Shooting a PG only shotgun(Groan)....

Dave McC · October 1, 2002, 06:05 PM

OK, boysngirls, here's how to shoot that POC that I've been telling you NOT to get.

And if you screw this up, I'm not liable for tendonitis, arthritis,property damage or reckless endangerment charges.

First, get in some dry fire practice WITH A WEAPON KNOWN TO BE EMPTY by:

With the weapon gripped in both hands, advance your support side foot until the heel of same is a bit forward of the toe of your other Ninja Sneaker.

Bend your support side knee until you're almost forced to step forward. You should be leaning into the shotgun.Keep your firing side knee straight but not locked.

Your firing side forearm should be about parallel to the ground, and pressed into your abdomen on your strong side.

Your support side elbow HAS to be locked straight. Otherwise, you'll hit high/left,trust me on that.

Practice this until you think you have it down, then head for the range.

Use a range with a ridiculously high berm. Trust me on this also. I suggest you start at 5 yards or so.

Load up ONE round, acquire the target and fire it off. Pump as if you had more ammo, and note that the muzzle swings through a fairly large arc as you do so. Training and practice can help that, but only to a point.Note also that it takes a little longer to be ready for that next shot opp.

Fire off a few more rounds and note that it's harder by far to centerpunch the target than it is to do same from the shoulder.

I HAD to do this at 15 and 25 yards as part of a really unrealistic qualifier at one point. It took a fair amount of practice and lots of duty 00 to score 90% or better, which I had to do to keep my instructor's certification.

Now that you know how, make a mental note to shoot from the shoulder at anything past contact distance and put a real stock back on.Sell the PG to someone you don't like.

Questions, comments, donations?....

labgrade · October 1, 2002, 07:38 PM

What & huh!?

You (usually) give great advise, Dave, but may be me ... I just don't get it.

Please explain further. I'm at a loss here.

Monkeyleg · October 1, 2002, 09:56 PM

Labgrade, I think Dave was describing how to engage in masochistic activities without the investment in the leather restraints and collars. Department picks up the cost.

C.R.Sam · October 1, 2002, 10:23 PM

Pay attention to Dave.

His instructions sound very similar to those given by an AutoBurgler sales rep some thirty years ago. He then demonstrated and made it look decent.

Then it was time for the prospects to try it. NOBODY could have fired a second shot in a safe direction. They weren't payin enough attention to the instruction.

And the AutoBurgler was a MERE 20GA.

Sam

PJR · October 1, 2002, 11:18 PM

Everybody has to get the PG pump gun out of their system at some point so go out and do it Dave's way.

A few years ago, I put a Pachmayr pistol grip on my 870. It's probably the most "comfortable" of the pistol grips. A couple of range sessions showed how generally useless and uncomfortable they are. They sure do look cool though.

Try holding it like a pistol if you've got the arm strength. Both hands on the grip, arms extended and touch off a 3" slug. Oddly enough, it was the least uncomfortable shooting position as long as you let your arms roll with the recoil. I let my brother-in-law try it as well and he only recently began speaking to me again.

Paul

Dave McC · October 2, 2002, 05:10 AM

Here's the story, guys....

I get,uh, pestered from time to time by folks that just will not believe me when I say that hip shooting and/or using a PG only stock is egregious in real life. These folks want me to tell them the secret of hip/PG shooting.

After all, if Chuck Norris can whack and stack 'em with a sawed off on TV, Manly Men should be able to do so easily in the real world.

Seeing someone like Tom Knapp trickshooting clays from the hip makes it harder. Of course, he's a world class shooter who had rewritten the record book more than once, but that doesn't seem to cross these folks' minds.Nor does the thousands of rounds Mr Knapp goes through each year acquiring and polishing his skills.

And, just like building the Pyramids, if you spend enough effort, time and cash you'll end up with something.But,spending all those resources on learning to shoot more conventionally will make you abso-freakin' deadly.

Anyway, we now have this in the Archives, so I can point the reality-challenged to it.

Sam, quite a few A/Bs were made in 20 gauge, some in 28, and one was made in 16. Anyone firing that one off more than once had a high pain threshold and wrists like Popeye.

And, Paul, try a slug from a dueling pistol type of style, one handed. Been there, did that, not to be repeated....

Marcus · October 6, 2002, 01:32 PM

Dave have you had any experience with dual pistol gripped shotguns? I`m a full stock guy myself but a friend of mine just had to have a Mossberg Persuader.

The one he bought was the 8 shot model and had a Choate front pistol grip on it (he bought it VERY SLIGHTLY used). From the hip it was predictably inaccurate (huge understatement!) but when fired from just below eye level with the support arm fully extended and locked it wasn`t all that bad. It was still slower and somewhat awkward but good hits weren`t all that hard to make. Believe it or not he actually used that gun for small game/crows etc. for several years with decent sucess. Marcus

Al Thompson · October 6, 2002, 02:03 PM

Marcus, Dave said in another thread something to the effect, given the time and cost to get proficient with a PG only SG, if you spent the same amount of resources with a conventional shotgun, you would get much better results. "Truely deadly" is the exact, IIRC.

I agree. I have two sets of pistol grips in my junk box, one for the 870, one for the 1300. Had the folding stock 870. Simply a case of cool over function.

Dave McC · October 6, 2002, 02:47 PM

Marcus, there's a very good reason why your buddy picked that one up slightly used.

And, firing from a raised position instead of pimp style will give a little better result, but it still is a distant second to a conventional fired as the Diety intended us to do.

I fired a dual grip Winchester owned by a student. No worse than a PG,no better.BTW, next lesson, that student had a real stock back on, and never ever mentioned PGs again.

Note also that the method at the start of this thread is usable with a standard stock. Still a distant second place, unfortunately.

Thanks, Giz.

A little history....

Around 1981, the Powers That Be in Md Corrections decreed that all troops at the institution I was assigned to would qualify with a folding stock and from the hip.We also taught "Skip Shooting", ricocheting birdshot off the pavement for riot suppression.

A few of us instructors got together and tried to find the best way to work with this silly dictum. With the help of some Feds, we devised that hip shooting technique and got ready to instruct and qualify about 300 rookie COs.It was a grade A, industrial strength FUBAR of record proportions.

Most had trouble qualifying with the standard 870.More had probs with the folder,and some had their cheeks cut from that nasty folder that Remington recalled. When the decision was made to remove those folders from the line, lots of folks were happy, and among the happiest were us instructors.

Do you see why I've little taste for folders and hip shooting?....

KSFreeman · October 6, 2002, 04:13 PM

The best way to let a nimrod get the "shoot the cool PG shotgun" out of his system, is to let him do it. After the yelling, bleeding, eye surgery or dental work, they will learn not to shoot them.

Pain is a great teacher.

CRUSHER · October 6, 2002, 05:36 PM

LOL Dave I agre hole heartedly
Ive seen the same thing here in Ky corrections CERT
Even went so far as to have two 870s chopped to 9 inches "entry guns" Should have seen some of the guys try o shoot them
Even the skip fireing thing here too
Small world!
You gave Good info by the way Dave

Dave McC · October 7, 2002, 04:49 AM

KS, pain is G*d's way of telling you you're doing something wrong. We learn from our scars, or at least we should.

Crusher, idiocy seems to be a requirement for Correctional Brass. I can recall a couple that could barely cross the street on the green light. It would have been funnier if they weren't getting good officers hurt. Good luck, and retire the minute you're elegible.

Robby from Long Island · October 11, 2002, 07:07 PM

I remember shooting a buddies PG only 12 guage many years ago, and after the first round was fired, giving it back to him because I had no idea where the second was going to go.

The gun twisted so badly in my hands, control was impossible. There was also the feeling of pain in wrists and elbows.

Couple of years after that I still bought a Benelli M1 Super 90 tactical with pistol grip. But also having a shoulder stock as in a conventional form makes firing very easy as you're not only using the PG.

Have to admit at time of purchase, looking cool was a big consideration and could have purchased the gun without PG, but even now don't feel it to be a disadvantage.

Safe shooting.

zxc · October 11, 2002, 09:40 PM

dunno how you shoot a PG shotgun without the vented barrel guard...double cool. Main HD for now is the Mossy 20inch Cruiser.

Correia · October 12, 2002, 03:17 PM

Dave,

You forgot to add the proper technique for shooting your PG shotgun while doing Ninja backflips.

Also could you please give us advice on how to shoot with a PG shotgun in each hand?

powderific · October 12, 2002, 08:18 PM

My dad has an Ithaca 37 that has a pistol grip on it, I shot it about 20 times and that was more than enough for me. Every time I shot waves of pain went through my wrist, not an experiance I would like to repeat any time soon.

One question though... are there any handcannons that have a similar amount of recoil compared to a PG shotgun? Seems to me that one of those 30 06 lone eagles from magnum research would kick plenty...

Dave McC · October 13, 2002, 09:02 AM

Corriea, that'll be covered as well as shooting a PG shotgun in each hand while doing Ninja back flips and kicks in my new training video, called "Enter me, Draggin' Something". Pay attention to the section on carpal tunnel surgery. The video's only $99.95,plus S&H. Cashier's checks and money orders only.

Powderific, back in the days of my misspent and highly enjoyable youth, I had a Manly Man for a friend who oozed testosterone from every pore, and had a penchant for the TC Contender with custom bbls. One was a 50-70, another a shortened, belted wildcat magnum shooting something like a 358 Winchester on steriods and mescaline. While we enjoyed plinking with his 30-30 bbl, the other two were more or less intolerable after 5 shots. Sometimes I'd get a nosebleed.

A PG shotgun kicks about like that, even if I'm wearing Ninja sneakers and black BDUs.

October 1, 2002, 06:05 PM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Shooting a PG only shotgun(Groan).... OK, boysngirls, here's how to shoot that POC that I've been telling you NOT to get. And if you screw this up, I'm not liable for tendonitis, arthritis,property damage or reckless endangerment charges. First, get in some dry fire practice WITH A WEAPON KNOWN TO BE EMPTY by: With the weapon gripped in both hands, advance your support side foot until the heel of same is a bit forward of the toe of your other Ninja Sneaker. Bend your support side knee until you're almost forced to step forward. You should be leaning into the shotgun.Keep your firing side knee straight but not locked. Your firing side forearm should be about parallel to the ground, and pressed into your abdomen on your strong side. Your support side elbow HAS to be locked straight. Otherwise, you'll hit high/left,trust me on that. Practice this until you think you have it down, then head for the range. Use a range with a ridiculously high berm. Trust me on this also. I suggest you start at 5 yards or so. Load up ONE round, acquire the target and fire it off. Pump as if you had more ammo, and note that the muzzle swings through a fairly large arc as you do so. Training and practice can help that, but only to a point.Note also that it takes a little longer to be ready for that next shot opp. Fire off a few more rounds and note that it's harder by far to centerpunch the target than it is to do same from the shoulder. I HAD to do this at 15 and 25 yards as part of a really unrealistic qualifier at one point. It took a fair amount of practice and lots of duty 00 to score 90% or better, which I had to do to keep my instructor's certification. Now that you know how, make a mental note to shoot from the shoulder at anything past contact distance and put a real stock back on.Sell the PG to someone you don't like. Questions, comments, donations?.... Last edited by Dave McC; October 2, 2002 at 04:38 AM.

October 1, 2002, 09:56 PM	#3
Monkeyleg Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Posts: 4,625	Labgrade, I think Dave was describing how to engage in masochistic activities without the investment in the leather restraints and collars. Department picks up the cost. __________________ ACOG Scopes, EOTech Sights, Crimson Trace, LensAndLasers

October 6, 2002, 02:03 PM	#8
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Marcus, Dave said in another thread something to the effect, given the time and cost to get proficient with a PG only SG, if you spent the same amount of resources with a conventional shotgun, you would get much better results. "Truely deadly" is the exact, IIRC. I agree. I have two sets of pistol grips in my junk box, one for the 870, one for the 1300. Had the folding stock 870. Simply a case of cool over function. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

October 6, 2002, 04:13 PM	#10
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	The best way to let a nimrod get the "shoot the cool PG shotgun" out of his system, is to let him do it. After the yelling, bleeding, eye surgery or dental work, they will learn not to shoot them. Pain is a great teacher. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

October 6, 2002, 05:36 PM	#11
CRUSHER Member Join Date: August 1, 2002 Location: Ky Posts: 62	LOL Dave I agre hole heartedly Ive seen the same thing here in Ky corrections CERT Even went so far as to have two 870s chopped to 9 inches "entry guns" Should have seen some of the guys try o shoot them Even the skip fireing thing here too Small world! You gave Good info by the way Dave __________________ "We do not rise to the level of our expections, But fall to the level of our training"

October 1, 2002, 07:38 PM	#2
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	What & huh!? You (usually) give great advise, Dave, but may be me ... I just don't get it. Please explain further. I'm at a loss here.

October 1, 2002, 10:23 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Pay attention to Dave. His instructions sound very similar to those given by an AutoBurgler sales rep some thirty years ago. He then demonstrated and made it look decent. Then it was time for the prospects to try it. NOBODY could have fired a second shot in a safe direction. They weren't payin enough attention to the instruction. And the AutoBurgler was a MERE 20GA. Sam

October 1, 2002, 11:18 PM	#5
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Everybody has to get the PG pump gun out of their system at some point so go out and do it Dave's way. A few years ago, I put a Pachmayr pistol grip on my 870. It's probably the most "comfortable" of the pistol grips. A couple of range sessions showed how generally useless and uncomfortable they are. They sure do look cool though. Try holding it like a pistol if you've got the arm strength. Both hands on the grip, arms extended and touch off a 3" slug. Oddly enough, it was the least uncomfortable shooting position as long as you let your arms roll with the recoil. I let my brother-in-law try it as well and he only recently began speaking to me again. Paul

October 2, 2002, 05:10 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Here's the story, guys.... I get,uh, pestered from time to time by folks that just will not believe me when I say that hip shooting and/or using a PG only stock is egregious in real life. These folks want me to tell them the secret of hip/PG shooting. After all, if Chuck Norris can whack and stack 'em with a sawed off on TV, Manly Men should be able to do so easily in the real world. Seeing someone like Tom Knapp trickshooting clays from the hip makes it harder. Of course, he's a world class shooter who had rewritten the record book more than once, but that doesn't seem to cross these folks' minds.Nor does the thousands of rounds Mr Knapp goes through each year acquiring and polishing his skills. And, just like building the Pyramids, if you spend enough effort, time and cash you'll end up with something.But,spending all those resources on learning to shoot more conventionally will make you abso-freakin' deadly. Anyway, we now have this in the Archives, so I can point the reality-challenged to it. Sam, quite a few A/Bs were made in 20 gauge, some in 28, and one was made in 16. Anyone firing that one off more than once had a high pain threshold and wrists like Popeye. And, Paul, try a slug from a dueling pistol type of style, one handed. Been there, did that, not to be repeated....

October 6, 2002, 01:32 PM	#7
Marcus Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1998 Posts: 1,156	Dave have you had any experience with dual pistol gripped shotguns? I`m a full stock guy myself but a friend of mine just had to have a Mossberg Persuader. The one he bought was the 8 shot model and had a Choate front pistol grip on it (he bought it VERY SLIGHTLY used). From the hip it was predictably inaccurate (huge understatement!) but when fired from just below eye level with the support arm fully extended and locked it wasn`t all that bad. It was still slower and somewhat awkward but good hits weren`t all that hard to make. Believe it or not he actually used that gun for small game/crows etc. for several years with decent sucess. Marcus

October 6, 2002, 02:47 PM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Marcus, there's a very good reason why your buddy picked that one up slightly used. And, firing from a raised position instead of pimp style will give a little better result, but it still is a distant second to a conventional fired as the Diety intended us to do. I fired a dual grip Winchester owned by a student. No worse than a PG,no better.BTW, next lesson, that student had a real stock back on, and never ever mentioned PGs again. Note also that the method at the start of this thread is usable with a standard stock. Still a distant second place, unfortunately. Thanks, Giz. A little history.... Around 1981, the Powers That Be in Md Corrections decreed that all troops at the institution I was assigned to would qualify with a folding stock and from the hip.We also taught "Skip Shooting", ricocheting birdshot off the pavement for riot suppression. A few of us instructors got together and tried to find the best way to work with this silly dictum. With the help of some Feds, we devised that hip shooting technique and got ready to instruct and qualify about 300 rookie COs.It was a grade A, industrial strength FUBAR of record proportions. Most had trouble qualifying with the standard 870.More had probs with the folder,and some had their cheeks cut from that nasty folder that Remington recalled. When the decision was made to remove those folders from the line, lots of folks were happy, and among the happiest were us instructors. Do you see why I've little taste for folders and hip shooting?....

October 7, 2002, 04:49 AM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	KS, pain is G*d's way of telling you you're doing something wrong. We learn from our scars, or at least we should. Crusher, idiocy seems to be a requirement for Correctional Brass. I can recall a couple that could barely cross the street on the green light. It would have been funnier if they weren't getting good officers hurt. Good luck, and retire the minute you're elegible.

October 11, 2002, 07:07 PM	#13
Robby from Long Island Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2001 Location: North Babylon, N.Y. Posts: 157	I remember shooting a buddies PG only 12 guage many years ago, and after the first round was fired, giving it back to him because I had no idea where the second was going to go. The gun twisted so badly in my hands, control was impossible. There was also the feeling of pain in wrists and elbows. Couple of years after that I still bought a Benelli M1 Super 90 tactical with pistol grip. But also having a shoulder stock as in a conventional form makes firing very easy as you're not only using the PG. Have to admit at time of purchase, looking cool was a big consideration and could have purchased the gun without PG, but even now don't feel it to be a disadvantage. Safe shooting. __________________ Robby

October 11, 2002, 09:40 PM	#14
zxc Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Posts: 105	dunno how you shoot a PG shotgun without the vented barrel guard...double cool. Main HD for now is the Mossy 20inch Cruiser.

October 12, 2002, 03:17 PM	#15
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Dave, You forgot to add the proper technique for shooting your PG shotgun while doing Ninja backflips. Also could you please give us advice on how to shoot with a PG shotgun in each hand?

October 12, 2002, 08:18 PM	#16
powderific Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2000 Location: South Dakota Posts: 137	My dad has an Ithaca 37 that has a pistol grip on it, I shot it about 20 times and that was more than enough for me. Every time I shot waves of pain went through my wrist, not an experiance I would like to repeat any time soon. One question though... are there any handcannons that have a similar amount of recoil compared to a PG shotgun? Seems to me that one of those 30 06 lone eagles from magnum research would kick plenty...

October 13, 2002, 09:02 AM	#17
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Corriea, that'll be covered as well as shooting a PG shotgun in each hand while doing Ninja back flips and kicks in my new training video, called "Enter me, Draggin' Something". Pay attention to the section on carpal tunnel surgery. The video's only $99.95,plus S&H. Cashier's checks and money orders only. Powderific, back in the days of my misspent and highly enjoyable youth, I had a Manly Man for a friend who oozed testosterone from every pore, and had a penchant for the TC Contender with custom bbls. One was a 50-70, another a shortened, belted wildcat magnum shooting something like a 358 Winchester on steriods and mescaline. While we enjoyed plinking with his 30-30 bbl, the other two were more or less intolerable after 5 shots. Sometimes I'd get a nosebleed. A PG shotgun kicks about like that, even if I'm wearing Ninja sneakers and black BDUs.