Range Report. Hornady 357 XTP 158's

[Nick_C_S]

XTP's are great bullets. In the case of their 158's, Hornady's manual only has data for powders too slow for my liking (296/110, 2400, AA9, etc). Now they seat a little deeper (at the cannelure) than similar 158's from Speer or Sierra, and so that entitles them to a little bit of a slower powder (less internal case volume means pressures building faster - giving the net effect of a faster power), but I don't think the difference could be enough to justify their slow-powder centricity - IMO. Seems to be a Hornady manual trait in general.

Here's some load data I've worked up, using Hornady 158 XTP's (#35750). None of these recipes are found in the Hornady manual, but can be found in either Speer #14 or Sierra #V, or both. So there's nothing here outrageously hot. I don't hot rod rounds. My motivation here was to work up some good rounds of Hornady XTP's with powders faster than the super-slow stuff found in Hornady's manual.

(All loads are using CCI 550 magnum primers. I always do workups of defense rounds with magnum primers. In the case of HS-6 below, I'd use mag primers either way.) The two guns used were both S&W 686's.

The following load data is for informational reference purposes only. All loaders must exercise personal responsibility to create their own recipes, starting low, and working up.

7.9g Power Pistol - 1065 fps 3"bbl; 1144 fps 4"bbl. The fired brass fell out of the charge holes without the use of the extractor star. No signs of high pressure whatsoever. I plan on increasing this recipe. It's a work in progress.

9.2g AA5 - 1097 fps 3" bbl; 1159 fps 4" bbl. There were minor extraction problems, and slightly flattened primers. I consider this load recipe set. It is an excellent, high-power, low-flash defense round for 3" to 4" barrels.

9.2g HS-6 - 1107 fps 3" bbl; 1153 fps 4" bbl. There were minor extraction problems, and slightly flattened primers. I consider this load recipe set. But it is a little muzzle flashy. So maybe this round is better suited for full-power practice, than actual defense.

10.5g AA7 - 1143 fps 3" bbl; 1208 fps 4" bbl. No signs of pressure whatsoever. This recipe needs to go hotter. But it is flashy and is not well suited for short barrel guns. Any additional load workups - if I even bother - will be with the 4" barrel 686 only. It's actually better suited for 6" (+) barrels.

[ligonierbill]

Thanks for the data. Waiting for some decent weather to test some 158 XTP over H110 and 300-MP. FWIW, Blazer Brass 158 JHP average 1,239 out of my 4" GP-100 with a STD of 14.6.

[BCB]

From bottom to top—I think…

35 grain XTP…25 Auto
158 grain XTP…357 Magnum
240 grain XTP…44 Magnum
255 grain cast…Hollow Pointed with Forster trimmer…452490 boolit…45 Colt

ALL were fired at near maximum velocity. The fast-burning powders (maybe except AA#7) listed in Nick C S post may not develop enough momentum to “mushroom” the XTP bullets. H-110 was used in all roads except, of course, the 25 Auto…

Just my thoughts. The XTP is a good bullet, but pricey and I really only shoot cast boolits anymore…

Good-luck…BCB

[BCB]

Made a mistake in my previous post. I listed the top boolit as a 45-270-SAA and it is actually a 452490…

The 45-270-SAA is shown in this pic. It was also hollow pointed using the Forester trimmer...

I know the topic was XTP, but my point is that I think you have got to push these types of bullets to a near maximum velocity to get the expansion properties…

Good-luck…BCB

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Nick_C_S:

My motivation here was to work up some good rounds of Hornady XTP's with powders faster than the super-slow stuff found in Hornady's manual. I don't hot rod rounds.

As for burn rate.......AA7 has virtually the same rate as one of those "super slow stuff" powders, 2400.

The reason most load manuals do not list fast powders for use with heavy bullets in true magnum loadings is simple.....they do not work that well. The lack of recipes for fast powders in heavy magnum loads in Lyman's, Speer, Nosler and Hodgdon manuals is proof that Hornady is not the only one that thinks this. Your experience with sticky extraction well before reaching a mere 1200 fps also mirrors this. Hot loads are not just those that give screamin' high velocities. Hot loads can also be those that just produce excessive pressure. Fast powders with heavy bullets can produce excessive pressures in magnum cartridges long before they push those bullets to magnum velocities.

As for your AA7 load, Lyman shows max of 11.5 under the 158 XTP. They used a 4'' test barrel for developing this load. Barrel length in handguns does not dictate what powder to use. Bullet weight and velocity desired does. The powders that give the best velocities in long barrels generally give the best velocities in short barrels. You figures show this.

As a handloader, it is fun to play around with different powders and velocities. But when one cannot find recipes using certain types of powder/bullet combos in specific calibers, there generally is a good reason. In the majority of those cases, that reason is not because it hasn't been tried before.

[coldbeer]

My 357 Magnum plinking load is 8.2 grains of HS-6 with 158gr jacketed bullets. The Hogdon manual has 9 grains of HS-6 as a max load with the 158gr xtp which would explain your extraction issues and flattened primers. If you're looking for higher velocity then the slower powders are what you should be using.

[Nick_C_S]

As for burn rate.......AA7 has virtually the same rate as one of those "super slow stuff" powders, 2400.

Hornady's manual with 158's only shows AA9, N-110, 2400, H110 (aka 296), IMR 4227, Power Pro 300, and N-120 as propellant choices. Of those, 2400 is probably the fastest powder. Yes, AA7 is close to 2400, but it's probably slightly faster. But 2400 is the fastest of Hornady's propellant choices.

The lack of recipes for fast powders in heavy magnum loads in Lyman's, Speer, Nosler and Hodgdon manuals is proof that Hornady is not the only one that thinks this.

Sierra has 158g data using AA2, Bullseye, and 231. Speer has data for Unique, AA5, AA7, and HS-6. Of the manuals I have, only Hornady has exclusively slow powders.

Barrel length in handguns does not dictate what powder to use.

Absolutely yes, it does. I'm not using 296 in a snubbie. Nor is there much reason to use 231 in a 8-3/8" hand cannon.

The powders that give the best velocities in long barrels generally give the best velocities in short barrels. You figures show this.

True. But velocity doesn't give the full story. A truly balanced round won't throw a 3-foot flame of burning powder in the open air. A well engineered round for the barrel length of the gun won't excessively flash and will generate good (not necessarily maximum) velocities without superfluous muzzle flash. That's how I choose to load.

But when one cannot find recipes using certain types of powder/bullet combos in specific calibers, there generally is a good reason.

The recipes I used were pulled from Speer and Sierra.

[Nick_C_S]

I know the topic was XTP, but my point is that I think you have got to push these types of bullets/boolits to a near maximum velocity to get the expansion properties.

Darn, I'm fresh out of ballistics gelatin I don't really know, but Hornady says their XTP's expand "over a wide range of velocities" (paraphrasing) - for whatever that's worth. I would think they'd open up pretty good at the velocities already attained. I know 158g HP's from the 1980's did so with no trouble. Why not the new stuff?

My general rule when doing work ups with handgun HP's, is once I hit 1250-ish fps, I usually call it good and move on to the next load. That is not to say that I try to attain 1250 fps with all load work ups. I'm just saying that it's my understanding that most handgun bullets aren't really designed to perform any better beyond that.

In the case of Power Pistol and AA7, there's still room to move up. Chasing velocities is a good way to blow up a gun, so I don't do work ups from that point of view. That said however, it looks like Power Pistol is going to hit 1200 fps with no problem. And AA7 is already there (although I wasn't happy with the way it behaved with the shorter barrels. I don't think it has what I'm looking for here. But you never know, adding a little more powder may change its behavior a little - possibly).

[mmb713]

Nick,

I love the 158gr XTP too. You aren't limited to just Hornady's data with slow powders though. Hodgdon and Western Powders both publish data for the Hornady 158gr XTP in 357 Magnum on their online data centers. There is published data for the 158gr XTP with just about every Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR, Accurate Arms and Ramshot powder. Lyman's 49th has data with Unique, Blue Dot and 2400 with Hornady's bullet. Along with Hornady's data with 2400 and 300-MP Alliant's powders are pretty well covered too. The 158gr XTP probably has more published, tested data for it than any other bullet out there. There really is no need to extrapolate data from Sierra and Speer. Although they are a good source to cross reference data, which I frequently do. The more data sources the better.

FWIW, I've found that Hornady, Sierra and Nosler 158gr JHPs all give about the same velocities with the same charges of N110 in my experience. I'd bet that would hold true with any other powder too.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...ec_1-23-14.pdf

[WESHOOT2]

That has not been my experience; over 2400 / N110 / AA9 / H10 / W296 I can get statistically significant velocity differences with differing 125s/140s/Speer 146s.

But I use and prefer the XTP. Except for a 125g JHP I much prefer the conventional R-P S-JHP.

[Nick_C_S]

I went back to the range to chronograph the Power Pistol and AA7 workups this morning.

I only brought the 4" barrel gun today. Mostly for brevity. We know the 3" will yield less velocity.

Power Pistol - 8.1g (up from the previous 7.9g) = 1230 fps. No signs of pressure. I might try 8.2g in the future - I won't take a 0.2g jump next time. Power Pistol is known to be quite flashy. My range is covered and it was a cloudy day. I didn't notice any significant muzzle flash.

AA7 - 11.0g (up from the previous 10.5g) = 1291 fps. No signs of pressure. I haven't decided if I want to move up from this loading. Unlike last time (with the 10.5g), I was very pleased with this load. There was some muzzle flash - as would be expected with a slow powder, burning in a 4" bbl. Recoil was crisp and with a quick and abundant snap. It felt "right," is the best way I can explain it. Its behavior was much more pleasing than the previous 10.5g load. 30 years of experience told me that the 10.5g wasn't right and was way too soft. That's why I made a very rare 0.5g jump. It's running in its sweet spot now.

[SHR970]

The reason most load manuals do not list fast powders for use with heavy bullets in true magnum loadings is simple.....they do not work that well. The lack of recipes for fast powders in heavy magnum loads in Lyman's, Speer, Nosler and Hodgdon manuals is proof that Hornady is not the only one that thinks this.

I strongly doubt that. The same 158 gr. XTP bullets are shown in the 38 Special section and loads have powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, AA#2, 700X, et. al. In Hornady's bullet guide in the front of the manual they list the operating range for this bullet as 700-1400 fps. In that weight range, AA#7, Herco, 800X, SR7625, HS-6, HS-7, and many others perform well; you won't get top velocity but they still work well.

More likely, they use the slow powders since
a)many loaders (especially novices) want top speed from a magnum
b)the real fast powders get 'peaky' fast
c) you have only so much space to list in the book
d) it takes lots of time to test lots of powders

[Nick_C_S]

Good insight SHR970.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by SHR970:

I strongly doubt that. The same 158 gr. XTP bullets are shown in the 38 Special section and loads have powders like Red Dot, Bullseye, AA#2, 700X, et. al. In Hornady's bullet guide in the front of the manual they list the operating range for this bullet as 700-1400 fps. In that weight range, AA#7, Herco, 800X, SR7625, HS-6, HS-7, and many others perform well; you won't get top velocity but they still work well.

More likely, they use the slow powders since
a)many loaders (especially novices) want top speed from a magnum
b)the real fast powders get 'peaky' fast
c) you have only so much space to list in the book
d) it takes lots of time to test lots of powders

If you read my statement I don't state that the 158 XTPs do not perform well at below magnum velocities or in .38 special @ .38 special velocities using a fast burning powder. I state that fast powders do not work well with heavy bullets in true magnum loadings. No where did I state that faster powders don't work well in powderpuff .357 loads either. They are exactly what I use for powderpuff .357 loads.....either Unique or W231/HP38. Matter of fact 7.5 of Unique under a 158 JHP is my favorite, but XTPs are a little pricey for a plinker.

As for the info in loading books.... all of what you say is true. I doubt that the time to test loads is much of an issue tho. It may very well be, that powder/bullet combos that performed poorly in the past are tested again as to not waste time. With the limited space available in the manuals and limited interest in loads that don't perform well, not every load gets published. Hornady is trying to sell bullets. Odds are they are going to publish loads in their manual that make their bullets perform well......so they can sell more. Folks that buy XTPs generally don't buy them for plinkers in .357, could be another reason Hornady does not give much info for plinking loads with them. Could be why they publish plinking loads for their swaged lead bullets directly after the XTP loads.

I was not criticizing the OP for attempting to make plinking loads, only giving him a reason for why there is limited resources for the powders he chose and why he was having sticky extraction when using fast powders at magnum velocities.

[Nick_C_S]

Well, I wasn't going for plinking rounds. My goal was to create suitable defense rounds, using the heavy 158g XTP bullet, for 357's with a 3" and 4" barrel.

For the 3" barrel, I'm rather pleased with the AA5 (9.2g) load. It delivered 1097 fps, which is about what I realistically expected. Is it a full magnum velocity round? No. But I'd hardly call it a "plinker." Would it reliably expand? I hope so. But either way, the path of a 158g slug moving at nearly 1100 fps would not be the safest place in town. The round also possesses the secondary (but still important to me) characteristics of low flash and moderate recoil. The round met the intended goal of the project. Now, if information is presented to me that 1097 fps isn't fast enough for an XTP to perform as designed (expand), then maybe the 140g XTP is more suitable for the 3" bbl. But moving to a slower powder is not an option; as it goes back to the secondary characteristics that are still important for a balanced defense round.

The AA5 round is also suitable for the 4" bbl. But as it would seem I learned from my trip to the range yesterday, the AA7 performed surprisingly well - once I loaded it up into its sweet spot. By using more powder, it actually reduced the flash - i.e. I got it running where its designed to run. It recorded 1291 fps with headroom to spare. There's little doubt that is plenty fast enough for the XTP to perform as designed.

[SHR970]

If you read my statement I don't state that the 158 XTPs do not perform well at below magnum velocities or in .38 special @ .38 special velocities using a fast burning powder. I state that fast powders do not work well with heavy bullets in true magnum loadings.

I read your statement; and by you highlighting the last part quoted you seem to imply that a true magnum is based on speed. The being the case, refer to point a). If you are implying that at higher pressures, the fast powders can behave funny refer back to point b). From a later comment you made I believe you were on the lines of referring to point b).

In the 36 caliber bores, the 357 operates at twice the pressure of the 38 special. A 34K PSI Bullseye loaded 357 158 gr. bullet @ 1250 fps goes faster and delivers more energy than a 17.4K PSI 38+P 110 gr. bullet @ 1175 fps. 38 Special (speeds & pressures from Hercules with test barrel length being the same). It is common knowledge that some of the fast powders behave funny (suffer pressure spikes) when you get up there in pressure. Bullet weight may or may not be an influence. Medium and medium slow speed powders are generally not known for that. Conversely, slow powders at low pressures are know to behave funny (usually giving a large ES in velocity).

I see that the OP has already addressed the purpose of his test and loads. Over the last 10 years I have done the same testing off and on and one of my reasons was the same. If you want a suitable defensive round for a short barreled gun the usual powders are not the answer. Blue Dot, 2400, W296, et. al. can be very bright. You step up the powder speed, sacrifice a little velocity (some times), and get a lot less muzzle flash. IMO 158 gr. @ 1000 fps from a 3" barrel should not be casually considered a plinking round. I have loaded and shot a lot of AA#7 loads and quite a few W540 / HS-6 loads over the years through my SP101 in both 125. gr. and 158 gr. and no one in their right mind would accuse those loads of being non-magnum.

[Nick_C_S]

SHR970:If you want a suitable defensive round for a short barreled gun the usual powders are not the answer.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Well stated SHR970.

This is the wonder of loading your own. You can tailor rounds to suit your needs and the gun shooting them. Anybody can pack a boat load of 296 in a shell and yield high velocities. This is the kind of loader that the old-timers at the range snicker at behind their backs.

It's no accomplishment to load rounds with all the purpose built individuality of a factory round.

[buck460XVR]

I read your statement; and by you highlighting the last part quoted you seem to imply that a true magnum is based on speed. The being the case, refer to point a). If you are implying that at higher pressures, the fast powders can behave funny refer back to point b). From a later comment you made I believe you were on the lines of referring to point b).

I actually wasn't implying either but making a direct statement that both are true. While technically, any load in a .357 magnum case could be considered a ".357 magnum" load, IMHO, a "magnum" load is one that legitimately exceeds the velocities and energies that were obtained from it's parent case. This is what these differences you post are all about. As you state...... common knowledge.

In the 36 caliber bores, the 357 operates at twice the pressure of the 38 special. A 34K PSI Bullseye loaded 357 158 gr. bullet @ 1250 fps goes faster and delivers more energy than a 17.4K PSI 38+P 110 gr. bullet @ 1175 fps. 38 Special (speeds & pressures from Hercules with test barrel length being the same). It is common knowledge that some of the fast powders behave funny (suffer pressure spikes) when you get up there in pressure. Bullet weight may or may not be an influence. Medium and medium slow speed powders are generally not known for that.

This is exactly what I was referring to in my first post. But heavier bullets because they are harder to start down the barrel will tend to make fast powders spike at pressures higher than needed without giving decent performance.

I see that the OP has already addressed the purpose of his test and loads.

But the OP did not state that in his original post. His intentions stated in the OP were...

My motivation here was to work up some good rounds of Hornady XTP's with powders faster than the super-slow stuff found in Hornady's manual.

Nothing about them being a reduced load, low flash SD round. He also stated he did not do "hot" rounds , but the almost 1200fps and sticky extraction from using a fast powder tells me he was making "hot" rounds, and as you implied, velocity does not always equate to pressure. Poor choice of powder for the application....again, why most books don't publish it.

IMO 158 gr. @ 1000 fps from a 3" barrel should not be casually considered a plinking round.

No it's not....but it also not something that should be attempted, for the most part, with a fast powder.

Again, I was not criticizing the OP for his loads, only pointing out why he was experiencing signs of excessive pressure with fast powders and the reason the loads he sought were not readily found in published sources. Again, common knowledge. If he has found what he is looking for in a SD round....good for him. We all should use what we are most comfortable with and most proficient with when it comes to SD/HD ammo. To me, muzzle flash is the last of my concerns when it comes to SD ammo. My first concerns are accuracy, reliability and terminal performance. This is what makes me comfortable. If others have other priorities, I do not have an issue.

[WESHOOT2]

It took considerable development time to find the proper 38 Special defense load for wife's S&W M38 Airweight Bodyguard.

Recoil, POI vs POA, sectional density, expansion potential, flash signature, accuracy; all played their part in my decisions and testing.



FWIW, the load uses HS6 and a 140g XTP-HP, in new nickeled sized cases, and a Federal primer, all finished with a firm Redding crimp.

[Nick_C_S]

In my OP, I should have been more specific than "good rounds." When I wrote that, I think I was assuming at the time that the "XTP" part would automatically imply I was making rounds suitable for defense. No, I'm not being snide here - I really should have not assumed, and should have been more specific.

I got my first gun in 1983. Nine months later, I had 4 guns and was loading my own ammunition. 2 of those 4 guns were S&W's with 8-3/8" barrels (686 & 629); and those were the guns I shot and loaded for the most.

After the normal experimenting a new loader does, I found myself using W296 almost exclusively. One of my pet loads for 357 was with a Sierra 110g JHC, packed to the mouth with 296. Even with the 8" bbl, it still blew out a 4' flame. Shooting them at night was quite a show. I estimate the velocity to be somewhere in the 1500+fps. Maybe 1600.

Okay, if I go any further, I'll just be indulging myself in reminiscence. My point is: Yes, I assembled ammunition back then. But I didn't really understand the craft of loading. The long barrels masked my lack of crafting skills. Most of the time, I made good rounds - balanced for the gun. But it was just luck.

Fast forward almost 30 years. My shooting style has changed. My firearm choices have changed. My body has changed My purposes have expanded. New challenges have presented itself to me as a loader. It's no longer about sheer velocity.

One of the most recent changes, is my move to heavier bullets for SD. I used to be more "expansion centric," lending itself to light bullets (125g for 357). After spending some time here on TFL, and doing other research, I've come to understand that "you first must make a hole," as someone astutely posted here on TFL some time back (wish I could remember who). I've decided - especially in cool weather, when heavy clothing is worn - that a heavier bullet may be more suitable for effective SD. Hence, the 158 XTP workup.

To me, muzzle flash is a consideration. At night, it's temporarily blinding - in a SD situation, vision is paramount. As I said, my body has changed. I'm not as strong as I used to be. Recoil and recovery time are tactical considerations. I'm no weakling, but I don't have the big forearms that I used to. And my guns have changed. The above mentioned two 8-3/8" bbl guns are now safe queens. I carry my 686 3" bbl. These are the reasons for doing the work up with faster powders than the common garden variety magnum load. We're loaders. We make custom rounds.

I don't define "magnum" as a term of velocity. I define magnum as a term of pressure. Granted, I can't measure pressure. But I can measure velocity, and imply pressure against my realistic expectations of the recipe (based on research). Keep in mind, that when I mentioned "slightly difficult extraction" in my OP, I'm talking about just having to nudge the extractor rod ever so slightly more than normal - just enough to notice. I've loaded rounds where I've had to pound the extractor rod against a vertical post to get the brass out (I haven't loaded that way in many years, btw). These recipes in the OP (the AA5 and HS-6) are not over pressure.

The beauty of 357 magnum, is you have the pressure headroom to make bullets go fast (enough) with a wide range of powder speeds. Thus, the ability to make custom rounds for your application, gun, purpose, and ability.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Nick_C_S:

In my OP, I should have been more specific than "good rounds." When I wrote that, I think I was assuming at the time that the "XTP" part would automatically imply I was making rounds suitable for defense. No, I'm not being snide here - I really should have not assumed, and should have been more specific.

I'm wasn't trying to be snide before, nor do I intend to be now either. To me, a 158gr XTP is a hunting type bullet in .357, so I wrongly assumed also. For SD/HD I tend to believe from Hornady, the 125/140 gr XTP or FTX is more appropriate. When one goes to buy factory ammo in .357 for hunting deer manufactured by Hornady, for a revolver, the only thing they offer is Custom in 158gr XTP. For SD/HD they have other options. Similar to Speer Gold Dots. Speer offers a SD/HD Gold Dot in .357, but is is a 125gr. Their 158gr GD is now renamed "deep curl" and intended for hunting velocities. But this thread wasn't about bullet selection, but why info for fast powders and 158gr bullets in .357 magnum are far and few between. Glad you found the load you were looking for. While I like 158gr for both .357 and .38 SD/HD loads I tend to use the Remmie SJHPs. The Speer JHPs works well also. For even better penetration in a 158 XTP, they also make a FP along with the HP. The FP is what I generally use in the carbines for hunting as those velocities tend to be a bit fast for the HP.