1st CCW situation - Page 2

clam · May 30, 2008, 07:10 PM

Thanks for all the good viewpoints. I am mainly concerned with what DA would do with a case where an armed man shot an unarmed (?) man in his car.

I must address the multiple comments "if your not willing to pull the trigger, you shouldn't carry".

I agree, however, being military, several years ago, I pulled the trigger a lot. It was legal. I have no moral reservations about taking a life if necessary. I do if it is unnecessary.

The scenerio went down as:
1. wrong turn into "riot" area
2. drew pistol, just in case
3. man jumped in car.

I think "GVF" hit the nail on the head with the appropriate time comments.

I know a friend who shot a known murderer/rapist in his house, and the liberal DA tried hard to try him for manslaughter. We all cringe and cry foul, but I think you better be correct in the decision.

Thanks again for all the post.

clam · May 30, 2008, 07:12 PM

BTW, can someone point me to a good resource, or explain what exactly is Castle Doctrine?

Is it the same in all states that have the "castle doctrine"? I move around a LOT (7 times in 8 years), and I have looked at the quick reference gun books, and they list states that have or don't have the castle doctrine. I know TX is WAY different in their laws that say GA or FL.

wayneinFL · May 30, 2008, 07:50 PM

Personally, I think you would have been justified to shoot. You were the passenger. How could you safely retreat? The best way to retreat is to speed away in the car, and you were in no position to do that. So you jump out of the car and lose your best means of retreat? Doesn't make sense.

And there had to be some reason you felt he was a threat. Even if he hadn't pulled a weapon, did he allude to one somehow? And having your sidearm out possibly prevented him from pulling his. I'd like to point put that in such close quarters, he could have had a weapon if he had taken yours, even if he didn't bring one himself.

The law isn't black and white. There is a certain point at which there is no right or wrong answer. At this point you would have to look to case law, and at convincing a jury to see it your way. If I were on a jury I wouldn't convict you. However, this starts to turn into a game of "Who's got the best lawyer, the most money and lots of luck?"

soccergod04 · May 31, 2008, 04:36 AM

A new point to make. Why, if you knew you were in a seedy situation was he able to simple 'jump in' your car. You should have had the windows up and doors locked. You have to change your level of awareness to suit the situation around you as it evolves.

KCabbage · May 31, 2008, 07:46 AM

When I asked what happened, I meant, did he open a door and sit in the car or open and lean in? You keep saying he jumped in. Did he "jump" in through your window?
Just curious
Maybe its time to pack some mace.
Take care

MickGoBragh · May 31, 2008, 11:20 AM

I just took a CCW course and the guy was a retired gunners mate in the navy and retired sheriff of 20 years and went through most possible scenarios for "when to draw". Although most states don't require you go to one of these classes to get your CCP, I HIGHLY advise you to go. There is a lot of methods and rules to be understood in your state. I'm from Va where its an open carry state (I could legally walk around with a pistol strapped in plain view and its legal). In Texas you can kill anyone on your property regardless. And for the most part in Florida you can shoot anyone who pretty much looks at you wrong. LOL

When it comes to drawing in that situation, you have to use one common rule. Flight, Fight, or Fire. If you are walking down the street and an old man is 20 yds away with a knife and you are a 23 year old football player, then you are obviously not in imminent danger. Having said that if you were a 115 girl walking down the street at night and 2 guys at 230 lbs each, grabbed you into an alley, you would have every right to blow them away. Also drawing at the wrong time could bring brandishing a firearm charges so be careful. Enjoy

threegun · May 31, 2008, 12:20 PM

I'm going to Monday morning quarterback this. A you should have rolled your windows up immediately. Turned the car around immediately. Since you didn't you now have these concerns about your actions. You did great in that you escaped without injury and without having to shoot.

I would have shot only because I have decided to take my chances in court before taking a beating. This guy was trying to rob you and threatening to kill you.

Windows up so he had to break it.....then bang

Dean C · June 1, 2008, 09:31 AM

Been sittin' back on this one for awhile.
Guess I got ta' say my BS meter went up on this a bit.
Sounds to me like you might have been lookin' for a bit of action and got a bit more than expected. Oh ya', there might have been a bit of truth streatchin' here too.
dean

twhidd · June 1, 2008, 10:05 AM

"Castle Doctrine" or "Stand your ground law" Whatever you call it. Georgia has such a law. It was passed last year and Governor Perdue signed it. It removes the duty to retreat, and to provide that such person has a right to meet force with force. That includes deadly force. And the person who uses deadly force shall be immune from criminal prosecution. I was senate bill 396

Dusty Rivers · June 1, 2008, 11:42 AM

Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray to be in the glove box next to your gun. Gun in one hand, pepper spray the attacker right in the eye. In this case you had the time to use a less than lethal force defense, along with driving away. pepper spray is not always the choice, but it does give you an alternative option.

I live in Texas also.

I don't think we want to give the world a wrong impression of us- and the use of deadly force. we have good CCW laws that allow us to protect ourselves. Sometime we actually think before we shoot

we still should be thoughtful and use escalation of force, and as someone else frequently says-run screaming like a little girl ( not a lady) is frequently the best first choice, even in Texas

if necessary we can and do treat our property as if it were the Alamo. We can fight when necessary, or we can buy you a beverage!

Spade Cooley · June 1, 2008, 04:50 PM

I would say that rule number one in a city like Atlanta would be to keep the windows rolled up and the doors locked. I'm from Los Angeles and we had a large number of purses stolen near LAX Airport. Women would pull up to a red light and some scuz ball would leap out from the bus stop and get the purse through the open window.

I doubt I would have shot the man but I would have made him think that I wanted to. I would love to take him for a little ride up to about 60 before he fell off. I wonder how fast he would have backed off if a warning shot went near his ear? I doubt he wanted to die and had nothing to live for. That's a bunch of bull. He just knew he could call the average whities bluff.

As I've said before on this board and many have challanged my thinking on this issue. If you do shoot in this instance, make sure you have a good story. "I drew my gun and he reached for it". It went off accidently. Who are they going to believe if you go before a jury?

gvf · June 2, 2008, 01:17 AM

Quote:

As I've said before on this board and many have challanged my thinking on this issue. If you do shoot in this instance, make sure you have a good story. "I drew my gun and he reached for it". It went off accidently. Who are they going to believe if you go before a jury?

Not you since this is now recorded publicly and electronically.

ImDisaster · June 2, 2008, 07:06 AM

I'm trying to understand your situation. You were in the passenger seat and the guy jumped into the passenger seat? He fell out when you sped away? Do you mean he leaned in through the window.

I have to agree with others that say they would have had the windows up and the doors locked in this scenario.

As far as drawing my weapon I will only do that when the situation has escalated to the point where I expect harm. Once someone is on top you, and you've drawn your weapon, but not used it, you have increased the chance that they could disarm you and use it on you.

I'm not saying I would have shot someone who was leaning in the window and asking for my money...especially someone who wasn't brandishing any kind of weapon. Speeding off, which was obviously possible was the best choice.

threegun · June 2, 2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

I'm trying to understand your situation. You were in the passenger seat and the guy jumped into the passenger seat? He fell out when you sped away? Do you mean he leaned in through the window.

I would like to hear a better explanation myself.

Moe Howard · June 2, 2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray to be in the glove box next to your gun. Gun in one hand, pepper spray the attacker right in the eye. In this case you had the time to use a less than lethal force defense, along with driving away. pepper spray is not always the choice, but it does give you an alternative option.

Spraying pepper spray inside your car

Not really enough details, but going on what we have in the OP, my windows would have already been up when I noticed I was in a bad neighborhood. The OP was able to drive away and all ended well enough but, if that was the case why was a guy able to get in the window in the first place. No better starting place than being aware of your surroundings and reacting appropriately. However if you find yourself in that bad situation and since you can never tell if someone has a concealed weapon or not, if some guy caught me off guard and was in my car window demanding money and threatening me, and I stuck my gun in his chest the words "go ahead and do it" would never have made it out of his mouth, it would have already been done. I do not endorse vigilantism, but if someone is upon you threatening you with money or you life, that IS the appropriate time to defend yourself. I am not sure what some guys are waiting on. I guess some people have the mentality they need to be badly injured before defending themselves, or possibly they are more afraid of their states laws than of the BG, which is just sad and thank God I live in Texas.
I was not there, and in an internet post you can never give all the details and since I was not there I don't want to come across as, "this is exactly what I would have done" because I don't know that, it wasn't me. I guess I just have the mentality that if someone is upon me threatening me with my money or my life, that is not someone I will trust to NOT harm me even if he gets what he wants. I refuse to allow some BG to have that kind of decision to make over me. That is not to say it could not happen, the scenarios, are endless, but I refuse to allow my son to grow up without me because I handed the decision of, weather I live or die over to some scumbag.

Spade Cooley · June 2, 2008, 10:49 AM

And then there are the people who think the poor soul was depressed and had nothing to live for, that he was still bemoaning the fact that his ancestors were slaves, that he was a victim of descrimination, has nothing to live for, etc. These are the fools that become victims.

The ones who prepare tactical plans in advance are the ones who survive. They train cops to think, "What would I do if placed in this particular situation". When you have the program in your head it is very likely you will follow it.

But the guy who thinks ahead and doesn't place himself/herself in jeopardy is the one who will most likely never have to use deadly force.

TINCUP AL · June 2, 2008, 11:14 AM

Something about this story just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe it's just me.

threegun · June 2, 2008, 11:45 AM

Sounds like the typical curbside pharmacy transaction gone bad story we see on the news everyday LOL.

I'm not accusing just poking fun.

CyberSEAL · June 3, 2008, 05:58 PM

As soon as he said "I don't care, shoot me". Kudos for handing yourself well and making it out.

Heraclid · June 3, 2008, 06:52 PM

Weird, I was just watching an episode of Cops and two guys told the cops to just shoot them in one episode.

I agree with those calling BS on this one, though...

Dusty Rivers · June 3, 2008, 08:59 PM

I never said you should peepper spray inside your car:barf:

Moe Howard · June 3, 2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

don't miss quote me
I never said you should peepper spray inside your car

Quote:

Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray

Incident took place inside a car.

oneSoneK · June 3, 2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

I'd have shot him. My "Do Not Cross" line in that situation is my car. You touch it (with violence) and I have a reasonable expectation that my life is in danger, or you are trying to steal my property - either is reasonable use of deadly force here in Texas. You threatened him, but didn't pull the trigger. You have to ask yourself if you have the inner fortitude to pull the trigger if it ever comes to that. From that scenario, it appears that you don't. If you don't, you really have no reason to carry a gun.

+1 Gotta love Texas...if he was inside or trying to get inside my truck...I would have shot.

+1 I agree "DOA" if your willing to jump into someones car while ther in it then you must be prepared to do violence. My wife and son are most likely gonna be with me and if not for my self i would have shot just to protect them. I was once told that " A gun is not an intimidation factor, Never NEVER draw your weapon unless you intend to shoot, a gun has no place in a fist fight." In texas we can do that though im not sure about any other states.

AdamSean · June 4, 2008, 03:46 AM

I have been in similar situations twice. Each time, I did NOT shoot. It all happened so fast, but later examination caused me to realize the proper time to pull the trigger. The time to shoot is when you are left with no other option. If the guy had disabled your vehicle, cornered you, aimed a gun at you and left you no means of escape or alternatives, and you felt he would really harm you, then you have no other option than to shoot. And you can defend yourself in court and be within your rights.

Nnobby45 · June 4, 2008, 04:17 AM

Quote:

What is the appropriate time to pull the trigger?

I've never had to shoot in SD, and can't claim to be an expert, but it seems like anyone who ever had to pull the trigger made that decision on their own.

In my state, the same rules apply to a car as for your home--at least where a criminal attack like the attempted robbery you described is concerned.

Of course, all his buddies would have testified that he just wanted a ride and meant no harm.

I wonder how many of these "go ahead and shoot me" guys would feel that way about a .40 S&W gender alteration and testosterone adjustment?

May 31, 2008, 11:20 AM	#31
MickGoBragh Junior Member Join Date: May 27, 2008 Location: Hampton, Virginia Posts: 6	The right time to shoot I just took a CCW course and the guy was a retired gunners mate in the navy and retired sheriff of 20 years and went through most possible scenarios for "when to draw". Although most states don't require you go to one of these classes to get your CCP, I HIGHLY advise you to go. There is a lot of methods and rules to be understood in your state. I'm from Va where its an open carry state (I could legally walk around with a pistol strapped in plain view and its legal). In Texas you can kill anyone on your property regardless. And for the most part in Florida you can shoot anyone who pretty much looks at you wrong. LOL When it comes to drawing in that situation, you have to use one common rule. Flight, Fight, or Fire. If you are walking down the street and an old man is 20 yds away with a knife and you are a 23 year old football player, then you are obviously not in imminent danger. Having said that if you were a 115 girl walking down the street at night and 2 guys at 230 lbs each, grabbed you into an alley, you would have every right to blow them away. Also drawing at the wrong time could bring brandishing a firearm charges so be careful. Enjoy __________________ Erin Go Bragh Ireland Forever United States Air Force Veteran Currently Serving in the United States Navy

June 1, 2008, 09:31 AM	#33
Dean C Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2004 Location: Mill Creek (Just north east of Seattle) Posts: 343	Been sittin' back on this one for awhile. Guess I got ta' say my BS meter went up on this a bit. Sounds to me like you might have been lookin' for a bit of action and got a bit more than expected. Oh ya', there might have been a bit of truth streatchin' here too. dean __________________ Viet Nam Vet American Legion Member Former NRA Member (Still thinking about that) Pro 2A Washington (Charter Member)

June 1, 2008, 10:05 AM	#34
twhidd Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 823	castle doctrine "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand your ground law" Whatever you call it. Georgia has such a law. It was passed last year and Governor Perdue signed it. It removes the duty to retreat, and to provide that such person has a right to meet force with force. That includes deadly force. And the person who uses deadly force shall be immune from criminal prosecution. I was senate bill 396

June 1, 2008, 11:42 AM	#35
Dusty Rivers Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Posts: 235	Escalation of force Seems this was an ideal time for a can of Pepper Spray to be in the glove box next to your gun. Gun in one hand, pepper spray the attacker right in the eye. In this case you had the time to use a less than lethal force defense, along with driving away. pepper spray is not always the choice, but it does give you an alternative option. I live in Texas also. I don't think we want to give the world a wrong impression of us- and the use of deadly force. we have good CCW laws that allow us to protect ourselves. Sometime we actually think before we shoot we still should be thoughtful and use escalation of force, and as someone else frequently says-run screaming like a little girl ( not a lady) is frequently the best first choice, even in Texas if necessary we can and do treat our property as if it were the Alamo. We can fight when necessary, or we can buy you a beverage! __________________ Dusty: I'm kind of a big deal! Rob Pincus follower PDN NRA Lifetime Member, our only voice! Last edited by Dusty Rivers; June 1, 2008 at 11:47 AM. Reason: addition

June 3, 2008, 06:52 PM	#45
Heraclid Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 99	Weird, I was just watching an episode of Cops and two guys told the cops to just shoot them in one episode. I agree with those calling BS on this one, though... __________________ Beretta PX4 Storm subcompact

May 30, 2008, 07:10 PM	#26
clam Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 5	Thanks for all the good viewpoints. I am mainly concerned with what DA would do with a case where an armed man shot an unarmed (?) man in his car. I must address the multiple comments "if your not willing to pull the trigger, you shouldn't carry". I agree, however, being military, several years ago, I pulled the trigger a lot. It was legal. I have no moral reservations about taking a life if necessary. I do if it is unnecessary. The scenerio went down as: 1. wrong turn into "riot" area 2. drew pistol, just in case 3. man jumped in car. I think "GVF" hit the nail on the head with the appropriate time comments. I know a friend who shot a known murderer/rapist in his house, and the liberal DA tried hard to try him for manslaughter. We all cringe and cry foul, but I think you better be correct in the decision. Thanks again for all the post.

May 30, 2008, 07:12 PM	#27
clam Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Posts: 5	BTW, can someone point me to a good resource, or explain what exactly is Castle Doctrine? Is it the same in all states that have the "castle doctrine"? I move around a LOT (7 times in 8 years), and I have looked at the quick reference gun books, and they list states that have or don't have the castle doctrine. I know TX is WAY different in their laws that say GA or FL.

May 30, 2008, 07:50 PM	#28
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	Personally, I think you would have been justified to shoot. You were the passenger. How could you safely retreat? The best way to retreat is to speed away in the car, and you were in no position to do that. So you jump out of the car and lose your best means of retreat? Doesn't make sense. And there had to be some reason you felt he was a threat. Even if he hadn't pulled a weapon, did he allude to one somehow? And having your sidearm out possibly prevented him from pulling his. I'd like to point put that in such close quarters, he could have had a weapon if he had taken yours, even if he didn't bring one himself. The law isn't black and white. There is a certain point at which there is no right or wrong answer. At this point you would have to look to case law, and at convincing a jury to see it your way. If I were on a jury I wouldn't convict you. However, this starts to turn into a game of "Who's got the best lawyer, the most money and lots of luck?"

May 31, 2008, 04:36 AM	#29
soccergod04 Junior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Location: NC Posts: 12	A new point to make. Why, if you knew you were in a seedy situation was he able to simple 'jump in' your car. You should have had the windows up and doors locked. You have to change your level of awareness to suit the situation around you as it evolves.

May 31, 2008, 07:46 AM	#30
KCabbage Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Posts: 707	When I asked what happened, I meant, did he open a door and sit in the car or open and lean in? You keep saying he jumped in. Did he "jump" in through your window? Just curious Maybe its time to pack some mace. Take care

May 31, 2008, 12:20 PM	#32
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I'm going to Monday morning quarterback this. A you should have rolled your windows up immediately. Turned the car around immediately. Since you didn't you now have these concerns about your actions. You did great in that you escaped without injury and without having to shoot. I would have shot only because I have decided to take my chances in court before taking a beating. This guy was trying to rob you and threatening to kill you. Windows up so he had to break it.....then bang

June 1, 2008, 04:50 PM	#36
Spade Cooley Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Posts: 296	I would say that rule number one in a city like Atlanta would be to keep the windows rolled up and the doors locked. I'm from Los Angeles and we had a large number of purses stolen near LAX Airport. Women would pull up to a red light and some scuz ball would leap out from the bus stop and get the purse through the open window. I doubt I would have shot the man but I would have made him think that I wanted to. I would love to take him for a little ride up to about 60 before he fell off. I wonder how fast he would have backed off if a warning shot went near his ear? I doubt he wanted to die and had nothing to live for. That's a bunch of bull. He just knew he could call the average whities bluff. As I've said before on this board and many have challanged my thinking on this issue. If you do shoot in this instance, make sure you have a good story. "I drew my gun and he reached for it". It went off accidently. Who are they going to believe if you go before a jury?

June 2, 2008, 07:06 AM	#38
ImDisaster Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2008 Posts: 403	I'm trying to understand your situation. You were in the passenger seat and the guy jumped into the passenger seat? He fell out when you sped away? Do you mean he leaned in through the window. I have to agree with others that say they would have had the windows up and the doors locked in this scenario. As far as drawing my weapon I will only do that when the situation has escalated to the point where I expect harm. Once someone is on top you, and you've drawn your weapon, but not used it, you have increased the chance that they could disarm you and use it on you. I'm not saying I would have shot someone who was leaning in the window and asking for my money...especially someone who wasn't brandishing any kind of weapon. Speeding off, which was obviously possible was the best choice.

June 2, 2008, 10:49 AM	#41
Spade Cooley Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Posts: 296	And then there are the people who think the poor soul was depressed and had nothing to live for, that he was still bemoaning the fact that his ancestors were slaves, that he was a victim of descrimination, has nothing to live for, etc. These are the fools that become victims. The ones who prepare tactical plans in advance are the ones who survive. They train cops to think, "What would I do if placed in this particular situation". When you have the program in your head it is very likely you will follow it. But the guy who thinks ahead and doesn't place himself/herself in jeopardy is the one who will most likely never have to use deadly force.

June 2, 2008, 11:14 AM	#42
TINCUP AL Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: COLORADO Posts: 109	Something about this story just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe it's just me.

June 2, 2008, 11:45 AM	#43
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Sounds like the typical curbside pharmacy transaction gone bad story we see on the news everyday LOL. I'm not accusing just poking fun.

June 3, 2008, 05:58 PM	#44
CyberSEAL Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Posts: 161	As soon as he said "I don't care, shoot me". Kudos for handing yourself well and making it out.

June 3, 2008, 08:59 PM	#46
Dusty Rivers Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Posts: 235	don't miss quote me I never said you should peepper spray inside your car:barf: __________________ Dusty: I'm kind of a big deal! Rob Pincus follower PDN NRA Lifetime Member, our only voice!

June 4, 2008, 03:46 AM	#49
AdamSean Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2007 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 479	I have been in similar situations twice. Each time, I did NOT shoot. It all happened so fast, but later examination caused me to realize the proper time to pull the trigger. The time to shoot is when you are left with no other option. If the guy had disabled your vehicle, cornered you, aimed a gun at you and left you no means of escape or alternatives, and you felt he would really harm you, then you have no other option than to shoot. And you can defend yourself in court and be within your rights.