always amazed at the stupidity.

[44 AMP]

Our rights are our rights, but none of them is limitless. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

Our rights vs. GOVT is a matter of interpretation of law. Our rights vs. each other is a matter of negotiation, (hopefully) under the framework of law.

Ban "biker" clothes from your business? It's your right. I don't see any possible argument. If a club / restaurant can require me to wear a suit coat & tie to be served (or even seated), clearly a dress code is allowed. You can argue about WHAT is proper for the dress code, but not that one is allowed, and you are required to meet it, or you don't get in.

No Shirt
No Shoes
No Service

Ever NOT see a sign like this at a business? (primarily a food business?)

Ok, not on the beach, maybe, but even then, there is often a sign, just not strictly enforced.

And the "No Gun" signs aren't really stupid, if you understand the real purpose.

They aren't put up with the expectation that the sign alone will prevent violence, they are put up to prevent lawyers from suing the business IF violence occurs.

Absent such a sign, lawyers will try to claim that the mall (or whatever) allowed guns/gun wielders on the property, and therefore, either encouraged or contributed to the violence, and therefore are responsible, and therefore, must PAY.

And juries have a strong tendency to look at any business as having "deep pockets", sadly no matter what the actual facts are, juries often look only at who they believe can pay.

So, while the sign does restrict your unlimited right to carry, so do many other things. Including MY rights, on my property, and your rights, on yours.

[Skans]

Ok, but can a deed-restricted neighborhood incorporate an anti-gun provision in the covenants and restrictions? What about a condominium? Non-government property, but does a developer or majority group of homeowners/condo owners have a right to declare whole neighborhoods "gun-free" zones? And, is this all that different than a large mall declaring a large public area a "gun-free" zone? In other words what is and is not a "government"?

[Moomooboo]

You guus realize some restaurants have dress codes? Is there not enough things to worry about that people have to worry about this little issue?

[rickyrick]

Most states have laws specifying the definition of your domicile and your rights include your home renting or not.

Most likely your mall and restaurant is leased property and the lessee makes the rules of operation

[TimSr]

No Shirt
No Shoes
No Service

That one is usually imposed by health department law.


Malls are different than other places in that the mall has an owner, and controls common areas, but the businesses inside the mall are independantly owned, and they lease from the mall owner. Sometimes some of those businesses have their own entrance where you do not need to go through a common area to get inside of them.We have a mall here that closed down, except for a Pennys and a Sears that lasted several more years as they owned their buildings. You could go in those stores, and look through the windows (between spaces in the paper over them) and see the abandoned mall they were attached to.

My point is that i'm not sure exactly what the deal is, about how much control store operators in a mall have over their own leased space within it. Obviously the corporation that owns the mall gets to make the rules in the common areas, but I'm not sure how much power a store has within their area if they had opposing views, while letting the mall know why you won't enter is a good idea, I think that letting the stores you would like to visit also know might have a bigger imapct.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Telling a low wage employee at a store run by a major corporation will have little impact. They couldn't care less if you shop there.

Unless you can influence the corporate decision makers with a real economic threat or wide spread negative PR - it's just internet BS.

I'm afraid many of you miss the point about this 'little issue'. It is the fundamental definition of self-defense as a right equal to the definitions that made protected classes not subject to discrimination.

Yapping about shirts or health codes is trivial.

[roashooter]

if its concealed...it falls under the .."NUNYA" rule....and in Oklahoma if the cops are called....WITHOUT ASKING YOU FIRST ..to leave...the cops can only write a ticket for trespassing....and in most cases...just walk you out and wish you a good day...

[bungiex88]

Most places you will be asked to leave. The mall around here is no firearms but there is no signs at the doors or at least the doors I go into so I carry regardless. I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. The only places I don't carry is where state and federal law forbid me to its that simple. Other than that no one knows I have it on me.

[bungiex88]

All stores in a mall have to abide by the mall owner rules. My wife works at a jewelry store owned by Christians and they didn't want to open up early I forget what holiday it was. And the mall told them you have to be open when most stores open on that holiday and they said no so the mall fined them for not opening up early. wasn't just there it was every mall that had that store in there mall was fined. But more power to them standing up to the man even though it doesn't mean anything to the rich scum of the world.

[rickyrick]

Just keep it concealed.

The owner, manager can put up whatever sign the feel fit.

Some places the sign really means no UN-licensed carry.

Does taking away the gun really eliminate all possibility of self preservation? No.

You can carry tasers, mace, fists or run away.

I don't think you'll ever successfully lodge a valid complaint that your civil rights are being violated by a mall sign.

[WV_gunner]

A businesses here actually has a sign saying that you are welcome to carry a gun. It's a small shop. Meanwhile a couple of others have signs saying no guns allowed. Ironically the store I work in is a franchise based store, corporate once sent signs to hang up saying no one can carry. The owners refused to hang them up, the owners and about half of the staff carrys a gun.

[Brit]

My Library used to have a sign "No firearms" then that was replaced by no Illegal guns.

Then that went? After all the local County's were told they could not do that.

Hide your pistol.

[Double Naught Spy]

Saw a shopping mall with the no guns allowed sign. I always want to find someone in charge and ask three questions. Are you really stupid enough to think that sign will stop criminals?

No, they are not. This is a stupid myth started by the pro gun folks about anti-gunners. Business owners know full well that signs do not stop crime. If they believed they did, they would put up "No Robbery Signs."

Are yo really stupid enough to think that sign is needed for lawful citizens?

If you don't want guns in your business in several states, this is specifically what is needed. There is no issue of stupidity here. Otherwise, the signs are for idiot gun carriers who want to argue with mgmt about there not being a sign when they are asked to leave. Apparently, some people don't believe something is a rule, policy, or relevant unless it is posted.

Are you really stupid enough to not lawfully armed citizens ready to deal with a crimals?

Again, not an issue of stupidity. Being a lawfully armed citizen does not make you a competent cop. Being lawful in this case and being competent are not inherently related.

[Blacktimberwolf]

It's very easy : "my house, my rules".
You have to respect it or you stay out, stupid or not, that's not the question.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

my understanding in MN ( yep a mall in a nearby town has "the signs" ), is that they can't legally post the signs as it can effect the business's that lease from them...

there was actually a Tandy leather store in this mall that sold holster kits & such... as I was making holsters for a while ( when I had more spare time ) I asked them abouit the signs ,as it was effecting their business... there was also a sporting goods store that also sold guns, in the mall when I asked about it, I was told that the signs the mall owners posted were not legal???

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's very easy : "my house, my rules".

No, we are talking about businesses open to the public. Businesses are highly regulated. You cannot do everything you want in such a business.

Thus, the debate, once again - - is whether the competing rights and societal interests trump you ability to run your business as you want.

It's very easy.

[rickyrick]

You must determine on your own if those signs carry any legal weight.
(Some do-some don't)

Then decide what you're gonna do.

The ball is then in the gun owner's court.

Persuading the store management to take down the sign may not be a fruitful endeavor

[Stevie-Ray]

Absent such a sign, lawyers will try to claim that the mall (or whatever) allowed guns/gun wielders on the property, and therefore, either encouraged or contributed to the violence, and therefore are responsible, and therefore, must PAY.

And juries have a strong tendency to look at any business as having "deep pockets", sadly no matter what the actual facts are, juries often look only at who they believe can pay.

If a shooting occurs with the sign in place, a lawyer will likely argue the sign was meaningless, since there was nobody at the door checking to make sure the sign wasn't being disobeyed. And the "deep pockets" statement will again come into play as the lawyer wins his case in today's litigious America, even if the shooter is a hero and the victim a career criminal.

[vito]

Aside from the issues of individual rights versus property rights, there is also the question of why someone would post a no guns sign. Surely they realize that criminals will ignore such a sign. My guess is that many store owners are like one of my daughters. She prefers for me not to carry when I visit her home. She believes that the likelihood of their being a break-in or other criminal act committed against her or her family at her home is virtually non-existent. The reality that no one is totally immune from criminal violence does not seem to get through to her. So she sees no legitimate need for anyone to be armed in her home, and does worry about the small but undeniably real possibility of an accidental or negligent discharge (which of course she fears would harm or kill one of her children). She considers me a highly responsible person but still feels that my carrying a firearm into her home puts her and her children at higher risk than is offset by any possible benefit to me being armed and able to protect her. My guess is that many store owners feel exactly the same way. It is then my choice, when I see a store so posted, to decide if I want to shop there.

[Tin Foil]

@SaxonPig,

Most of the time its because of insurance reasons as well as they are running scared of civil suit.
Check this one out, a local indoor range that just open will not allow you to bring in your own practice ammo because of the fear some will try to sneak in reloads.
They said their insurance company wanted to much in premiums to cover that.

Sometimes we in the gun community are own worst enemies. But if you miss that sign don't panic and if they make you and ask you to leave just leave. And if you ever had to use it in a no gun sign area a good lawyer could make a case on account you never saw it.

Just make sure you never get caught on school property, county/State/Federal property or you will go to jail. And you'll lose your gun rights.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

county/State/Federal property or you will go to jail. And you'll lose your gun rights.

the local county court house & the local post office, neither have signs posted ( I've actually looked ) I would think it would be pretty hard to prosecute if someone forgot, if there were no signs posted ???

[Tin Foil]

I hear ya. I'm always on the look out for a lawyer who has a office over a liquor store. (that means they are hungry)
I remember once down in San Antone years ago I had to go into the Federal court house to check on general mail delivery, good God Almighty. I thought I was being vented for top secret clearance.

[vito]

Some states, like Illinois, being caught in a posted location (assuming the posted sign meets the state requirements and that it is prominently displayed as required) is the same as being caught in a legislatively prohibited place, such as a school. You would face prosecution and likely lose your concealed carry license.

As far as gun owners sometimes being our own worst enemy, the pistol club that I belong to initially was going to prohibit concealed carry by its members when IL finally legalized concealed carry. Fortunately wiser heads prevailed, arguing that those of us in the gun club, NRA members all, who argue with the anti's about responsible gun ownership, would look sadly hypocritical if we refused to honor legal concealed carry. So now we can carry at the indoor ranges, but must keep our loaded and concealed firearm concealed at all times. If you want to shoot your carry gun, you need to have it unloaded and cased before you enter the club. Luckily the local press never got wind of the proposed ban on concealed carry by our governing board.

[Tin Foil]

@Vito,

Good point. Check this out, the range I use will not allow you to enter the range area with your gun holstered. They claim it's an OSHA regulation. And I remember the first time I went there the owner was very adamant about it.
He even ask more than once if my gun was holstered. Now that he knows me he's more relaxed. The Feds got everyone running scared out here. Help along the way I'm sure by the anti-gunners.

[manta49]

Most places you will be asked to leave. The mall around here is no firearms but there is no signs at the doors or at least the doors I go into so I carry regardless. I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. The only places I don't carry is where state and federal law forbid me to its that simple. Other than that no one knows I have it on me.

I am sure you like people to abide by your wishes when they are on your property. But you feel it's OK for you to ignore other people's wishes when you are on their property.