the newcomer to help develope the vocabulary and understand new terms so you will grasp the concepts more quickly. Simply put you have to put the time in, this isn't an easy hobby, it helps to have a mechanical apptitude too. Most of the fellows you run into on this website have a number of skills. I'm a 46 year handloader, I've contracted three homes (I'm in #3) I also happen to hold an Advanced Class Amateur Radio license KB5CH, I'm a retired Master Mechanic, l also completed the Gunsmith program at TSJC 2000-2001. You have to crawl before you walk, you have to walk before you run, be patient. In this hobby you get out of it what you put in it, above all be safe, if your not sure don't do it.. William

February 23, 2012, 07:28 PM	#82
dacaur Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2010 Posts: 733	While I too find it mildly annoying to see the same question over and over, all you have to do is hit the back button, problem solved.... We all need to keep in mind that this is a forum, a place to ask questions and learn (hopefully the poster above who wrote "this is not a learning environment" simply chose poor wording and really meant to type that this IS a learning environment). Its not a printed FAQ, where the only choice is to search down the list for your question and read the answer.... Also remember that some people are not simply lazy, they just arent all that smart... It actualy takes brain power to perform a good search.... My wife, bless her heart, isnt exactly the sharpest crayon in the box, and has LOTS of trouble searching for things on the web. She often gets frustrated and calls me over to help her find things.... Its just the way some people are, and its not going to change, so you might as well get used to clicking the back button if it annoys you.

February 23, 2012, 08:55 PM	#84
dacaur Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2010 Posts: 733	I figured thats what you meant, it was just poor wording... A better way to say it might be "Sometimes, it appears the OP just wants validation for a course of action he has already decided on. This is not a learning attitude,..."

February 23, 2012, 09:41 PM	#85
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Reloading is NOT rocket science - it is a boring repetitive process where it is easy to make a mistake if you lose your focus on what you are doing; otherwise, it is a no-brainer as I have trained my kids at the age of 6 to reload rifle, handgun and shotshells. Don't try to over complicate things, get the proper manuals, *R.T.F.M*, then do it again, and you should be good to go

February 25, 2012, 08:51 AM	#88
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I see people every day that have difficulty walking, and chewing bubble gum at the same time. I see way more people that think the do no do part of directions apply to other people. When things break they say how much of piece of junk whatever boroke is. It is not just in the reloading world. There are people that have no concearn for safty. They think the rules are for every one else. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 26, 2012, 10:20 PM	#89
MR-7-45 Member Join Date: October 4, 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 70	I started out not really wanting to read this thread, but found it interesting and read all the way through it. One of the things we all need to realize is that the method of communicating in the forum puts us at a disadvantage and it is easy to misunderstand ones intentions or mood despite the writers writing skills. It is easy to jump to conclusions about what a poster has written. I have been surprised at responses to what I thought were reasonable inquiries. I try, difficult as it sometimes is, to give a writer the benefit of the doubt. How one offers advice will often determine whether the recipient will be open to learning something new or clicking the back button. I have a friend that is new to reloading. Great guy. Over dinner one night, he says that he loaded up a box of .38 specials. But said he had a heck of a time seating the bullet because of how much powder was in the casing. I almost stuck my self in the face with my fork. The next day, I had him show me what he was talking about. He read the reloading manual but didn't quite have the grasp of how to determine how big a powder charge to use for the caliber and bullet weight. I patiently showed him how to use a bullet puller and use the right charge for the bullets he was loading. He was appreciative. I am glad I was listening to what he was saying and he listened to me. __________________ MR-7-45 Life Member NRA & VFW I load my own.

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