.263 Sabre - 6.5-270 AI

Normb263 · May 17, 2009, 07:57 PM

Does anyone out ther in "High Velocity land" have any experience with a wildcat called a a 263 Sabre? I had one built in the 70'son a WW II mauser action. My brief understanding of it is that it was built by Jewrry Shannon of Spanaway WA. It's a .270 case necked down to .263 and fire formed to Ackley Imp. 40 deg. Shoots fine ,1moa or better when I'm good enough for the gun. I'm low on ammo and want to reload for it and shoot it more. I checked a couple of the big die companys and they want $300+ for a set for this weapon. Can someone tell me why I can't order 6.5 - 06 AI dies at half that cost . I think I can neckdown some .270 cases and fire-form them to my chamber. I know that .270 cases are supposed to be 2.54 and the 30-06 is only 2.494. Some one please tell me my plan is feasible or stupid. Thanks Normb263

hodaka · May 17, 2009, 08:39 PM

I will take a stab at this although I'm sure there are others with more experience and knowledge who will weigh in. I think it should work. Much like using .357 dies to load .38 special.

I use .270 brass for my 6.5-06, although I trim them, to keep the brass separate from my 25 and 30-06's.

Any other thoughts?

Sam06 · May 18, 2009, 06:40 AM

Norm the way I see it you have 2 choices.

1. If you saved the brass that you shot in the gun you can get by on the cheap. Get a Neck sizer die in 6.5 and a Body die for a 270 and you can put your old shot brass in 263 back to rights. Then if you have a 6.5 seater you are golden.

2. The other way is to make cases. I am not all that familiar with the 263 Saber and I don't have my wildcat book at work here but I would think if its got a AI shoulder you should be able to form brass(270 win) in a 6.5- 06 Die then fire form them to the Saber chamber. Now all you will need to do is get a neck sizer and maybe a body die and keep the length in spec.

If someone has Load from a disc you can get the case dimensions from them. It has the 263 saber on it.

Scorch · May 18, 2009, 11:54 AM

Hi Norm.
I'm surprised you still have that Shannon rifle. I spoke to you about it maybe 2 years ago?? If you have the dimensions for the 6.5-06 AI, you can compare the dimensions to the fired cases you have. Check shoulder diameter and case body length. Also make sure the shoulder angle is 40 degrees (Ackley) and not 45 degrees (Huntington). Other than those things and the length of the neck, I see no reason why you could not use 6.5-06 AI dies to reload the 263 Sabre. You can find some reload data for the 6.5-06 AI in Cartridges Of The World, and you should be able to develop loads from that.

Normb263 · May 18, 2009, 05:35 PM

Thanks alot for the heads up. Your suggestions are helpful and I'm going to take a run at the problem. A good friend who has the "Powder and Lead" disease as well gave me a a good tip on CH4d.com a die maker that has some 1400 dies available and I should be able to get a custom set to do the job for around $80. Thanks again. As I get going again on the reloading insanity I"ll be back with ??????.Normb263

GeauxTide · May 19, 2009, 12:07 PM

RCBS has their 2 die set for 6.5mm-06 AI for $143. I wouldn't hesitate using these.

budzb4up · September 23, 2014, 12:39 PM

I am new to this forum and am the proud owner of a Jerry Shannon 263 Sabre. My father's. It was made in 1965. I have all the letters and data sent from him to my dad. My dilemma is the brass that I am using. Jerry was firm on WW .06 brass and same for the 270. I have the process for doing all this. He spoke of interior volume only. I have tried to reform 270 brass and other 30.06 brass using his process non WW . All dimensions come out the same. They just do not chamber up...at all. I have Prussian Blued cases till I am crazy. The WW cases show no signs of interference, but all others do. Is there a metallurgical hardness to other cases that I am not informed on. I am saving all my father's brass for reloading but wish to make more. any advice would be great

reynolds357 · September 25, 2014, 08:44 PM

Hornaday will make you a custom set for $170. I order custom made dies from them quite regularly.

Jimro · September 25, 2014, 11:12 PM

If WW brass works, stick with it.

Otherwise you could try sizing with a 270 body die and neck turning. A cartridge is basically just a cylinder (neck) followed by a cone (shoulder) followed by another cone (body). If there is interference it will be on one of these three surfaces (assuming case dimensions only, not considering the bullet). If body sizing and neck trimming doesn't work, then the shoulder needs to be bumped back a few thousandths.

Jimro

WildMonkey · April 25, 2019, 11:06 AM

I know this is a Dead Thread, but this is the one that brought me here. All too often today everyone assumes any Wildcat or "Improved' cartridge is a 40 degree Ackley. Ackley's Popularity today is astronomical and I'm Sure Newton is Not Impressed. This nonsense really needs to end as there are far more Wildcats out there without a 40 degree shoulder than with. The .263 Sabre is a 35* Degree Shoulder Improved Cartridge and it stems from work done by Newton Not Ackley -1913' even if the actual Sabre' was created by someone else altogether. Today Experts know the .35 Degree shoulder is Superior to the 40 as it improves Feeding and the primary reason behind the 40 is only to improve capacity. Besides, it's easier to form 30 or 35 Degree shoulders. / Don't Monkey with the Wild Monkey!

RC20 · April 25, 2019, 07:42 PM

I love reading these threads.

I have yet to figure out why anyone would do it, but its great reading.

263, all new one on me, cool.

**Unclenick** · April 25, 2019, 09:03 PM

That's odd. I always thought of the Ackley Improved line as a small subset of all wildcats. Lord knows there are a lot of them out there.

std7mag · April 26, 2019, 02:47 AM

My Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions recommends using 25-06 cases.
Why?
I don't know...
But there it is. Lol

old roper · April 26, 2019, 04:55 AM

263 Sabre has nothing to do with Ackley and only connection to Ackley is that it's in his book and it does have 35 degree shoulders.

The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversion does list 25-06 case but the loading data comes from Ackley book. When they list Data Source it also list Ackley book and what page.

Ackley book does list 06 case being used so that be neck down. There is no mention either using 270 case. When Handloader's Manual used 25-06 case they used 270 die with taper expander to expand neck just enough to hold .264 bullet so it could be fire formed. I'm guessing lot did read how that neck was formed.

I'm sure loads came from someone other than Ackley as 3 of the loads listed as estimated.

**Unclenick** · April 26, 2019, 07:37 AM

My guess is the reason for 25-06 is so the neck gets thinner rather than thicker, but the difference isn't great either way.

This write-up on the .263 is more recent than the original thread.

May 17, 2009, 07:57 PM	#1
Normb263 Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Out in the sticks going toward Mt Rainier in WA Posts: 35	.263 Sabre - 6.5-270 AI Does anyone out ther in "High Velocity land" have any experience with a wildcat called a a 263 Sabre? I had one built in the 70'son a WW II mauser action. My brief understanding of it is that it was built by Jewrry Shannon of Spanaway WA. It's a .270 case necked down to .263 and fire formed to Ackley Imp. 40 deg. Shoots fine ,1moa or better when I'm good enough for the gun. I'm low on ammo and want to reload for it and shoot it more. I checked a couple of the big die companys and they want $300+ for a set for this weapon. Can someone tell me why I can't order 6.5 - 06 AI dies at half that cost . I think I can neckdown some .270 cases and fire-form them to my chamber. I know that .270 cases are supposed to be 2.54 and the 30-06 is only 2.494. Some one please tell me my plan is feasible or stupid. Thanks Normb263

May 18, 2009, 06:40 AM	#3
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	Norm the way I see it you have 2 choices. 1. If you saved the brass that you shot in the gun you can get by on the cheap. Get a Neck sizer die in 6.5 and a Body die for a 270 and you can put your old shot brass in 263 back to rights. Then if you have a 6.5 seater you are golden. 2. The other way is to make cases. I am not all that familiar with the 263 Saber and I don't have my wildcat book at work here but I would think if its got a AI shoulder you should be able to form brass(270 win) in a 6.5- 06 Die then fire form them to the Saber chamber. Now all you will need to do is get a neck sizer and maybe a body die and keep the length in spec. If someone has Load from a disc you can get the case dimensions from them. It has the 263 saber on it. __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

May 18, 2009, 11:54 AM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Hi Norm. I'm surprised you still have that Shannon rifle. I spoke to you about it maybe 2 years ago?? If you have the dimensions for the 6.5-06 AI, you can compare the dimensions to the fired cases you have. Check shoulder diameter and case body length. Also make sure the shoulder angle is 40 degrees (Ackley) and not 45 degrees (Huntington). Other than those things and the length of the neck, I see no reason why you could not use 6.5-06 AI dies to reload the 263 Sabre. You can find some reload data for the 6.5-06 AI in Cartridges Of The World, and you should be able to develop loads from that. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

May 18, 2009, 05:35 PM	#5
Normb263 Member Join Date: May 10, 2009 Location: Out in the sticks going toward Mt Rainier in WA Posts: 35	.263 Sabre Thanks alot for the heads up. Your suggestions are helpful and I'm going to take a run at the problem. A good friend who has the "Powder and Lead" disease as well gave me a a good tip on CH4d.com a die maker that has some 1400 dies available and I should be able to get a custom set to do the job for around $80. Thanks again. As I get going again on the reloading insanity I"ll be back with ??????.Normb263

September 23, 2014, 12:39 PM	#7
budzb4up Junior Member Join Date: September 22, 2014 Location: God foresaken New York Posts: 1	263 sabre 30.06 Sako FB action I am new to this forum and am the proud owner of a Jerry Shannon 263 Sabre. My father's. It was made in 1965. I have all the letters and data sent from him to my dad. My dilemma is the brass that I am using. Jerry was firm on WW .06 brass and same for the 270. I have the process for doing all this. He spoke of interior volume only. I have tried to reform 270 brass and other 30.06 brass using his process non WW . All dimensions come out the same. They just do not chamber up...at all. I have Prussian Blued cases till I am crazy. The WW cases show no signs of interference, but all others do. Is there a metallurgical hardness to other cases that I am not informed on. I am saving all my father's brass for reloading but wish to make more. any advice would be great

May 17, 2009, 08:39 PM	#2
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	I will take a stab at this although I'm sure there are others with more experience and knowledge who will weigh in. I think it should work. Much like using .357 dies to load .38 special. I use .270 brass for my 6.5-06, although I trim them, to keep the brass separate from my 25 and 30-06's. Any other thoughts?

May 19, 2009, 12:07 PM	#6
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	RCBS has their 2 die set for 6.5mm-06 AI for $143. I wouldn't hesitate using these.

September 25, 2014, 08:44 PM	#8
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Hornaday will make you a custom set for $170. I order custom made dies from them quite regularly.

September 25, 2014, 11:12 PM	#9
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	If WW brass works, stick with it. Otherwise you could try sizing with a 270 body die and neck turning. A cartridge is basically just a cylinder (neck) followed by a cone (shoulder) followed by another cone (body). If there is interference it will be on one of these three surfaces (assuming case dimensions only, not considering the bullet). If body sizing and neck trimming doesn't work, then the shoulder needs to be bumped back a few thousandths. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

April 25, 2019, 11:06 AM	#10
WildMonkey Junior Member Join Date: April 24, 2019 Posts: 1	I know this is a Dead Thread, but this is the one that brought me here. All too often today everyone assumes any Wildcat or "Improved' cartridge is a 40 degree Ackley. Ackley's Popularity today is astronomical and I'm Sure Newton is Not Impressed. This nonsense really needs to end as there are far more Wildcats out there without a 40 degree shoulder than with. The .263 Sabre is a 35* Degree Shoulder Improved Cartridge and it stems from work done by Newton Not Ackley -1913' even if the actual Sabre' was created by someone else altogether. Today Experts know the .35 Degree shoulder is Superior to the 40 as it improves Feeding and the primary reason behind the 40 is only to improve capacity. Besides, it's easier to form 30 or 35 Degree shoulders. / Don't Monkey with the Wild Monkey!

April 25, 2019, 07:42 PM	#11
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I love reading these threads. I have yet to figure out why anyone would do it, but its great reading. 263, all new one on me, cool. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

April 25, 2019, 09:03 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	That's odd. I always thought of the Ackley Improved line as a small subset of all wildcats. Lord knows there are a lot of them out there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 26, 2019, 02:47 AM	#13
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	My Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions recommends using 25-06 cases. Why? I don't know... But there it is. Lol __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

April 26, 2019, 04:55 AM	#14
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	263 Sabre has nothing to do with Ackley and only connection to Ackley is that it's in his book and it does have 35 degree shoulders. The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversion does list 25-06 case but the loading data comes from Ackley book. When they list Data Source it also list Ackley book and what page. Ackley book does list 06 case being used so that be neck down. There is no mention either using 270 case. When Handloader's Manual used 25-06 case they used 270 die with taper expander to expand neck just enough to hold .264 bullet so it could be fire formed. I'm guessing lot did read how that neck was formed. I'm sure loads came from someone other than Ackley as 3 of the loads listed as estimated. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

April 26, 2019, 07:37 AM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	My guess is the reason for 25-06 is so the neck gets thinner rather than thicker, but the difference isn't great either way. This write-up on the .263 is more recent than the original thread. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle