Getting flyers question ?

[rebs]

I am shooting a S&W sport AR. I was shooting five and ten shot groups inside an inch at 100 yds. My load,is 24.0 of H335, CCI 400 primer, LC once fired brass with a Hornady 55 gr soft point bullet. Now I am getting some flyers. I reload exactly the same way and clean the AR the same way, I cannot think of anything I have changed. What could cause the flyers ?
I sure would appreciate any advice I can get or ny suggestions.

[cw308]

Most flyers happen from a clean barrel after a few foul shots it settles in. Have to ask, are all your mounts tight, top & bottom of the rifle have any play. I have a Colt HBar, I installed the rubber wedge that keeps the top & bottom sections of the rifle snug. Hope I helped in some way.

[punkinhead]

Can you expand on what you're calling a flier?

[rebs]

I shoot a five or ten shot group of under an inch but get one or two flyers that are out of the group by about a half inch.
Yes everything is tight, mounts and scope both

[Jim243]

Base on what you are telling us, I am sorry but it is YOU not the rifle or your loads.

What is happening is not that unusual. During the trigger pull something changes, your shoulder position, how much pressure you are using to pull the rile into your shoulder or where on the trigger your finger is resting or moving around on the seat you are sitting on. It doesn't have to be a lot, just enough to throw off your shot. Go through your check list in your mind before pulling the trigger to make sure everything is exactly the same and the flyers will disappear.

This is a common occurrence and one or two flyers should be expected unless you take care to do everything exactly the same time and time again.

One thing that might help is to use a match trigger assembly or one that is adjustable and set it to 2 lbs or less. You will be surprised on how much better your shooting gets and why there is no flyers now.

It get's to the point that you will be able to call the flyer even before it hits the target (when your trigger breaks, you will know if you pulled the shot.)

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim

[overthere]

Could be the bullets, Hornady sp while nice plinking projectiles are not exactly match quality bullets. Try working up a load for 69gr SMKs and they should be much more consistent, especially if you sort the bullets by base-to-ogive.

Or go with Berger 73 gr for even better consistency.

[cw308]

Do you have a parallax adjustment on your scope.

[243winxb]

Range brass? Brass should be sorted by weight, starting with new brass of the same lot and manufacture. Make groups within 3/10 gr.

[rebs]

The scope has no parallax adjustment. One problem that I found today is not getting a good cheek weld. While looking through the scope I moved my head very slightly and seen the cross hairs move on the target. I have to agree with Jim, the problem is me not the gun or the loads. I will be shooting again on Monday and will take my time for every shot to make sure everything I do is the same and see what happens.

[Unclenick]

How many rounds through the barrel? Uncalled fliers is also how a shot out barrel announces its end of life.

The scope sounds like it might be an issue. Fixed parallax scopes are usually set for 100 yards, but you seem to be describing one that doesn't behave that way. Look up its specs on line and see what they say?

[cw308]

I agree. A good Cheek weld is very important, with the same presure every time. Take your time make every shot count. Cheek weld, Parallax, trigger control, hold & breathing. Anyone of those could cause a flyer.

[rebs]

The barrel has maybe 1500 rounds through it. I had a friend shoot it at the range, he is a better shot than I am and he put 10 rounds inside an inch at 100 yds three times. So I think that confirms it is me, not the gun or scope. I must have unknowingly changed something about my way of shooting which is giving me the flyers. Now I have to figure out what I changed.
Thank you guys for all your help, I appreciate it.

[cw308]

With your AR 223 The less contact (very light hold) will probably give you the tightest group. I'm a bench rest shooter 308 cal. I'm using a light hold, Rear bag & bi-pod, shoulder just touching the rear stock, light cheek weld, thumb to the side not wrapped around grip & straight back on the trigger. Works for me.

[rebs]

That is what I use a bipod and rear bag, but I do,admit I do hold it tighter than I probably should. I was having a problem with my cheek weld and didn't realize until it,was,pointed out on here about slight eye movement causing the cross hairs to move on the target. I am working on making that part better.
You guys have been a great help, thank you all.

[Mobuck]

"Hornady sp while nice plinking projectiles are not exactly match quality bullets"
I doubt that only 1 or 2 of ten would be so affected. If bullet quality is the culprit, the groups will average larger rather than a tight cluster with 10-20% "fliers".

I vote for shooter malfunction. Hey, stuff happens and it happens to everyone now and then.

[cw308]

With more Range Time with your AR you'll be fine, Take your time & don't beat yourself up. Make every trip to the Range a Learning process between you & your rifle. Have Fun, Be Safe. Chris

[rebs]

Thank you to all you guys for all your help, I appreciate it.

[A pause for the COZ]

All guns have flyers its the nature of the beast.
Even if every thing in your loads were exactly the same, you would still get one out there for no reason.

I watched a real good video once that explained it and there is no way I can do it justice.

Basically your aim point is part of the target cone. Given the ballistics of the load, The harmonics of the gun barrel, Heat, And the trigger pull of the shooter.
That cone can be 4,5,6 inches.

What that means is most of the rounds would land at the POA, but a certain percentage would land some were inside the cone.

If you took a 100 shots at that target at 100 yards. You would start to see the flyers start to group. Thats the cone, and its not random. There is probably a math algorithm that can figure it out.

Most guys just work on taking out variables to make the cone as small as possible. but its still there doing its math and messing up your score.

[rebs]

I have noticed that when I seat the bullet, some seat quite a bit easier than others which require more pressure to seat. Could this cause flyers ?

[cw308]

Do you clean the inside of the necks? I have a bronze cleaning brush in my drill press, one pass through the shell works great.

[FrankenMauser]

Have you been sorting that LC brass by at least year?

Or do you just throw all "LC" into the same container and load away?

Some years are better than others, and some production runs are better than others. All are different from each other.
I sort by year. If I notice differences in the case head that indicate potentially different production runs, I'll sort accordingly. I haven't (yet) found it necessary to sort beyond that point, even for a bolt gun. (Sorting by weight, capacity, wall thickness, neck runout, neck tension, etc...)


If this were something like a .30-06 or .270 Win, I guarantee that the subject would have come up already. But, people often overlook it with military brass.
If you were shooting a .30-06, for instance, it would be a pretty obvious variable to eliminate (and potentially dangerous situation) if you were using 46 Winchester cases, 7 R-P cases, and 4 Federal cases with exactly the same load data....

[rebs]

The brass I am talking about is all FC and the same lot as far as I can tell by the head stamp.

[cw308]

FC Brass (Federal) is thicker then most, Also ADI. I use both, This brass is used with the Hornady A-Max 168 gr Match loaded ammo, averages .014 neck thickness. With a F/L sizing die, adjust your die to give you .003 from base (head) to datum with a OAL 2.800 will load & cycle fine. I checked one of their loaded rounds, powder? weighted 40.3 gr looked like IMR 4064 OAL was exactly 2.800. Again I brush out the inside of the necks clean the out side neck & shoulder with 0000 steel wool. All feel the same when seating. Runout with the F/L RCBS Standard die is .001 & better. My seater die is the Redding compitition seating die, works great. Hope I helped. PS the FC brass is thicker so reduce your load to start by 1.0 grains from listing in load book.

[Metal god]

40.3 gr looked like IMR 4064

That's one of my best loads pushing 178gr A-Max . p

[cw308]

Metal god, I'm shooting a Remington 700 My best load is IMR 4064 40.5 with Sierra 168 gr. HPBT. This weekend I'm trying the A-Max 168 with the same settings as the Sierra to see how the match up. 4064 works great for me.