British Armed Forces Adopt Glock 17 - Page 3

Rainbow Demon · January 12, 2013, 02:42 PM

I had not heard of any difficulty with the internal extractor except with single loading. The 1911 with that same type extractor does not seem to have had such difficulties.
Its a piece that can on rare occasions fail if the pistol is not operated as intended, but not a glaring fault in the design.

With a pistol that you yourself have not had in your unbroken custody you can never be sure whether or not it has been abused. The external extractor is easier to check for function and visible damage, so its a worthwhile improvement.

I've replaced enough external extractors on many types of auto loaders to know that these can also fail if the weapon is abused.

Auto426 · January 12, 2013, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Yes or sold them as surplus as parts for those guns were no longer available. You are demonstrating that you know very little about the BHP. If you knew anything about BHPs with internal extractors you would know that they it is a design which is prone to breakage. NO one not even Browning/FN still makes the internal extractor. They are very hard to come by and no professional standing Army including the British are putting these into combat service because there is no way to support them the the field. Parts are simply not available.

Actually I know a good bit about the Hi Power, but you know what they say about assuming. Maybe I don't know everything about British military procurement, but if they are like pretty much every other military out there they don't discard their guns the second they get a few new ones in. The old guns may be be front line issue anymore, but I seriously doubt they just threw them all away.

Quote:

Auto426 - except that isn't really what you said is it, you said their attitude to firearms, which would be covered by your reply there. Then you said "and their attitude in general", which clearly reads like you are talking about something else, you know, "in general" as opposed to "towards firearms".

So, what is this general attitude?

I guess I didn't word that post the best, but that doesn't matter because you seem determined to find some sort of personal insult in it.

However, things like this give me an idea of their attitude towards weapons in general, not just firearms:

or This.

manta49 · January 12, 2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Probably the fact that they banned almost everything but a few select sporting weapons for civilian ownership.

Again not true i could buy a M4 or similar rifle tomorrow if i wanted straight pull. Also military bolt action rifles hardly a sporting weapon. And what ever handgun i wanted no mag restriction. 50 cal rifles are also available. There is a lot of misinformation on this site when it comes to firearms law in the UK.

Auto426 · January 12, 2013, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Again not true i could buy a M4 or similar rifle tomorrow if i wanted straight pull. Also military bolt action rifles hardly a sporting weapon. And what ever handgun i wanted no mag restriction. 50 cal rifles are also available. There is a lot of misinformation on this site when it comes to firearms law in the UK.

The gun laws of North Ireland differ from those of Great Britain.

Pico · January 12, 2013, 03:32 PM

The pictures of UK soldiers carrying mid chest are great. The US military should consider that concept. Only a bad idea if you are kissing dirt for cover.

BTW I have English and Irish ancestry, been to the UK twice, would go back ANY time, and do not appreciate any of my fellow American gun enthusiasts slandering our best ally. I hope this one is locked if there are any more rude comments.

Pico

WVsig · January 12, 2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Actually I know a good bit about the Hi Power, but you know what they say about assuming. Maybe I don't know everything about British military procurement, but if they are like pretty much every other military out there they don't discard their guns the second they get a few new ones in. The old guns may be be front line issue anymore, but I seriously doubt they just threw them all away.

There is no assuming going on. You have made inaccurate statements again and again in this thread about the BHPs used by the British. You have knowledge about the BHPs of the 40's 50's and 60's you would know that there is no way they are fielding BHPs with internal extractors. So I have to take your statements about your vast knowledge about the BHP with a grain of salt.

Yes militarizes do not get rid of older models as soon as they get new one but they certainly get ride of them when they are no longer able to support them in the field because of obsolescence. Again one has to wonder why you are unable to simply admit you are wrong and that you misspoke?

Auto426 · January 12, 2013, 03:42 PM

So I guess I'm just supposed to take a picture of Prince Harry and your word as proof that there are no older Hi Powers out there in the British military?

WVsig · January 12, 2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

I had not heard of any difficulty with the internal extractor except with single loading. The 1911 with that same type extractor does not seem to have had such difficulties.
Its a piece that can on rare occasions fail if the pistol is not operated as intended, but not a glaring fault in the design.

With a pistol that you yourself have not had in your unbroken custody you can never be sure whether or not it has been abused. The external extractor is easier to check for function and visible damage, so its a worthwhile improvement.

I've replaced enough external extractors on many types of auto loaders to know that these can also fail if the weapon is abused.

Take a look around the BHP internal extractor is prone to breakage. It is known fact. It does not translate to other designs. This is why it was changed to a external extractor. You are 100% correct that hand cambering a round will cause breakage faster but they were still prone to breakage due to its size and geometry.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

Fixing the Flaws
Many of the Hi-Power's flaws were cured over time by the industry, and particularly by FN/Browning. Until 1962, the GP had an internal extractor that was very small, and prone to breakage. Notes master Hi-Power custom gunsmith Bill Laughridge of the Cylinder & Slide Shop, "The fastest way to break one of the old extractors is to lock the slide back, drop a cartridge into the chamber, and then slam the slide on top of it. Always cycle the first round into the chamber out of the magazine!" In '62, however, the Browning was strengthened by a much more durable outside-mounted extractor.

I will also self correct that most BHPs from the 60's have external extractors.

Scouse · January 12, 2013, 03:46 PM

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to clarify when you make sweeping statements that would seem to denigrate a whole nation. You acknowledged you worded it poorly, fine, nothing to do with personal insults.

As to the link, the UK has not banned kitchen knives. That is a news organisation reporting what some doctors said, nothing to do with public policy. There have been plenty of calls for reducing access to guns in the US from the medical community.

Neither of those things have anything to do with the UK banning knives. The knife bin thingy is almost certainly located in one of those areas of London in which young men stab each other in large numbers - so a church group is trying to do outreach and reduce harm by getting the individuals involved, who carry knives for crime, to stop carrying knives. Probably doesn't do all that much, but they are just trying to reduce the impact of violence in their own community.

Often UK people do have a different attitude to weapons than in the USA, it is a cultural difference.

True, NI does have different local laws to GB - but when people talk about "Britain" in an international context (like when discussing the British Army's choice in sidearms, for example) they are generally talking about the UK. In common usage calling someone British means they are a UK citizen.

WVsig · January 12, 2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

So I guess I'm just supposed to take a picture of Prince Harry and your word as proof that there are no older Hi Powers out there in the British military?

No you are supposed to rely on your own intelligence and the fact that your statement does not hold up. Look at what you stated:

Quote:

I think I'll stick with my new production commercial guns instead. Most of the Hi Powers in use by the British were built in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. they are probably pretty worn out by now, hence the contract for replacement.

There is not way that MOST of the BHPs used by the British are from the 40.s 50's and 60's even before the discussion of the internal extractor and the complete lack of part support for these older guns. Even if we grant that some of the external extractors from the 60's are in place there is not way they are the majority. Again look at my comments....

I asserted that your statement has no basis in fact and that the guns which are being used by the Brits do not have internal extractors. I have given evidence and proof for my assertions. You have not been able to demonstrate a single piece of evidence to support your claim. So at this point I stand by my original statement.

If you would like to offer up some I am all ears.....

Auto426 · January 12, 2013, 03:53 PM

You can stand by your original statement all you want, but so far it and a picture of Prince Harry are all you have to back it up.

manta49 · January 12, 2013, 03:56 PM

Quote:

The gun laws of North Ireland differ from those of Great Britain.

The post said UK N Ireland is part of the UK. All the other firearms in my post are available just not handguns. Black powder handguns are also legal in the rest of the UK.

WVsig · January 12, 2013, 03:57 PM

Another pic plus a lot of common sense and logical reasoning have lead myself and others to see the lack of foundation in your statements in this thread.

Auto426 · January 12, 2013, 04:01 PM

So now you have two pictures, that must make it true.

**Mal H** · January 12, 2013, 04:05 PM

As someone said earlier, this thread seemed to be contentious from the gitgo. There is a lot of misunderstanding of the British military demonstrated here. I'd wager some big bucks, most of those who say they have no military wouldn't want to go up against a single British soldier. I know who I'd put my money on.

Anyway - closed.

January 12, 2013, 03:32 PM	#55
Pico Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2002 Location: Ga Posts: 515	UK pistol carry The pictures of UK soldiers carrying mid chest are great. The US military should consider that concept. Only a bad idea if you are kissing dirt for cover. BTW I have English and Irish ancestry, been to the UK twice, would go back ANY time, and do not appreciate any of my fellow American gun enthusiasts slandering our best ally. I hope this one is locked if there are any more rude comments. Pico Last edited by Pico; January 12, 2013 at 03:33 PM. Reason: syntax

January 12, 2013, 03:42 PM	#57
Auto426 Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,323	So I guess I'm just supposed to take a picture of Prince Harry and your word as proof that there are no older Hi Powers out there in the British military? __________________ *"Si vis pacem, para bellum"* - If you want peace, prepare for war.

January 12, 2013, 03:53 PM	#61
Auto426 Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,323	You can stand by your original statement all you want, but so far it and a picture of Prince Harry are all you have to back it up. __________________ *"Si vis pacem, para bellum"* - If you want peace, prepare for war.

January 12, 2013, 03:57 PM	#63
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	Another pic plus a lot of common sense and logical reasoning have lead myself and others to see the lack of foundation in your statements in this thread. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

January 12, 2013, 04:01 PM	#64
Auto426 Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,323	So now you have two pictures, that must make it true. __________________ *"Si vis pacem, para bellum"* - If you want peace, prepare for war.

January 12, 2013, 02:42 PM	#51
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	I had not heard of any difficulty with the internal extractor except with single loading. The 1911 with that same type extractor does not seem to have had such difficulties. Its a piece that can on rare occasions fail if the pistol is not operated as intended, but not a glaring fault in the design. With a pistol that you yourself have not had in your unbroken custody you can never be sure whether or not it has been abused. The external extractor is easier to check for function and visible damage, so its a worthwhile improvement. I've replaced enough external extractors on many types of auto loaders to know that these can also fail if the weapon is abused.

January 12, 2013, 03:46 PM	#59
Scouse Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 133	I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to clarify when you make sweeping statements that would seem to denigrate a whole nation. You acknowledged you worded it poorly, fine, nothing to do with personal insults. As to the link, the UK has not banned kitchen knives. That is a news organisation reporting what some doctors said, nothing to do with public policy. There have been plenty of calls for reducing access to guns in the US from the medical community. Neither of those things have anything to do with the UK banning knives. The knife bin thingy is almost certainly located in one of those areas of London in which young men stab each other in large numbers - so a church group is trying to do outreach and reduce harm by getting the individuals involved, who carry knives for crime, to stop carrying knives. Probably doesn't do all that much, but they are just trying to reduce the impact of violence in their own community. Often UK people do have a different attitude to weapons than in the USA, it is a cultural difference. True, NI does have different local laws to GB - but when people talk about "Britain" in an international context (like when discussing the British Army's choice in sidearms, for example) they are generally talking about the UK. In common usage calling someone British means they are a UK citizen.

January 12, 2013, 04:05 PM	#65
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	As someone said earlier, this thread seemed to be contentious from the gitgo. There is a lot of misunderstanding of the British military demonstrated here. I'd wager some big bucks, most of those who say they have no military wouldn't want to go up against a single British soldier. I know who I'd put my money on. Anyway - closed.