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Old February 7, 2010, 11:57 AM   #1
JohnH1963
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Getting shot multiple times...but still keeps coming...internet legend and lore?

I will be honest I have never shot anyone so I don't really know firsthand what happens when the bullet meets the body. I truly hope that I will continue on in life without that firsthand knowledge

However, I have read a lot of internet posts that seem to talk about people getting hit with multiple shots yet not being stopped. I would assume that one bullet hitting a person in any part of their body would dramatically slow them down a bit. If I were shot in the leg, then I am not going to be good at running. If I were shot in the arm, then my legs would work, but I would have to hold my arms and hand slowing me down a bit.

So how many times have you personally seen someone get shot and still keep on the move to the point where they remain a threat against you? I have read news articles about it happening, but how many times does it actually happen where a double-tap fails to substantially slow a person down?
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Old February 7, 2010, 12:14 PM   #2
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I would have to say adrenaline has a lot to do with it, I have never gotten shot but sliced my hand completely open while working at a job. I must admit that I didn't feel much until the next day thanks to the adrenaline, morphine, and drugs.

If you would like to see what a hollow point does to a body, then look at this video: (it is based on one specific type of ammo, but it is a hollow point none the less) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkGdhELgirw
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Old February 7, 2010, 12:36 PM   #3
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Not sure threat wise, but in 95 I walked up on two Marines talking with two guys (probably gangbangers or at least bad guys) on bikes up at the pier in Oceanside CA-- it was about 3 am and while we were going to drink some beer and go for a late night dip, I am pretty sure the 2 Marines were looking to score some weed or meth-- anyway, I was about 20 feet away from them when I witnessed one of the bicycle guy point violently-- and then "bam, bam, " he shot one Marine 4 times with a small caliber pistol and then took off-- the other Marine ran away, and I went to render aid while my friends went to call 911-- I am not sure the caliber exactly, but I am guessing it was probably a .32 or .25- -maybe a .380-- he was shot twice in the chest, once in the lower torso/intestine area and once in the right kidney area-- one chest shot and the kidney shot punched all the way through and the other two did not-- needless to say he went down like a sack of potatoes-- I rolled him over to keep his good lung free of fluid and I used his hoodie to try and stop the blood-- by the time the cops and careflight arrived, he was already gasping with a deathlike pace and his eyes were rolling back and he was no longer really conscious....I think if the guy could have taken off after being shot, he would have, I guess it may not be the number of rounds or size, but more of shot placement...

I guess that is my real experience I can legally talk of-- I did witness stuff in a certain Caribbean duty station in a Commie country, and all I will say it that the few people I saw on the receiving in of an AKM didn't take but a round or two to go down...
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Old February 7, 2010, 12:40 PM   #4
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Conclusions from Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, a Department of Justice report by the FBI Firearms Training Unit

Conclusions

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
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Old February 7, 2010, 12:52 PM   #5
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Personally seen? Never.

Credible accounts from others who have? A lot.

One that strongly affected me, early in my training, was watching the Ultimate Survivors video from Calibre Press. That video featured an extended interview with Officer Steve Chaney, and a recreation of Chaney's encounter with a criminal, John Mullery, who absorbed 11 shots of JHP .38+p to the head and body before finally going down for good. One of the shots that failed to drop Mullery was a contact-distance shot to the top of his skull, which did penetrate the brain and temporarily stunned the man, but failed to disrupt any vital tissue -- he revived and kept fighting.

Another inspirational encounter that strongly affected me during my training was the story of Officer Stacy Lim, who was shot at close range in the chest with a .357 Magnum -- a shot that actually hit her heart -- but who then chased down her attacker and put him down before losing consciousness. She survived and is still working as an officer.

Then there's the humorous tale that Jim Cirillo enjoyed telling. I think it's in his book, Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights, but I heard it from him personally. Far funnier in person, believe me! Two of his officers were "mugged" as they were arriving to set up a stakeout in NYC back in the day. Because they were undercover and just arriving at location, the only firearms immediately accessible to them were their backup guns, .38 Spl revolvers. Both of them emptied their guns into their attacker, every round landing in the assailant's head or neck. The man went down and the officers got on the radio to report the incident. Standing over the apparently dead body, one of the officers gave a description of the suspect, "... suspect is approximately 180 pounds, 35 years old--" at which the suspect sat up and said indignantly, "****, man, I'm only 28!" Then he asked for a tissue, sneezed, blew his nose -- and a bullet tumbled to the pavement. He later walked to the ambulance under his own power.

Then of course there is the famed Miami shootout (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout or http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html ), in which one of the criminals, Platt, absorbed an incredible number of rounds and inflicted a whole lot of heartbreak before finally going down.

There's also the Pete Soulis incident, which you can read about at http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-a..._incident.html

In all of the above cases, these were multiple, well-placed shots with modern centerfire ammunition of a caliber generally accepted as powerful enough for self-defense. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of less well-known cases where the same types of things have happened, but these ones are the easiest to research for yourself.

Does every attacker keep coming after getting hit? Nope. Can it happen? Yep. Should you expect it to happen and have a plan to cope if it does? I think so.

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Last edited by pax; February 7, 2010 at 01:02 PM. Reason: typo
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Old February 7, 2010, 12:58 PM   #6
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I've personally seen it.

DOL
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Old February 7, 2010, 03:03 PM   #7
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+1 on researching the damage Michael Platt did despite being mortally wounded at the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout. Toxicology reports confirmed that both Platt and his accomplice Matix were not under the influence during this tragic event.

There is also the murder of South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates. In November 1992, Coates was on a traffic stop when he was attacked, his assailant initially shooting him twice with a NAA .22 caliber mini-revolver. These shots were stopped by Trooper Coates vest and he returned fire with a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His sidearm was loaded with 145-grain Silvertip ammunition and Coates scored four solid lower torso hits on his attacker.

The attacker absorded the hits and returned fire, striking Coates with one shot from the mini-revolver. The small .22 caliber round struck Coates in the left upper arm, and then continued into his chest through the armhole in his body armor where it struck a major artery. Trooper Coates was able to run towards the front of his killers vehicle, seeking cover, while also radioing in that he had been shot. As he neared the front fender Trooper Coates collapsed.

His killer was survived the shooting, was convicted of Trooper Coates murder, and is serving a life sentence.
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Old February 7, 2010, 03:19 PM   #8
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Pax is right.

It's no legend. You can read Mas Ayoobs books and he has documented cases of just this thing.
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Old February 7, 2010, 05:20 PM   #9
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with PCP, definitely
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Old February 7, 2010, 05:23 PM   #10
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In one of the classes I attended, Clint Smith said" on any give day, the perp may not accept the flavor of the day, super stopper, one shot knock-down ammo you have in the gun. You need to be ready for that day!"


With-in 4 or 5 months of that class a serious fight occured 6 nine mm and 4 .45 ACP hits in the thorax did not fix it, a street bitch with 00 Buck finally solved the problem.

Human beings are difficult targets, knock power is a myth, and sometimes hitting the pump or the CPU is just not enough.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old February 7, 2010, 05:29 PM   #11
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Personally seen? Never. The people I have seen shot in real life either went down quick or were not wounded bad enough to go down, but ceased fighting.

However, I have seen several videos of where folks have been shot multiple times and continue to fight. These are videos from dash cams and security cameras. Heck, they even had one such incident on COPS (naked black guy in barbershop) where the bad guy was on PCP.

Then there is this study...
http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
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Old February 7, 2010, 06:31 PM   #12
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When I was a resident at a Philadelphia University Hospital, a patient came to the E.R. with a complaint of a headache. He was seen by another resident, a friend of mine. He denied any history of trauma, but had a few minor abnormalities on his neurologic exam. My friend decided to order a skull x-ray, as many of our E.R. patients' stories were not entirely reliable. The radiologist called back to the E.R. and said the patient had a bullet, estimated to be .45 caliber, almost in the exact center of his brain. He was questioned again about head injuries and then recalled that several days before he had been in a card game where one of the players claimed he had been cheated, left the game, and later returned with a handgun that he began firing as soon as he re-entered the room. The patient stated that he dove out of a first-floor window and thought he struck his head on the windowsill on his way out. Apparently not so. A careful examination of his scalp revealed a small scab over a laceration on the side of his head. A consulting neurosurgeon was of the opinion that antibiotics should be given to prevent possible meningitis, but that surgery was inadvisable as it was likely to make him neurologically worse. The x-ray made the cover of the next Medical Center newsmagazine. My conclusion was that as far as gunshot effects are concerned almost anything was possible.
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Old February 7, 2010, 11:23 PM   #13
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11 shots to the head and torso with a .38. Shot in the heart with a .357. No i dont think that happens. can it? yes but with a .357 you will blow a big hole in a heart and its lights out. Tales grow taller on down the line. Most likely caught a bullet fragment in the heart. Shot in the head with a .38? must not have hit brain. could it happen? Yes but i could win the lottery too. I have read where a guy was shot 9 times in the chest with a .45 with 230grn hollow points and walked in to the hospital and left it the next day. Again i would call BS. Exagerations
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Old February 7, 2010, 11:28 PM   #14
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Shot in the head with a .45. Now thats interesting because the entry wound would be a half inch hole not a small scab. There had to be a big hole some were in his head as you cant fit a slug that is almost 1/2 ince wide through a 1/16 in hole.
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Old February 8, 2010, 12:58 AM   #15
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.45 is a very good joice.
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:05 AM   #16
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I've seen several personal take multiple hits from a M4, AK, M24 even a M2 and keep coming. No matter the size of the round, it's all about shot placement. I had a buddy get shot in the neck with a 5.56 (no such thing as friendly fire), went completly through missing anything major and was back to work the next day.
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:16 AM   #17
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Anything can happen, ANYTHING, but I would not start carrying a .22 as my defense weapon just because there are exceptions to the rule. So this one guy took 22 .40 rounds before going down. Does that mean .40 is useless? To me that means, keep using the man stoppers and always pray.
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Old February 8, 2010, 03:37 AM   #18
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It happens all the time. A bullet does not possess the physical capacity to slow someone down or knock them down. It comes down to physiology or psychology. Unless you destroy a load-bearing joint, there is simply no physiological reason for someone to stop fighting short of a shot to the central nervous system. Even people shot in the viscera can fight back ferociously and lethally e.g. Platt in the 1986 Miami Shooting was shot through an artery that would have killed him, but he lived long enough to kill 2 FBI agents before finally being incapacitated by a shot that nicked his spine.

There are other contemporary cases i.e. the case of Trooper Mark Coates who failed to incapacitate and kill Richard Blackburn, even with 5 center of mass shots with a .357 Magnum. Blackburn managed to shoot and kill Trooper Coates - with a .22 LR NAA mini-revolver no less! - and lived long enough to be sentenced to life in prison for his crime.

Or the case of Officer Keith Borders, who failed to stop a shotgun-wielding irrational man who refused to go down even after 8 shots with a .45 Glock 21. Only the 9th shot straight through the eye and into the brain instantly dropped the man. Another even more interesting thing to note may be that Officer Borders was actually shot first before he began to fire back - and he was hit with 00-buckshot, with 2 pellets entering his head! He survived and killed his assailant.

Granted, many people stop due to purely psychological reasons. Getting shot hurts. You might not have very strong will. But you cannot rely on psychological reasons to bring someone down. So, like everyone else has said, it comes down to shot placement in the end.
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Old February 8, 2010, 07:31 AM   #19
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When I got shot I did not realize it. It was not until later when we disengaged, regrouped and was checking to see what sort of damage was done did I realize that I had been shot. All I felt was a coolness/burning sensation and wetness in my leg.

We walked into an ambush (Luckily for us, we walked into the wrong side of it and surprised the attackers) and returned fire immediately. I saw one attacker (#1) go down and ignored him as I switched my concentration to another attacker (#2). I fired at him (#2) and saw him go down and as I turned to look for another attacker, the first one began firing at me. I returned fire at #1 and when he ceased firing, I again began looking for more attackers.

In the position I was in, the only one who had a shot at me was attacker #1, and that was only because I had assumed he was down and out before I exposed myself to him.

A wound is not always incapacitating, both I, and attacker #1, are proof of this.

What really made me mad was I was not supposed to even be on patrol that evening. I was given the day off and decided to spend it in the tent reading. (A really good Louis L'Amour book about the Sacketts) One of the patrol members had gotten hurt about thirty minutes before they were supposed to leave and when they came looking for a replacement they found me.

There is/was no anger towards the guy who shot me. He was doing his job and we did ours. That evening we did our job better than his team did theirs.
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Old February 8, 2010, 08:42 AM   #20
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The 2003 Van Nuys courthouse shooting immdiately comes to mind for some reason. Where Gerald Curry was shot sever times at pointblank range. I am not sure about the exact location of his wounds or if the shots hit critical areas, but I believe Curry was hit a total of five times in both the face and upper body. He did not drop and literally walked away afterwards. The shooter William Striler emptied two pistols. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnwnZjVeQg8
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Old February 8, 2010, 09:49 AM   #21
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That was a pretty good article. Now they talked abourt skipping shots across the pavement. I have never seen that technique brought up before. Can anyone expand on this?
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Old February 8, 2010, 09:56 AM   #22
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A lady in our local mall recently got shot in the face by a .32 revolver. It was a negligent discharge. She claimed it felt like getting shocked. The doctors did not remove the bullet and instead opted to let it work itself out. I wasn't there, but I know the area where she was shot, the distance couldn't have been more than 3-4 yards, but was most likely closer to contact distance. If an unsuspecting mall-walker can take a 32 to the face, what do you think someone amped up and ready for the fight is capable of?
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:18 PM   #23
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I've neither been shot or shot at but I firmly believe it is possible to be knocked out. Not literally knocked down but knocked out, which will put you down. It may have even happened to some of you. A blow to the head, especially to the top of the head will often put a person down--but not guaranteed. It happens to boxers all the time. And a blow to the abdomen will often cause a person to double up, at least if they aren't expecting it. But just like a gunshot wound, they are unpredictable.

And down doesn't mean out, either. I understand that sometimes a deer will be hit and go down immediately, then a moment later, leap up and run off. No reason a human couldn't do the same thing.
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Old February 8, 2010, 03:53 PM   #24
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A good friend of mine served as a marine in ww2, he fought the japanese in the philipenes. He just passed away about 4 months ago, he is missed very much. Anyway, I'll never forget what he said about the japanese. He said that they were drugged, and brain washed to an inhumanlike state. He said he and his friends were dropping m-1 garrands if they could get a thompson or a 1911 .45. His account: "...the jap was supposed to be giving up, but he drew a sword and charged, a soldier emptied his m-1 (8 shots) into the man before he even slowed down. The bullets were too fast and just punched little holes, but that .45 just knocked them on over." He even had an account where an enemy was shot in the shirt under the armpit and it threw him to the ground. They thought he was dead and he almost killed them with a sidearm before being shot by the Americans. My conclusion is if I ever needed to shoot, shoot til they stop coming.
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Old February 8, 2010, 04:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Or the case of Officer Keith Borders, who failed to stop a shotgun-wielding irrational man who refused to go down even after 8 shots with a .45 Glock 21. Only the 9th shot straight through the eye and into the brain instantly dropped the man. Another even more interesting thing to note may be that Officer Borders was actually shot first before he began to fire back - and he was hit with 00-buckshot, with 2 pellets entering his head! He survived and killed his assailant.

Quote:
Borders was escorted to a waiting ambulance and conveyed to the hospital, where it was determined that he had been hit with #4 shot, not buckshot and that only four pellets had struck him. After x-raying his skull, and with little more than a cursory checkup, the emergency department physicians bandaged the pellet holes and sent Borders home.
He was hit from a distance of 20 yards and two of those pellets are in his brain. The shooter was trying to get to his 00 buck but Borders shooting prevented that. If Borders had been shot with 00 he most likely would not have survived assuming he was hit in the same place. If he had been at 8 yards instead of 20 yards his chances of surviving the shootout would have been a lot worse. That story just points out again that shot placement is more important than what you shoot. There was only one aimed shot at the head of the assailant and it was that shot that stopped him.

As much as I love my magnums for sport and hunting I use 44 and 38 spcl for HD because I can shoot them more accurately and faster than I can the bigger boomers. I hate having to shoot something twice but if I have to I don't want to wait for recoil recovery before I can shoot again. Borders had an insane situation with the shooters wife interfering with him so I don't fault his shooting. If he could have gotten her to leave the area he might not have had to shoot at all.
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