newbie+unique+38spcl=??????

Eazmo · May 22, 2011, 11:17 AM

morning all,

I ran my first batch of reloaded ammo and have a question. started out with 4.7gr unique w/Rainier 125gr plated FP w/cci500 primers in standard .38 once fired brass. I loaded a run of 10 and went and shot them, they ran fine and grouped well(seemed pretty light compared to factory loads) but i noticed a few grains of what looked like unburned flakes of powder. not allot but a few.
So i loaded 10 more at 4.8gr unique and shot them with basically the same results of a few flakes unburned powder. (these still seems light)

is this normal with unique ?
do i need to up charge to stop incomplete ignition?
am i on the right track here?

feedback appreciated

TXGunNut · May 22, 2011, 11:26 AM

That is indeed normal. Unique is generally dirty at low pressures but is often quite clean @ higher pressures. I wouldn't increase the charge to shoot cleaner, I'd change to a faster powder better suited to .38 target loads. I like 231 but some of the newer powders seem to be doing better.

PawPaw · May 22, 2011, 11:47 AM

I've got exactly two .38 special loads that I can recall from memory. I've made thousands of these things over the years and trust both these loads for their intended purposes.

The first is a target load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 wadcutter bullet. It gives me 650 fps and is very accurate in ever revolver I've tried it.

The second is a plinking/general purpose load. 4.3 grains of Unique under a 158 grain semiwadcutter. This gives me 780 fps and is my standard load for the caliber. There's nothing exceptional about it, except that it is also extremely accurate, mild, easy to shoot and train grandkids with. It's got a little more punch than the wadcutter load, but is still a fairly mild load.

If I want anything heavier, I go to the .357 magnum, or increase the bore size.

jmortimer · May 22, 2011, 01:23 PM

TXgunNut is correct. I only use Unique and it needs to be loaded to the high end to perform all around including clean burning. What you are doing won't hurt anything - just more to clean.

Lost Sheep · May 22, 2011, 03:24 PM

Thanks for asking our advice.

First, let me be nit-picky for a moment. If your ammunition went "bang" every time, you were getting complete ignition. Unburnt powder is more accurately described as incomplete combustion.

Unique is widely known as a dirty powder. Partly soot and partly unburnt granules. You have to live with it. Many powders leave unburnt granules.

A few years back, Unique was reformulated into a "clean-burning" version. Imagine how filthy it was in the '70s and '80s? Personally, I don't see that much difference.

You might try backing back down to 4.3 grains and trying a magnum primer.

You might try a primer pocket uniforming tool to make sure the primer hole is uniformly large, to let more of the primer flame into the casing.

You might try stuffing a filler into the casing to keep the powder down near the primer.

Before you go to the trouble though, try this: Load your normal load of Unique, but hold the barrel vertically up before firing and bring it down to horizontal before pulling the trigger. Your powder will be all near the primer that way. See if you get less unburnt powder on that shot. Then hold the barrel vertically down before firing and bring it to horizontal before pulling the trigger. See if you get more unburnt powder. If the answers are "yes", my above recommendations might bear fruit.

(For more fun, do this over a chronograph. The velocity differences might be interesting.)

However, no matter what you do, you will probably still find a few unburnt granules. Like so many things, you can minimize, but you can't cure.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

P.S. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cleaner burning powder suitable for this loader at the power levels he is running?

m&p45acp10+1 · May 22, 2011, 03:45 PM

You might try some Trail Boss. Cost less than $18 for a can. Shoots mild loads very well, and is one of the cleanest burning powders I have ever used.

Eazmo · May 22, 2011, 04:29 PM

thanks all for your help,

i just wanted to be sure, i have a ton of Unique and my work is still very slow so I'll be using it for now. when budget allows i will look at a better powder option.

thanks again

jmortimer · May 22, 2011, 05:04 PM

Trail Boss will cost you a bundle. Unique is not really "position sensitive."

armsmaster270 · May 22, 2011, 05:43 PM

AsLost Sheep said try mag primers.

Doodlebugger45 · May 22, 2011, 07:25 PM

I understand that if that's what you got, then that's what you use. Personally though, I do think both the charge weights you tried are very light. The max listed by Alliant for your combination is 5.7 gr. The normal technique is to take that max and reduce by 10% for a starting charge. In this case, that would be around 5.1 gr. I would go to 5.1 gr and see what it looks like. Keep loading up 10 rounds at a time, increasing by 0.1 gr or so until it gets cleaner. Be really observant though once you pass 5.5 gr.

TXGunNut · May 22, 2011, 11:01 PM

Nice thing about Unique (or Universal) is that it is difficult to double-charge in 38spl or most any other cartridge it is listed for. Dirty isn't the end of the world, you're going to clean it anyway, right? When finances permit you can buy a better powder and/or purchase a pistol that works well with Unique. I like it in 9mm, suspect it will do well in 45 Colt since Universal does so well there. Seem to recall some 40S&W loads for it as well, maybe even 357Sig. It is probably the most versatile powder on your shelf but it isn't at it's best in the 38.

Eazmo · May 22, 2011, 11:20 PM

i will try working it up toward the 5gr mark. i did look at Alliant load and i also have speer,lee and Lyman books i came up with the average from all of them at 4.7gr start point that i was being very cautious on the low side with a plated bullet.
newbie trying to be extra safe.

yes will deal with the dirty for now as i have 16 pounds of Unique

Plan to try it in 9mm and 45acp also but just getting my feet wet with metallic loading on the .38's

thanks again

Eagle0711 · May 24, 2011, 01:59 AM

Excellant advice above. You could try a firmer roll crimp, this may help. As stated you don't have a problem.

Eazmo · May 24, 2011, 10:31 PM

well after 4 trips back and forth from bench to the desert I worked this up to 5.1gr Unique and also added a tiny bit more crimp and it cleaned up real nice. performance was also good. gonna run a few at this load for now and see how things go for a few hundred rounds.

thanks for the help

May 22, 2011, 11:17 AM	#1
Eazmo Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 164	newbie+unique+38spcl=?????? morning all, I ran my first batch of reloaded ammo and have a question. started out with 4.7gr unique w/Rainier 125gr plated FP w/cci500 primers in standard .38 once fired brass. I loaded a run of 10 and went and shot them, they ran fine and grouped well(seemed pretty light compared to factory loads) but i noticed a few grains of what looked like unburned flakes of powder. not allot but a few. So i loaded 10 more at 4.8gr unique and shot them with basically the same results of a few flakes unburned powder. (these still seems light) is this normal with unique ? do i need to up charge to stop incomplete ignition? am i on the right track here? feedback appreciated

May 22, 2011, 11:26 AM	#2
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	That is indeed normal. Unique is generally dirty at low pressures but is often quite clean @ higher pressures. I wouldn't increase the charge to shoot cleaner, I'd change to a faster powder better suited to .38 target loads. I like 231 but some of the newer powders seem to be doing better. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

May 22, 2011, 11:47 AM	#3
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	I've got exactly two .38 special loads that I can recall from memory. I've made thousands of these things over the years and trust both these loads for their intended purposes. The first is a target load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a 148 wadcutter bullet. It gives me 650 fps and is very accurate in ever revolver I've tried it. The second is a plinking/general purpose load. 4.3 grains of Unique under a 158 grain semiwadcutter. This gives me 780 fps and is my standard load for the caliber. There's nothing exceptional about it, except that it is also extremely accurate, mild, easy to shoot and train grandkids with. It's got a little more punch than the wadcutter load, but is still a fairly mild load. If I want anything heavier, I go to the .357 magnum, or increase the bore size. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

May 22, 2011, 03:24 PM	#5
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Many powders burn incompletely Thanks for asking our advice. First, let me be nit-picky for a moment. If your ammunition went "bang" every time, you were getting complete ignition. Unburnt powder is more accurately described as incomplete combustion. Unique is widely known as a dirty powder. Partly soot and partly unburnt granules. You have to live with it. Many powders leave unburnt granules. A few years back, Unique was reformulated into a "clean-burning" version. Imagine how filthy it was in the '70s and '80s? Personally, I don't see that much difference. You might try backing back down to 4.3 grains and trying a magnum primer. You might try a primer pocket uniforming tool to make sure the primer hole is uniformly large, to let more of the primer flame into the casing. You might try stuffing a filler into the casing to keep the powder down near the primer. Before you go to the trouble though, try this: Load your normal load of Unique, but hold the barrel vertically up before firing and bring it down to horizontal before pulling the trigger. Your powder will be all near the primer that way. See if you get less unburnt powder on that shot. Then hold the barrel vertically down before firing and bring it to horizontal before pulling the trigger. See if you get more unburnt powder. If the answers are "yes", my above recommendations might bear fruit. (For more fun, do this over a chronograph. The velocity differences might be interesting.) However, no matter what you do, you will probably still find a few unburnt granules. Like so many things, you can minimize, but you can't cure. Good luck. Lost Sheep P.S. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cleaner burning powder suitable for this loader at the power levels he is running? Last edited by Lost Sheep; May 22, 2011 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Add the comment about the old Unique formula

May 22, 2011, 03:45 PM	#6
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	You might try some Trail Boss. Cost less than $18 for a can. Shoots mild loads very well, and is one of the cleanest burning powders I have ever used. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

May 22, 2011, 01:23 PM	#4
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	TXgunNut is correct. I only use Unique and it needs to be loaded to the high end to perform all around including clean burning. What you are doing won't hurt anything - just more to clean.

May 22, 2011, 04:29 PM	#7
Eazmo Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 164	thanks all for your help, i just wanted to be sure, i have a ton of Unique and my work is still very slow so I'll be using it for now. when budget allows i will look at a better powder option. thanks again

May 22, 2011, 05:04 PM	#8
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Trail Boss will cost you a bundle. Unique is not really "position sensitive."

May 22, 2011, 05:43 PM	#9
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	AsLost Sheep said try mag primers. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

May 22, 2011, 07:25 PM	#10
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	I understand that if that's what you got, then that's what you use. Personally though, I do think both the charge weights you tried are very light. The max listed by Alliant for your combination is 5.7 gr. The normal technique is to take that max and reduce by 10% for a starting charge. In this case, that would be around 5.1 gr. I would go to 5.1 gr and see what it looks like. Keep loading up 10 rounds at a time, increasing by 0.1 gr or so until it gets cleaner. Be really observant though once you pass 5.5 gr.

May 22, 2011, 11:01 PM	#11
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Nice thing about Unique (or Universal) is that it is difficult to double-charge in 38spl or most any other cartridge it is listed for. Dirty isn't the end of the world, you're going to clean it anyway, right? When finances permit you can buy a better powder and/or purchase a pistol that works well with Unique. I like it in 9mm, suspect it will do well in 45 Colt since Universal does so well there. Seem to recall some 40S&W loads for it as well, maybe even 357Sig. It is probably the most versatile powder on your shelf but it isn't at it's best in the 38. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

May 22, 2011, 11:20 PM	#12
Eazmo Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 164	i will try working it up toward the 5gr mark. i did look at Alliant load and i also have speer,lee and Lyman books i came up with the average from all of them at 4.7gr start point that i was being very cautious on the low side with a plated bullet. newbie trying to be extra safe. yes will deal with the dirty for now as i have 16 pounds of Unique Plan to try it in 9mm and 45acp also but just getting my feet wet with metallic loading on the .38's thanks again

May 24, 2011, 01:59 AM	#13
Eagle0711 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 782	Excellant advice above. You could try a firmer roll crimp, this may help. As stated you don't have a problem.

May 24, 2011, 10:31 PM	#14
Eazmo Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 164	well after 4 trips back and forth from bench to the desert I worked this up to 5.1gr Unique and also added a tiny bit more crimp and it cleaned up real nice. performance was also good. gonna run a few at this load for now and see how things go for a few hundred rounds. thanks for the help