Survival guns

[ZVP]

I have red several articles on survival guns and few take the time to mention the yeomans job BP can do. Heck even airguns get higher ratings than BP does.
Our forefathers swore by them for self protection and food gathering. I dunno, maybe I have broken some unwritten taboo by mentioning them? Sorry if I did!
I'd not frrl undergunned in .36 or .44 caliber for protection. Wild Bill did!
ZVP

[g.willikers]

Probably has something to do with being able to get the shooting components.
They are usually kind of scarce around here, especially for pistols.
Without the internet and UPS delivery, they might be hard to keep fed.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting post . . . I suppose it all depends on what you are "surviving"?

Are you talking a complete breakdown of society as we know it (for better or worse)?

Are you talking about being stranded out in the middle of nowhere and having to depend on your wits and skills to make it back to civilization?

Either way, it's going to depend on "what you have".

f you have a cartridge weapons and no cartridges . . . well, I guess you could throw it at whatever you need to. If you have the components - powder, primers, casings and mold and a supply of lead you can cast - then a way to reload . . . well, you could survive.

If you have a muzzleloader but no powder or caps (which is why I'd prefer a flintier myself) - again, you're out of luck IMHO.

ZVP - I agree with you . . . if all you had was a muzzle loader and if you had the necessary components . . . you could survive very well if you are a good enough shot to take game.

In the end . . . it all depends on what components you have available at your disposal. Worst case scenario . . . you could revert even further back in our ancestor's time and sharpen a stick on a stone and use it for a spear.

Geeze . . . all this "survival talk" makes me thankful for a "Comfort Inn or a Super 8".

[4V50 Gary]

Bedbugbilly raises some good points. In a total collapse of society, smokepoles are fine IF you're out in the country and can live like a mountain man. If you're thinking of taking on gangsters and looters, forget it. Big cloud of white smoke tells the world where you are. The sharpshooters of the blackpowder era faced this very issue. So, it depends on what you intend to survive.

[North East Redneck]

Given a good stock of lead, powder and either caps or flints, BP seems viable for collecting food and defeating similar or lesser armed people. To take on a group of people armed with cartridge weapons, or even a large force of unarmed attackers, BP weapons are a bad choice. If that is all you have available, BP would certainly be a better defense and hunting tool than a sling shot or knife. And certainly a gun has better range than a bow. Although the rate of fire from a bow is greater than a single shot rifle or shotgun. Multiple cylinders for a revolver may equalize that issue.

[noelf2]

IMHO, survival doesn't hinge on the gun in majority of survival scenarios. Your return on investment, when it really counts, is how to "catch" game, not hunt it. Learn to trap, snare, fabricate and set fish traps, etc... Carry the gun for protection, and when you luck out and jump some game while checking your traps. You'll eat much better that way. Having a reliable gun that you can shoot accurately helps you out in the day time if there's something you can shoot at. There are a whole lot of night time critters out there that you can harvest if you know how to. I grew up trapping game / fur-bearing animals. A couple of leg-hold traps, some snare wire, and some practical experience using them (books help) goes a long way to ensure survival.

[wogpotter]

A lot of this school of thought is based on making B/P after some long term disaster. Its possible to make B/P in a kitchen, unlike modern smokeless which can't really be home fabricated.

It's a bit of an also ran IMO because there are better alternatives (like storing smokeless ammunition) if you're not thinking of a term so long that no matter how much you stockpiled it would be used up.

[ZVP]

GREAT answers!
I have to go with the trap your food and use a BP gun as a last resort for defense.
Survival to me is like being stranded in a small plane crash or auto failure orNatural disaster like an earthquake, where a long period without food could happen.
As a gunfighting tool? One puff of white smoke and... As a close-up one-on-one, BP would probablly save you if you load correctly and it's an even match of weapons. An AK-47 would "Best" you every time!
Far as a Gun Grab by the Govt, they'd probablly be low on the list. However armed police or troops can hve my guns, I want my family to Besides what could you do, fight em?
Yea "survival " is a broad topic.
Thanks guys

[g.willikers]

As an after thought, if survival meant to lay low and live off the land, bow and arrow would need consideration.
Everything can be home made if necessary, and wouldn't attract attention when used.
Fishing, trapping and bow&arrow would be good choices.

[44 Dave]

What are surviving? Depending on what stage of paranoia one is in, I like my muzzle loaders, antique Winchesters and hand me down shot guns because they have no "paper trail"

[SIGSHR]

How many of these "survival" articles are written by people who have tested their ideas and theories ? Biggest argument against using BP is its susceptibility to moisture. Defending against hordes of looters ? Hordes of looters don't have officers or NCOs to urge them on or medics to take care of them when they are injured. In a survival situation knowing how to skin and animal, cook it properly, preserve meat, etc.-skills probably even more important than shooting skills.

[jeager106]

Surviving what seems to be a good question.
If strictly surviving by scrounging food I'd rather have a good, reliable,
.22 rifle and 20K rounds of ammo and a couple dozen traps and some snares.
I, too, grew up trapping for fur when I was a kid.
You would be in real deep doo-doo if you must conjure up some homemade black powder in the kitchen.
It's pretty hard to starve an old hillbilly.

[ZVP]

Survival is a very broad topic. I just wanted to spark-up a thread and get some feedback, which I did and plenty of good thought behind it too!
You guys really give a fella something to think about!
ZVP

[darkgael]

MHO, survival doesn't hinge on the gun in majority of survival scenarios. Your return on investment, when it really counts, is how to "catch" game, not hunt it. Learn to trap, snare, fabricate and set fish traps, etc... Carry the gun for protection, and when you luck out and jump some game while checking your traps. You'll eat much better that way. Having a reliable gun that you can shoot accurately helps you out in the day time if there's something you can shoot at. There are a whole lot of night time critters out there that you can harvest if you know how to. I grew up trapping game / fur-bearing animals. A couple of leg-hold traps, some snare wire, and some practical experience using them (books help) goes a long way to ensure survival.

This^^^^^.

Guns are much overrated as survival tools.....though I surely would want to have one and the means to feed it .....Many times we think in terms of confrontation, of self defense. Perhaps that might be viable if we were dealing with a single person but once the bad guy becomes bad guys our chances of survival if we are alone drop precipitously.
Pete

[Grant D]

I'm with 44 Dave, post# 10
I have a lot of firearms, but there is no paper trail on the muzzle loaders, if God forbid, the government comes after them.
As far as for survival, my wife is a ex Morman, so we have plenty of food stored up lol

[T. O'Heir]

"...are fine IF..." And you know how to make BP without blowing yourself into next week. Making BP is not just a matter of mixing charcoal, sulfur and saltpeter(That you'd also have to know how to make. Starts with cow poop.). Even if you know the correct proportions, BP made that way tends to settle into its component parts just by moving it.

[wogpotter]

That you'd also have to know how to make. Starts with cow poop.

Not always.
There are suppliers for all the things you need & some good tutorials on line, particularly on the "specialist" & "Traditional" BP forums. Some include techniques to prevent mixtures separating & some of the products have been proven as good as, or even better than, modern store bought.

I still don't see the point though unless you are thinking of a decades long emergency.

[spacecoast]

Elevating BP (and esp. percussion) to the top of the "survival" gun list would imply denial of the utility of modern smokeless cartridges.

[noelf2]

Elevating BP (and esp. percussion) to the top of the "survival" gun list would imply denial of the utility of modern smokeless cartridges.

Smokeless cartridges are a passing fad. The last gun to be fired will be a flintlock...

[g.willikers]

If the commercial components for making black powder are available, then probably so is commercial black powder.
In a serious survival situation, small game would be the major food source.
Large game would be useful only if there were a lot of people to feed, or the excess was able to be preserved.
So, large caliber firearms might not get all that much use for hunting.
Unless the location had lots of big game and available salt, or Mother Nature's own deep freeze.

[jeager106]

If you must make black powder you have been in a world of hurt for way too long and most likely haven't survived.
Stupid thinking is stupid thinking.
Knowledge & skills beat relying on weapons every time.
You can't eat ammo no matter how long you cook it.
Learn how to stock up on food, meds, equipment & how to make meat when you need to.

[noelf2]

If you must make black powder you have been in a world of hurt for way too long and most likely haven't survived.
Stupid thinking is stupid thinking.

Or perhaps you have been surviving successfully for long enough without black powder that you now have some time and materials to make it and improve your condition even further..?

[brazosdave]

"...are fine IF..." And you know how to make BP without blowing yourself into next week. Making BP is not just a matter of mixing charcoal, sulfur and saltpeter(That you'd also have to know how to make. Starts with cow poop.). Even if you know the correct proportions, BP made that way tends to settle into its component parts just by moving it.
__________________

It an't rocket science fellas, and this is the 21st century, you don't need fresh poop, there is plenty of already processed chemicals available readily. Myself and a bunch of the guys from gunslingersgulch.com make bp all the time for personal use, and no one has ever blown up themselves. You are not talking about large batches in a factory, with your average intellect, possibly legal citizen employee. Unless you figure yourself to be on the dense side, you'll be fine. Otherwise, stick to slings and rocks. I heard tell they worked back in David's time, should be fine now too, lol!

[kraigwy]

My idea of survival is not the SHTF deal but more along the lines of no job, no money, and the need to feed you're family.

So taking an inventory of my BP shooting equipment, I think I can live a long time.

I'm thinking of my inline TC Omega. I like the idea of casting my own bullets. I have several hundred lbs of lead, about 25 Lbs of powder (mixture of pellets, BP, and BP substitute. 4 K shotgun primers. I also make my own shotgun pellets (for buck shot), and in the process of building a set up to make bird shot.

Also have a couple BP revolvers, a mold, but not a whole lot of percussion caps.

And a couple of BP CR, one in 45-70 and one in 44-90, w/molds.

I think I could eat a long time just using black powder but I don't see it happening. Besides I have a skinny wife who doesn't eat much and it wouldn't hurt me to eat less.

My pension fund is over funded so I don't see problems there, so I'll just use my BP stuff on targets and a bit of hunting.

[4V50 Gary]

Concur with Kraigwy. As I stated earlier, if you want to play mountain man, you can do it with a smokepole and make it. During the Great Depression, the iron mounted rifle was popular among the poor in the South. Shooting them was cheaper than buying cartridges. Lead was probably free (wheel weights, battlefield or range pickups) so all it cost them was powder and caps. They put game on the table and as sung in the Beverly Hill Billies song, "kept their family fed."

Now, if one thing envisioned is engaging gangsters or black whirlybirds, forget it. Better to take a cue from either The Holy Grail or Forrest Gump. "Run away! Run away!" or "Run Forrest, run!"