first and LAST Lee dies - Page 3

Hawg · May 24, 2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

I can't believe this is still raging on just because I got a bad die, If I were flat out BRAND loyal I would never have even bought anything else!! Truth is the that this was the first one I've tried (because I wanted to see if I like them to switch maybe?)and that alone is what is ******* me off. As far as saying it is something I'm doing wrong how come I've not had this issue before and even when I just ran a 30-06 through my RCBS .280 die and it necked down without any hint of stickiness. It is plane and simple that some people just CAN"T let there ego believe it is the die END OF STORY

It's not because you got a bad die, it's because you're on a roll about how bad Lee dies are and you'll never ever buy another one just because you got a bad one. Like RCBS can do no wrong.

wncchester · May 24, 2011, 01:00 PM

"I don’t mean to knock LEE, but why is there such a passionate defense even when they are clearly in the wrong?"

Shootist, I think you misunderstand what we're saying. Basically, it seems to come down to fairness vs. intellectual dishonesty. Saying I don't like something or I will never buy something again is an obvious attempt to turn others to my opinion, otherwise I would not say it at all. Starting a thread to publish my unsolicited 'opinon' suggests I may qualify as a worthy authority but that would greatly inflate my real place in the world; actually, I know I'm not all that important. Perhaps especially so when my unsolicited opinion runs counter to that of a LOT of very experienced people?

Opinons are fine, we all have them and they work for us. It's only when we start trying to convience the rest of the world that our opinon is better than their's that causes people to get their backs up.

I see no "passionate defense" of Lee here, not as such. It's more a passionate rejection that any brand can honestly be condemned simply because the user has little mechanical apptitude OR really gets an individual tool that's out of tolerance, as if that is confirmation of total ill or the end of the world as we know it. From what I read on the web (and see on this thread) there are NO makers that never put out mistakes from time to time so why be tolerant of one but slime another?

mrbro · May 24, 2011, 02:13 PM

When my son bought his first centerfire rifle he picked a caliber I did not have any dies for. Researching it on the net he decided he wanted to try a Lee set with the neck sizing die. Since all my stuff is RCBS, I was intrigued to see how it worked. Being engineers, we took the neck sizer apart to clean it and see how it worked. The concept is intriguing, using the movable fingers to size the neck against a mandrel in the neck just makes sense, and not having to use any lube is a nice added benefit.

We set the die up in my Rockchucker and proceeded to size some cases. During the bullet seating operation we noted that the tension on the bullets was inconsistent, which meant that the necks were not uniformly sized. We resorted to doing what we always do when stuff like this happens, we read the directions. Since we are not using a Lee press, we set it up as instructed and proceeded to resize per the instructions, which, IMHO, are a little hokey. IIRC the instructions were to lift the case fully into the die until it stops and apply no more than 20 pounds of force. We completed about 20 or so cases before the aluminum plug at the top of the die sheared. He returned the dies and picked up an RCBS set.

Now I'm not an RCBS fan boy, it's just that it is almost always the brand in stock when I'm shopping. I like the concept of the mandrel better than the collet dies, as I imagine that varying neck thicknesses will result in inconsistent neck tension with the collet and the mandrel should not care. I'm not new at this, I've been loading my own ammo for rifles and pistols for over 30 years, and I am willing to say that we broke the die due to operator error. That said, IMHO that aluminum plug is really a mechanical fuse that is intended to shear when too much force is applied inside the die. The amount of pressure on the plug when 20 pounds of force is applied to the handle is different from one model press to another due to press design and the setup instructions should take this into consideration.

I know there are legions of Lee fans on the net that claim to produce ammo that shoots the backhairs of flies at 400 yards with these dies. If they're doing it with non-Lee presses they either have highly calibrated phalanges or they have a set-up procedure that is not in the Lee instructions. While I'm curious about the dies, I really don't feel like taking the time to figure it all out.

wingman · May 24, 2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Being engineers, we took the neck sizer apart to clean it and see how it worked.

The question is how many engineers does it take to set up Lee collet dies.

Sorry, could not help myself had to much experience with young engineers that could write a great game but failed to understand when the work begin, but that was many years ago and hopefully times have changed in the work world.

I have two sets of lee collet dies one used in a Lee press the other set up in a Lyman turret both work great they save brass and neck tension is consistent. They do take a "feel" when setting up to get correctly, but I just find them so easy to use its difficult to understand someone having problems. I do clean and apply a heavy grease(small amount) to collet so it will glide on inside of die.

praetorian97 · May 24, 2011, 03:41 PM

Something I like about Lee is how readily available their "specialty" dies are.

Like the crimper dies and decappers.

wncchester · May 24, 2011, 08:30 PM

"IMHO that aluminum plug is really a mechanical fuse that is intended to shear when too much force is applied inside the die. The amount of pressure on the plug when 20 pounds of force is applied to the handle is different from one model press to another.."

Exactly so, for both points.

Thing is, the only 'instructions' Lee can reasonably give for that collet neck die is for their own presses, it wouldn't be possible or even helpful to make a long list of variations for others (that would keep most people from reading even the short instructions they do give).

Like you, I understood what the collets were supposed to do from the first and carefully experimented with my first such die in my Rock Chucker (I didn't read the instructions because I didn't have a Lee press at that time). It has a moving part so there is a definate learning curve to using that die successfully no matter what press is used or the written instructions provided.

I soon learned the collet neck die works quite well in an RC when done correctly (even with the much dreaded "cam-over"!

) Now, many years later and with more than a half dozen collets in my gear box, I've never stripped a die top out and my accuracy is quite good, at least better and more consistant than I've ever obtained with any of my conventional neck dies. And, with my contricity gage, I can prove the run-out is less.

Yes, I too feel differences in seating pressure when using the collet dies... same as I do with any other sizer, FL or neck! And that's even after I lightly turn the necks to help uniform the thickness for better concentricity.

I can't prove it but I suspect much of the perceived seating effort difference comes from small variations in the brass alloy OR the numbers of times it's been work hardened by firing and reloading. I used to worry - a little - about that but I've also come to suspect the case walls and necks are often slammed hard against the chamber walls even before the bullets fully exit the neck ; if so, grip "tension" has less effect than some believe.

May 24, 2011, 01:00 PM	#52
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"I don’t mean to knock LEE, but why is there such a passionate defense even when they are clearly in the wrong?" Shootist, I think you misunderstand what we're saying. Basically, it seems to come down to fairness vs. intellectual dishonesty. Saying I don't like something or I will never buy something again is an obvious attempt to turn others to my opinion, otherwise I would not say it at all. Starting a thread to publish my unsolicited 'opinon' suggests I may qualify as a worthy authority but that would greatly inflate my real place in the world; actually, I know I'm not all that important. Perhaps especially so when my unsolicited opinion runs counter to that of a LOT of very experienced people? Opinons are fine, we all have them and they work for us. It's only when we start trying to convience the rest of the world that our opinon is better than their's that causes people to get their backs up. I see no "passionate defense" of Lee here, not as such. It's more a passionate rejection that any brand can honestly be condemned simply because the user has little mechanical apptitude OR really gets an individual tool that's out of tolerance, as if that is confirmation of total ill or the end of the world as we know it. From what I read on the web (and see on this thread) there are NO makers that never put out mistakes from time to time so why be tolerant of one but slime another? Last edited by wncchester; May 24, 2011 at 01:07 PM.

May 24, 2011, 08:30 PM	#56
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"IMHO that aluminum plug is really a mechanical fuse that is intended to shear when too much force is applied inside the die. The amount of pressure on the plug when 20 pounds of force is applied to the handle is different from one model press to another.." Exactly so, for both points. Thing is, the only 'instructions' Lee can reasonably give for that collet neck die is for their own presses, it wouldn't be possible or even helpful to make a long list of variations for others (that would keep most people from reading even the short instructions they do give). Like you, I understood what the collets were supposed to do from the first and carefully experimented with my first such die in my Rock Chucker (I didn't read the instructions because I didn't have a Lee press at that time). It has a moving part so there is a definate learning curve to using that die successfully no matter what press is used or the written instructions provided. I soon learned the collet neck die works quite well in an RC when done correctly (even with the much dreaded "cam-over"! ) Now, many years later and with more than a half dozen collets in my gear box, I've never stripped a die top out and my accuracy is quite good, at least better and more consistant than I've ever obtained with any of my conventional neck dies. And, with my contricity gage, I can prove the run-out is less. Yes, I too feel differences in seating pressure when using the collet dies... same as I do with any other sizer, FL or neck! And that's even after I lightly turn the necks to help uniform the thickness for better concentricity. I can't prove it but I suspect much of the perceived seating effort difference comes from small variations in the brass alloy OR the numbers of times it's been work hardened by firing and reloading. I used to worry - a little - about that but I've also come to suspect the case walls and necks are often slammed hard against the chamber walls even before the bullets fully exit the neck ; if so, grip "tension" has less effect than some believe. Last edited by wncchester; May 25, 2011 at 08:48 AM.

May 24, 2011, 02:13 PM	#53
mrbro member Join Date: September 14, 2008 Posts: 195	When my son bought his first centerfire rifle he picked a caliber I did not have any dies for. Researching it on the net he decided he wanted to try a Lee set with the neck sizing die. Since all my stuff is RCBS, I was intrigued to see how it worked. Being engineers, we took the neck sizer apart to clean it and see how it worked. The concept is intriguing, using the movable fingers to size the neck against a mandrel in the neck just makes sense, and not having to use any lube is a nice added benefit. We set the die up in my Rockchucker and proceeded to size some cases. During the bullet seating operation we noted that the tension on the bullets was inconsistent, which meant that the necks were not uniformly sized. We resorted to doing what we always do when stuff like this happens, we read the directions. Since we are not using a Lee press, we set it up as instructed and proceeded to resize per the instructions, which, IMHO, are a little hokey. IIRC the instructions were to lift the case fully into the die until it stops and apply no more than 20 pounds of force. We completed about 20 or so cases before the aluminum plug at the top of the die sheared. He returned the dies and picked up an RCBS set. Now I'm not an RCBS fan boy, it's just that it is almost always the brand in stock when I'm shopping. I like the concept of the mandrel better than the collet dies, as I imagine that varying neck thicknesses will result in inconsistent neck tension with the collet and the mandrel should not care. I'm not new at this, I've been loading my own ammo for rifles and pistols for over 30 years, and I am willing to say that we broke the die due to operator error. That said, IMHO that aluminum plug is really a mechanical fuse that is intended to shear when too much force is applied inside the die. The amount of pressure on the plug when 20 pounds of force is applied to the handle is different from one model press to another due to press design and the setup instructions should take this into consideration. I know there are legions of Lee fans on the net that claim to produce ammo that shoots the backhairs of flies at 400 yards with these dies. If they're doing it with non-Lee presses they either have highly calibrated phalanges or they have a set-up procedure that is not in the Lee instructions. While I'm curious about the dies, I really don't feel like taking the time to figure it all out.

May 24, 2011, 03:41 PM	#55
praetorian97 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2011 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 455	Something I like about Lee is how readily available their "specialty" dies are. Like the crimper dies and decappers.